She won't point

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:32 am

Hello all,

It has been a while since I've posted here; rest assured that I browse through daily.

I've run into another issue with my "pup." She's roughly 13.5 mths old now, and has great bird drive. The only problem is, she likes to run right in on the birds now and flush them. Last fall/winter she would point every time, albeit from a distance too close to the bird, but they were wild pheasants, and wouldn't let her get close. I sent her to training this last spring to polish up her obedience, and keep her into birds during the spring nesting season. The problem is, she won't point anymore. She'll crowd right on in until the bird flushes.

I've been going up to the trainers weekly to try and fix this, but to no avail. She knows the birds cannot get out of the bird launchers, so she'll run right in on them, even if you launch them early. She'll occasionally point planted chukar, but still gets in way to close.

Any suggestions?

Have a great day.

Jon

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:14 am

Hi Jon........You say you go up to the trainer weekly. When you are there, what does he/she do to help correct the problem during the sessions? Does your dog point when you are there working with trainer?

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:21 am

We have been doing repetitions of her finding released chukars. She will find them quickly, and simply bust in on them. They will fly away, but that is the extent of the training. She will have her good days where she'll point, but from a very close distance.

I guess the trainer thinks that she'll just catch on after a bunch of repitions, but I'm beginning to think a new strategy is needed.

Thanks,

Jon

gr_elliott · Post by **gr_elliott** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:55 am

you mentioned a remote launcher earlier...what if you guys loaded up one and poped the bird out as soon as the dog showed she get the scent?

in my limited experiance I would think that she would figure it out pretty quick. get scent, stop and point, otherwise bird leaves and fun is over

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:03 am

We tried the launchers a while back. It didn't seem like we were making progress with them, so we thought we'd try the released birds; hoping that more bird scent, and less launcher scent might make a difference. It obviously didn't, so maybe we should go back to the launchers.
:roll:

Jon

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:18 am

put her on a check cord. use a pinch collar. work her into the bird, and when she scents it, restrain her with the check cord. would help if she knows whoa, does she? she will undoubtedly run around on the end of the check cord. work down the check cord to her, without letting her get closer to the birds. physically set her up into a point, command whoa, and stroke her. it is important that once you pick a point where you stop her with the check cord, you do not let her advance past that.

then launch the bird. do not let her chase. if you do not have remote releasers, you will need an assistant. and i would suggest you find an assistant and not use releasers, at least not for awhile. they know when a bird is in a release trap. they can smell the trap. so take the trap out of it, just dizzy the bird and hand plant it. have the assistant flush the bird, blank it, do not allow her to run after it. heel her away, and then work her into the next bird if you have one out in the field. repeat the process. when you work her into the second bird, do not let her delay chase after the first one.

if you want to have a fully broke dog, it sounds like now is the time to start that training. if you don't care if she is fully broke, but do want her staunch, the check cord work will get you to that point also.

check cords are easy to make. buy some 3/8 nylon braided rope, 30' is good, buy a snap and tie it to the end with a bowline. i like to put a couple of knots spaced along the rope. something to grab on to. use gloves.

be really sticky about demanding that she stand for the flush. if she starts moving around while your assistant is flushing, go hand over hand down the cord, pick her up, set her up, command whoa, and make her stand. don't allow her any more retrieves of birds until she gets to where you want her in terms of her staunchness.

Jacob Bush, in our area, has a training group going. They train at Game Unlimited in WI. He is vcshorthairs on the www.pointingdogjournal.com website. if you are not already partcipating, contact him and join up. I here they are doing good work. if you want, i will have birds that can be used for training in about two weeks, and you can come over to my place, i will show you how.

check cord is really the only way to solve this. i have never had great luck with the idea of popping release traps early, they just learn to blow in on the bird faster cause it is going to go.

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:39 am

Thanks for the info John.

She does know "Whoa," and does very well at it. The trainer did a good job of polishing her up on the whoa command.

I have not heard of this training group. I'll have to look into it. Is this one of the NAVHDA groups?

I am considering taking her to the NAVHDA UT level, so I am looking for a "broke" dog in the long run.

It would be great if I could come out and have you show me how you do it.

When you say "restrain her," do you mean give her a pop with the pinch collar and then hold her back, or just let her stop herself by leaning into the collar?

Jon

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:01 am

When you say "restrain her," do you mean give her a pop with the pinch collar and then hold her back, or just let her stop herself by leaning into the collar?

