A little issue that needs cleaning up

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pointshootretrieve
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A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:53 am

I have been working a young dog all summer on steadiness, he is doing great for the most part but I see something that is bugging me. Let me start by saying the only pressure this dog has seen around birds other than being picked up and put back if moved is when chasing, I also keep QUIET not saying a word. His points are very staunch for a couple of minutes then he starts flagging and softens a bit and will want to move in when approached for the flush which results in the bird popped and a WOAH command. I would like to see him high and tight for the sequence how would you approach this. I have only shot a few birds when the performance is there probably out of a 50 sequences, he has loads of retrieve so I try and keep that down to a minimum.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by Wildweeds » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:00 am

He softens and flags because even though you think you are not being rough........................ you are,lay off of him and kill,IMO picking a dog up and setting him back is B.S. that serves no purpose,If you were to spill milk on the floor you can't get it back in the glass,the damage is done,if the dog breaks or takes a step,setting it back does nothing to change what has transpired.

Do you have a helper?

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by kninebirddog » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:52 am

I will not set young dogs back..agree that though you think you are being gentle your body language is entirely different to a dog as to the dog you are coming towering over then bending over for the physical contact ...this is all domineering actions to a dogs perspective..do it to much some dogs really do not like the being picked up and will mentally start moving away to pressure and I have seen many dogs that when the owner comes close begin to go downward in anticipation of being picked up and moved back

I like the rick and Ronnie smith method of teaching a cue which means to stop and work on taking the chase out and bring the dog to a stop after the dog has made the commitment working the dog to steady to flush then working on the points

the tail flagging high and tighter in action this is the dog letting you know what the mind is thinking and that is to move closer to the bird/bird scent/ this could be to get a better lock on the bird but most times it is to crowd or to flat go get that bird to the dog.. if the tail and back end is loose while flagging this is a dog going through the motions but is not excited about what is going on
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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:33 am

pointshootretrieve wrote:I have been working a young dog all summer on steadiness, he is doing great for the most part but I see something that is bugging me. Let me start by saying the only pressure this dog has seen around birds other than being picked up and put back if moved is when chasing, I also keep QUIET not saying a word. His points are very staunch for a couple of minutes then he starts flagging and softens a bit and will want to move in when approached for the flush which results in the bird popped and a WOAH command. I would like to see him high and tight for the sequence how would you approach this. I have only shot a few birds when the performance is there probably out of a 50 sequences, he has loads of retrieve so I try and keep that down to a minimum.
I am all for killing birds for a dog. It helps to build desire and keep the enthusiasm level at a high pitch. However, I do not think killing birds is the answer to your particular issue.

Physically picking the dog up and moving it back is a valid strategy for a dog that is creeping, but it can be intimidating. You might have more success actually DRIVING the dog forward... through the bird until it flushes. An e-collar on the belly and a very low nick if the dog moves its feet or creeps can also work, if the dog has been trained with a collar. Having a pocketful of pebbles and throwing a handful of them out in front of the dog as it begins to soften and flag, can really heighten the dog's objectivity, but, like most "tricks" that only works a few times and is best reserved for its "surprise" effect, much like the "exploding quail" trick.

I believe the best and most low pressure way to achieve what you are after is with yardwork. There is pressure, but not around birds. It is obedience type pressure and most dogs can take a goodly amount of obedience pressure without any negative consequences on their birdwork.

I would utilize heel/whoa drills, or barrel, bench or placeboard work, or on the ground... as you prefer...to make the dog understand that stopping and standing is what is expected. Styling a dog up, silently, with gentle but firm hands can have a very calming and reassuring effect on a dog. I personally use a bench and heel/whoa drills for this, but any way you work it is fine as long as you are consistent in your methodology. Mixing up the techniques and routines and such can help to keep it fresh and interesting for the dog. Short play sessions in between Obedience drills also recharge the dog and keep its desire to please at a high level. Pushing a standing dog with a hand, flat against the dog's butt will encourage the dog to dig in and resist the forward pressure. This response will encourage a dog to stand there and grow roots.