If you have the pinch collar on, best to give her a pop to stop her, and then restrain her. They usually do not give you much resistance if you have them on a pinch collar.

Then set her up and stroke her, say "whoa" quietly a couple times, see if she will firm up into a point. If she does, the next step is to gently push forward on her rear end, hand below the tail. She should resist, and this will firm up the point.

Am getting the birds into the johnny house this weekend, so it will be two weeks before they can fly. Maybe send me an email in about ten days, and we will set a date. Look up vc though, it is not a NAVHDA group, although alot of the guys have NAVHDA background, just a training group over on the east side of town. They have lots of birds right now, and train every wednesday. Will try find Jake's email and pm you.

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:21 pm

Jon, all due respect to your current trainer; but strictly from what you have said, I agree.......a different approach is needed. What seems to be taking place is that your trainer hopes the dog catches on to the program without any type of encouragement in the form of training. Right now your dog thinks
this is all a game. Instead of catching on to the right result, he is ingraining really bad habits. Don't get me wrong. Very often a dog can be made steady on point etc through the use of launchers and helpers kicking up dizzied birds....But in this case you need to go back to basics. "WAGON" has given you a great advice and a good starting point to begin. I am glad you have not resorted to the idea of using an e-collar. That could and would have undesired results at this juncture.

Has your dog been introduced to a gun? If so, when she did point and hold properly, was a bird ever shot for her?

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:20 pm

Sounds a very clever pup to me. Worked it all out. You can't fool her.

Wild birds. Forget planted birds, the dogs not silly.

Maybe the bird launcher soon as she shows she has scented them.

But wild birds you really need to find for her.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:44 pm

Remote launchers! Repeat this, dog scents birds, you launch birds. Do this until the dog figures out it can't get close. This will work, just repeat this over and over.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:42 pm

Commad lead work with birds and restraint or check cord ...any method where you stop her from encroching on birds...the method that is being used the more it is allowed the more your training this young to to continue that ...the dog will not grow out of the behavour anything you allow her to do she will continue on doing.

If she knows whoa she is learning that bids mean i do not have to listen to commands

Launchers same thing..she has learned that the launcher only measn teh bird will pop when she makes scent..doesn't matter
from earlier you also posted she was allowed to point close...so is has only continued what she was allowed to do.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:42 pm

And here is yet another idea...............

Plant some birds wether they are in launchers or not adn CC pup into the scent cone. If pup trys to charge in on them tug on her to move on pay no attention to her that she found a bird you are not interested in that one. Move on to planted bird #2. Repeat Step #1 if pup tryes to charge in. Hopefully by the time you get to #3 pup figured out that if she stops and points the bird you are suddenly interested. If you can only put out a couple birds keep working them around in a circle untill pup sticks a bird. It does not matter that pup knows there are birds there you are kinda telling pup what you want it to do without words.

IMO I would consider that your pup is like my 2 yr old that all he wants is to see the bird. This excersize helped in getting him to start sticking birds. With my dog I would work on one bird at a time untill I got what I wanted than we moved on to the next bird. It didnt take him long till he caught on.

FWIW

Mo · Post by Mo » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:20 pm

And here is another idea for dogs that like to make the birds fly... Checkcord the dog cross wind on some light planted good flying birds maybe 10 feet away.. The dog will either point when it gets a nose full of scent or run at the bird and knock it... I allow them to knock the bird if that is what they want to do... I stop them and make them stand after they have put the bird up.. I use a west style leather pinch collar and I let the dog run at the birds until he/she decides to point.. All I take away from them is the chase... This will put most all dogs to pointing thier birds hard, once that it done you just polish and finish to whatever stage of training you want... For me I want the dogs to run at and knock the birds at 1st.. I will stay in control with the checkcord so the dog does not run a bird down and catch it once I start breaking them.. Just another idea.

Mo

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:49 pm

you guys are all giving advice that is good for situations different than this dog. but look at the facts. the dog is 13.5 months. it has seen birds since it was just a few weeks old. it has been with a trainer and seen lots of birds. the trainer has been trying remote launchers it sounds like, but the dog is just getting worse. with some dogs this behaviour spirals out of control, and they just become breakers, chasers and flushers. remotes don't stop it. they react to the remote launcher by running in faster, cause they figure out there is a slight delay and they want to be right on top of the box when it opens.

wild birds won't fix it either. dog will bust em for the love of the chase. have seen dogs with this particular behaviour go on point on wild birds, and then break and circle the bird, roading in and back, in and back, trying to get the bird to fly, they love to chase so much.

so we have a dog that knows birds, has seen plenty of birds, was pointing at one point. am pretty sure jon hunted her last year. the building up of the dog to where it just flat loves birds, has been done. maybe a little overdone. the dog is mature to the point where it can take some pressure, not a pup anymore.

the way to fix it is check cord and restraint.

ecollar does not work well on this issue. dog can see ecollar as punishment and you may have to use the collar quite a bit, and at a strong setting, cause this is resistant behaviour, and the next problem you will have is a dog that blinks. ecollar works around birds when dog has been taught what to do with the check cord, it knows what it is supposed to do, and you need to transition from check cord to no check cord.

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:12 pm

Amen.....

Lots of good advice for you Jon. But as I mentioned in my earlier post.......For the time being try to work on the restraint issue that Wagon has laid out for you. All of the suggestions posted are really good in different circumstances. You have an issue that really requires some SERIOUS "conversation" about DON'T MOVE PERIOD!!!!!!! You have to be able to STOP the dog in it's tracks RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. You refer to your dog as a "pup".....try to move beyond that and think "Dog, that is in control, not you."

Go pick up those birds....learn how to dizzy them...get yourself a helper.....grab a CC and start taking control of the contacts your dog has with birds. I'll even wager that John will give you a demonstration of how to translate his words into action.

Probably a good idea to join that training group. But sometimes training groups serve to confuse more than help. Put a group together and you get a lot of different ideas of what to do and how to do it. Pretty soon you and your dog are confused beyond belief. You end up with a little of this, a little of that and nothing consistant.

TIP.......Go and watch....leave dog at home for a couple of sessions. Listen and watch. Stand back, don't try to get advice about your dog to early. Form your own opinions about who is there.....who does what....who works hard........who seems to know everything (probably not a good choice to help you)....who just quietly goes about his/her business effectively (I would opt to have this person on my radar for later)........who makes you feel most welcome. After a couple sessions bring your dog and DEFINE your goals and needs. Sometimes these groups tend to get a little confusing. What you are looking for is help with an issue you are working on. You need a "helper" to assist you in your program. Decide from former sessions who you think is one of the more "collected" members of the group and ask them to help you with what you want to do. Plug ears to a a lot of other suggestions and focus on the needs of your dog and your plan to meet those needs.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:36 am

Trying to cure man made problems with man made solutions, creates more man made problems IMO. Let a bunch of real birds (it may take awhile), some copper plated 6's, and a bunch of miles under your boots bring back her natural pointing instinct.

Just my .02

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:52 pm

Thank you all for your suggestions. There is definitely many options. This is my first pointing dog, and the first dog I've ever trained(Go figure

)

A bit more about my dog (Holly) might help everyone better assess the situation.

Holly is currently 13.5 mths old. Her pedigree can be seen in the link in my sig. She was run in a large nature preserve near my house since she was a couple of months old, letting her roam without a word from me. She found wild pheasants there daily, usually around 5 a day. She would point these about 75% of the time, and I wouldn't say a word. She was always allowed to experience new things without any interference from me, unless it was something hazardous to her health. This past winter I took her through a NAVHDA pointing dog obedience course. She caught on to every command extremely fast, and seemed to get bored with the classes about halfway through each one. This last spring I then sent her to the trainer(who has 13+ years as a NAVHDA judge, and as a GSP trainer) to keep her into birds and to finish her on all of the commands. She won't budge on WHOA, DOWN, etc. I think she is just too smart for the launchers and the planted birds. I personally feel that the launchers are probably the best way to ensure reliable pointing from your dogs, as you take the handler out of the equation, better representing actual hunting scenarios.

I feel that John is right in that she is beyond ready to be broke. I don't think that bird launchers are the answer anymore. I along with my trainer are probably at fault for that one. That is a lesson well learned for me, and will be taken carefully with my future dogs.

I am going to the trainers this weekend, and we will try the check cording techniques. The trainer is not charging me for this time by the way, since she wants to fulfill her end of the contract and get my dog staunch on birds.

Please feel free to offer any further opinions you may have.

Have a great day everyone.