Once the dog is stopping and standing in the yard...with style, you can begin to walk out front and simulate a flushing attempt. If the dog lets down, go back, style the dog up, reassure it with your hands, push forward a little ...whatever it takes to get the dog to "assume the position", and after a half minute or so, then go back out front again. Eventually, the dog will stand "at attention" for extended periods in the yard. Then you can start to add distractions like thowing a hat, a handful of leaves and ultimately ...a pigeon.

I believe that a healthy dose of patience, and a program of yardwork, in concert with field work as the dog progresses will get you to the place you want to be with your dog. It is not all that difficult to have a dog stand there like a Marine Major on a parade ground..al the way through flush, shot, the subsequent walk back to the dog and collaring. I can do it and so can you. Patience, persistence, gentle but firm and confident hands and you will get there.

Plan your work and then go out and work your plan. Have a clear idea of what you want to accomplish and a benchmark to indicate success or failure, for each training session.

RayG

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by cjuve » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:41 am

You say that thias is a "Young Dog" just how young is that exactly?

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:08 pm

Wildweeds wrote:He softens and flags because even though you think you are not being rough........................ you are,lay off of him and kill,IMO picking a dog up and setting him back is B.S. that serves no purpose,If you were to spill milk on the floor you can't get it back in the glass,the damage is done,if the dog breaks or takes a step,setting it back does nothing to change what has transpired.

Do you have a helper?

Not so, he has not been moved in months and only needed it 1 or 2x. I mostly train alone. Now that I think about it if you leave him on point he will start flagging even when I am not in the picture.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:13 pm

kninebirddog wrote:I will not set young dogs back..agree that though you think you are being gentle your body language is entirely different to a dog as to the dog you are coming towering over then bending over for the physical contact ...this is all domineering actions to a dogs perspective..do it to much some dogs really do not like the being picked up and will mentally start moving away to pressure and I have seen many dogs that when the owner comes close begin to go downward in anticipation of being picked up and moved back

I like the rick and Ronnie smith method of teaching a cue which means to stop and work on taking the chase out and bring the dog to a stop after the dog has made the commitment working the dog to steady to flush then working on the points

the tail flagging high and tighter in action this is the dog letting you know what the mind is thinking and that is to move closer to the bird/bird scent/ this could be to get a better lock on the bird but most times it is to crowd or to flat go get that bird to the dog.. if the tail and back end is loose while flagging this is a dog going through the motions but is not excited about what is going on

I have taken the chase out of him he will NOT take more than a couple steps at most on a flushed bird. The flagging is always high and tight. He loves his work you can see it all over him.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:24 pm

I believe the best and most low pressure way to achieve what you are after is with yardwork. There is pressure, but not around birds. It is obedience type pressure and most dogs can take a goodly amount of obedience pressure without any negative consequences on their birdwork.

I would utilize heel/whoa drills, or barrel, bench or placeboard work, or on the ground... as you prefer...to make the dog understand that stopping and standing is what is expected. Styling a dog up, silently, with gentle but firm hands can have a very calming and reassuring effect on a dog. I personally use a bench and heel/whoa drills for this, but any way you work it is fine as long as you are consistent in your methodology. Mixing up the techniques and routines and such can help to keep it fresh and interesting for the dog. Short play sessions in between Obedience drills also recharge the dog and keep its desire to please at a high level. Pushing a standing dog with a hand, flat against the dog's butt will encourage the dog to dig in and resist the forward pressure. This response will encourage a dog to stand there and grow roots.

Once the dog is stopping and standing in the yard...with style, you can begin to walk out front and simulate a flushing attempt. If the dog lets down, go back, style the dog up, reassure it with your hands, push forward a little ...whatever it takes to get the dog to "assume the position", and after a half minute or so, then go back out front again. Eventually, the dog will stand "at attention" for extended periods in the yard. Then you can start to add distractions like thowing a hat, a handful of leaves and ultimately ...a pigeon.