Jon

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:38 pm

Oh yes, I forgot on my post after you launch the bird stop that dog from running with a checkcord. You have to stop the chasing. I can't believe I forgot that. I don't ever let my dogs chase that is probably why I forgot it.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:16 pm

Dogs can definetly get launcher-wise, I describe it as "rushing the laucher". They know it is sitting there and going to pop, so they try to beat it. That is why I use the launchers for a limited time, and for that time they are great. I expose pup to them only enough to insure they are pointing the pigeons and handling the launchers ok. I then make sure they know Whoa well, and in the field before re-exposing them. Sometimes it just takes real good whoa training, then taking them back to the launcher. I train whoa with a rear collar on, then when we go to the field I will hook the CC to it. At the point the dog starts his rush just give a slight tug, stopping him, whether you choose to say Whoa or not, many times he will then point. I always stop him when bird pops, no more chase, then kick in front of him letting him know this is what you want, release and go to the next. The game will stop, as it will no longer be fun and pointing should resume. I will keep a dog on launchers from 2-5 weeks depending on how fast they start standing, then I will start them on quail.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:45 pm

Thank you, Brenda, that's a wonderful and very useful synopsis!

Best regards,

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:42 am

I took Holly up to the trainers yesterday to work her on somemore birds. I discussed some of the methods suggested here and she agreed that they would work. She did, however, want to try another method of hers first. She wanted to keep the training between the bird and the dog, leaving the handler out of it.
She mentioned that she wanted to the dog to point because it knows if it moves the bird will flush. She said the other methods would be her last resort. Fair enough.

She wanted to try the launchers again, but with a little twist. She set four launchers up out in the field at about a five-ten foot spacing in an arc. We then led Holly downwind of them and released her. She flew through the field in her usual way and suddenly slowed into a point about 15 feet away from the launcher arc. I couldn't believe it! The amount of scent overwhelmed her, along with there being four sources of scent, and it stopped her in her tracks.
I then slowly walked over to Holly and stood next to her and gently whoa'd her. The trainer then walked and kicked the brush in front of Holly. She launched every bird without Holly moving an inch(Not surprising since the trainer did a great job with "Whoa").

So I took Holly swimming to cool off and the trainer reset the launchers; this time with birds that could be killed. We did the same thing. THis time Holly got in a bit closer before she stopped, but she did stop. I picked her up and set her back where she first scented the bird. I then whoa'd her while the trainer kicked, flushed, and shot the bird. Holly unfortunately broke on the shot. We repeated this with the other birds with me holding Holly to prevent her from breaking at the shot. We then heeled her out of the field and called it a day. We are going to repeat this next weekend.

Thoughts and comments are welcome.

Thanks,
Jon

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:57 am

MNGSP wrote:and stood next to her and gently whoa'd her

MNGSP wrote:I then whoa'd her while the trainer

Would you explain your or your trainers reasoning for doing this.

Are you standing there repeating whoa........whoa.........whoa......whoa while the birds are being kicked up?

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:45 am

Sorry, I should have clarified this a bit more.

I gave her the whoa command and stood next to her to prevent her from breaking upon the bird flush/shot. I did not repeatedly say it. I only said it again as a reassurance if she looked as if she was about to break, which she only did on the one bird that was shot. I then held her collar for the rest of the bird sequences.

Jon

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:04 pm

jon-

this is sounding increasingly like the "Music Man" approach to training - just think broke and it will happen. sorry. if this is a local trainer, i might know her too. but i don't like much that i am hearing.

i did like the trainer's idea of using multiple birds to get the dog to stand off. you can accomplish pretty much the same thing by going to different, bigger birds, say using chukar or pheas. instead of quail. or by going to wild birds. but if the dog is an inveterate crowder, it is just a matter of time before the dog is crowding that bird, too. or the whole array of birds.

wild birds will solve the problem of the dog crowding, cause they just won't let it happen. but with a dog that is not staunch, that is deliberately crowding, you run the risk that the dog won't point them at all, just run at them and flush.

you need to do check cord work. the trainer needs to understand this. this "between the bird and the dog" stuff she is using is not going to go anywhere.

what really got me about your description, though, is that here we have a dog that has been having difficulty with crowding, and with not being staunch. so trainer makes one stab at it with the multiple birds, gets a good result with the first try, declares victory, and decides to see if the dog is fully broke, will stand to flush, shot, fall. my, my. she took a step forward with the multiple bird exercise, and then wiped it out by going too far too fast. the dog had a success, and then the trainer made sure that success was immediately followed by a failure, rather than repeating to get another success. or just quitting for the day right there.

the process of steadying and breaking a dog is little building blocks one after the other, each building on the last. when you have a first success at a task, you do not move on yet. no jumping steps. that never works. at each step, you must do enough repetitions so the dog knows the task at that step, before just moving on to the next step. being staunch is one task. being steady to flush is another. being steady to shot is another. being steady to shot and fall is another. just because the dog has learned whoa in the yard does not mean it will obedience whoa and accomplish all these things. in fact, no dog ever does.

also, stepping up beside the dog while it is on point and grabbing it by the collar does not help, it hurts. a dog on point is a focused thing. grab it by the collar and you disturb it physically. like taking someone who is asleep and shaking them. you bring the dog out of its trance, or at the very least, loosen up its focus.

this is why we use check cords. it is ok to sometimes stroke the dog and say "whoa" quietly. if it does not help, at least it does not hurt. it is also ok to push forward on the rump. dogs react to this by resisting, and become even steadier. but grabbing by the collar will physically disturb the dog's point where a check cord does not. if the trainer believes in "between the bird and the dog" having or letting you step in and grab the dog, fatally disturbs that relationship.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:01 pm

SOme of this could also be handler induced...
When we do the point and back with pups...I will handle the pointing dog allowing other to back main reason why newer people have a tendancy to bring the dog right in on birds instead of crossing them down wind checking the command lead or check cord to stop..thus this is training the dog toi crowd birds to start

I also notice with young dogs that have had alot of wing on a string most of them are not happy with scent until they are seeing the bird if allowed

If I have a dog that will not stay still I will stop forward motion by lifting up on the flank area...But generally here this is a dog with high prey drive

Only when they are standing still will the bird be flushed...if the dog starts to move from original point area flushing is stopped

If I have to check and check and check an check...I will do what is neccessary to maintain a dog standing at the original point of scent contact
and will not allow a dog to move from the point after the flush..this will require restraint...I use the rick smith method which has owrked extremely well on pups...
Then the whoa post to e collar transistion also has been extremely successful
Runs the same lines as the collar on flank that Brenda uses

All are successful it is which one you and teh dog can understand and have the most correct timing with that is the best method

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:35 pm

they are not working on backing, they are working on getting the dog staunch, and then apparently fully broke (STW&S)

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:26 pm

Thank you John. That was exactly what I was going to post. Sometimes it seems we get lost between the origunal post and the last one which maybe several down the line. We need to always go back to the original so we can stay on track.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:28 pm

Maybe try reading a post past the first sentence the post really has nothing to do with backing but an obsevation of what I see happen during sessions

As the post deals with some situations that can lead to a dog to wanting to get the bird not point as they MIGHT have been allowed to get too close
The point and back was used to explain a situation if you read the whole thing relates to what happens to handlers leading their dogs ON TOP OF BIRDS before they stop them even with launchers

So By reading an entire post one can gain information..

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:33 pm

yes, i got the gist of it. i did read the whole thing. but like ezzy says, sometimes a thread just gets going in the wrong direction because of speed reading. was just trying to keep it on the subject that MNGSP needs help on.

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:42 pm

Hey everybody,

My dog is having very similar problems to Jon's and the funny thing is that my pup has almost the same breeding. I got my pup from the same breeder, its just that my dog's sire is a pup of Holly's sire; same mother. Seems like there are lots of good solutions on this thread, I just don't know if my trainer would want to try any of them.

He was pointing and holding really well at training for a few weeks. He was even steady to shot and all the sudden he decided he could catch birds and hasn't been pointing at the trainer in about two weeks. They've been working him on releases for over a week but he just seems to be rushing in. The trainer says that he's totally against forcing a dog to point because it can take away from its style or it may not point unless you're right there to enfoce it. He says the only way to fix it is to keep putting birds out until he points again. What do you guys think about this?

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:08 pm

Without more info and actually seeing the pup I would have to go along with your trainer. Thats what you are paying him for. If you don't think he is doing it right then change trainers.

As a general rule I don't think people can make decissions over the net that are better than your vet or your trainer. I would like to think that you made the choice to take the pup there because you liked what he had done with other dogs. If true, then let him train and like I said if you don't thinkk he is doing the job change.

Ezzy