I believe that a healthy dose of patience, and a program of yardwork, in concert with field work as the dog progresses will get you to the place you want to be with your dog. It is not all that difficult to have a dog stand there like a Marine Major on a parade ground..al the way through flush, shot, the subsequent walk back to the dog and collaring. I can do it and so can you. Patience, persistence, gentle but firm and confident hands and you will get there.

Plan your work and then go out and work your plan. Have a clear idea of what you want to accomplish and a benchmark to indicate success or failure, for each training session.

RayG[/quote]


Great post BTW
It is funny you say this as last night I started just this on the table in the yard. He is 16 mos with loads of ability albeit immature. We ran in the NAVHDA UT test and all of his heeling work remaining was done off lead and he scored 4's as well as 4's in his duck search if he hadn't imploded in the field work he would have easily pulled off a prize 1. But being drawn last and finding a bird before the 2 minute mark was up and 7 other finds unglued him.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:27 am

I'd try putting him on launchers; when he flags or drop's intensity, pop a bird.

You can also have more than one launcher at a site, popping a second bird after a few second delay.

Shoot birds over him, it builds enthusiasm and interest.

Don't overdo the bird work; you'll bore him. Much of what you do on birds can be done in the yard. Bore him in the yard, excite him in the field.

Keep everything natural so he doesn't know it's training.
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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by DonF » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:02 am

I have a feeling it's not the bird that bother's him but rather the whoa. I believe you said he was good on birds but then started going south on you. You mentioned the only pressure this dog has seen has seen around birds is being picked up and put back. I don't set a dog back but that should not cause what your seeing. Think about it, you launch the bird and give the whoa command. When you launch the bird the dog knows the next thing, right away, is the whoa command. Several people have mentioned launchers and that is where I go to. Staay quiet, launch the bird if the dog moves at all and do not set the dog back. Eliminate the whoa command. How did you teach whoa anyway?
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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by ultracarry » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:27 am

DonF wrote:I have a feeling it's not the bird that bother's him but rather the whoa. I believe you said he was good on birds but then started going south on you. You mentioned the only pressure this dog has seen has seen around birds is being picked up and put back. I don't set a dog back but that should not cause what your seeing. Think about it, you launch the bird and give the whoa command. When you launch the bird the dog knows the next thing, right away, is the whoa command. Several people have mentioned launchers and that is where I go to. Staay quiet, launch the bird if the dog moves at all and do not set the dog back. Eliminate the whoa command. How did you teach whoa anyway?
I like the thought process and I'm guessing its how someone taught whoa. I have seen some people go up to a steady dog and continue saying whoa with thief every attempt to flush a bird. The dog ends up melting and almost hitting the ground. But u see where flagging is happening.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:44 pm

DonF wrote:I have a feeling it's not the bird that bother's him but rather the whoa. I believe you said he was good on birds but then started going south on you. You mentioned the only pressure this dog has seen has seen around birds is being picked up and put back. I don't set a dog back but that should not cause what your seeing. Think about it, you launch the bird and give the whoa command. When you launch the bird the dog knows the next thing, right away, is the whoa command. Several people have mentioned launchers and that is where I go to. Staay quiet, launch the bird if the dog moves at all and do not set the dog back. Eliminate the whoa command. How did you teach whoa anyway?
I taught WOAH in the yard on the table, then to the ground, then in a birdless field while moving, then I took the chase out with launched birds( stop too flush). I have used multiple launchers but it usually gets him antsy and his eyes glaze over like he is possessed. He doesn't always move but will start flagging if left pointing whether I come into the picture or not.
Last edited by pointshootretrieve on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:51 pm

I like the thought process and I'm guessing its how someone taught whoa. I have seen some people go up to a steady dog and continue saying whoa with thief every attempt to flush a bird. The dog ends up melting and almost hitting the ground. But u see where flagging is happening.[/quote]

One thing I DO NOT do is repeat a command unless I feel the dog did not hear it, say it once and mean it. I do not give a WOAH command until the dog has moved and the bird is flushed. It is almost like he is anticipating the flushed bird and this is causing the flagging.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:59 pm

I am all for killing birds for a dog. It helps to build desire and keep the enthusiasm level at a high pitch. However, I do not think killing birds is the answer to your particular issue.

Physically picking the dog up and moving it back is a valid strategy for a dog that is creeping, but it can be intimidating. You might have more success actually DRIVING the dog forward... through the bird until it flushes. An e-collar on the belly and a very low nick if the dog moves its feet or creeps can also work, if the dog has been trained with a collar. Having a pocketful of pebbles and throwing a handful of them out in front of the dog as it begins to soften and flag, can really heighten the dog's objectivity, but, like most "tricks" that only works a few times and is best reserved for its "surprise" effect, much like the "exploding quail" trick.

I believe the best and most low pressure way to achieve what you are after is with yardwork. There is pressure, but not around birds. It is obedience type pressure and most dogs can take a goodly amount of obedience pressure without any negative consequences on their birdwork.

I would utilize heel/whoa drills, or barrel, bench or placeboard work, or on the ground... as you prefer...to make the dog understand that stopping and standing is what is expected. Styling a dog up, silently, with gentle but firm hands can have a very calming and reassuring effect on a dog. I personally use a bench and heel/whoa drills for this, but any way you work it is fine as long as you are consistent in your methodology. Mixing up the techniques and routines and such can help to keep it fresh and interesting for the dog. Short play sessions in between Obedience drills also recharge the dog and keep its desire to please at a high level. Pushing a standing dog with a hand, flat against the dog's butt will encourage the dog to dig in and resist the forward pressure. This response will encourage a dog to stand there and grow roots.

Once the dog is stopping and standing in the yard...with style, you can begin to walk out front and simulate a flushing attempt. If the dog lets down, go back, style the dog up, reassure it with your hands, push forward a little ...whatever it takes to get the dog to "assume the position", and after a half minute or so, then go back out front again. Eventually, the dog will stand "at attention" for extended periods in the yard. Then you can start to add distractions like thowing a hat, a handful of leaves and ultimately ...a pigeon.

I believe that a healthy dose of patience, and a program of yardwork, in concert with field work as the dog progresses will get you to the place you want to be with your dog. It is not all that difficult to have a dog stand there like a Marine Major on a parade ground..al the way through flush, shot, the subsequent walk back to the dog and collaring. I can do it and so can you. Patience, persistence, gentle but firm and confident hands and you will get there.

Plan your work and then go out and work your plan. Have a clear idea of what you want to accomplish and a benchmark to indicate success or failure, for each training session.

RayG[/quote]


One of the best posts that I have seen in a long long time.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:00 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I'd try putting him on launchers; when he flags or drop's intensity, pop a bird.

You can also have more than one launcher at a site, popping a second bird after a few second delay.

Shoot birds over him, it builds enthusiasm and interest.

Don't overdo the bird work; you'll bore him. Much of what you do on birds can be done in the yard. Bore him in the yard, excite him in the field.

Keep everything natural so he doesn't know it's training.
There is certainly no shortage of enthusiasm with this dog and I usually only do birdwork 1-2 times a week and 2-3 other days we are training with retriever trialers. Not sure what you mean about keeping everything natural?

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:51 am

pointshootretrieve wrote:


There is certainly no shortage of enthusiasm with this dog and I usually only do birdwork 1-2 times a week and 2-3 other days we are training with retriever trialers. Not sure what you mean about keeping everything natural?
Put birds in places wild birds would be.
Use different fields constantly.
Don't let the dog "track" you to the birds.

Try to make it interesting for him. Don't always use a delayed flush; sometimes just walk up and flush the bird the way a wild one would, maybe when you're still 20' behind or to the side of the dog. Keep it natural so the dog always gets the unexpected.
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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:54 am

pointshootretrieve wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:I will not set young dogs back..agree that though you think you are being gentle your body language is entirely different to a dog as to the dog you are coming towering over then bending over for the physical contact ...this is all domineering actions to a dogs perspective..do it to much some dogs really do not like the being picked up and will mentally start moving away to pressure and I have seen many dogs that when the owner comes close begin to go downward in anticipation of being picked up and moved back

I like the rick and Ronnie smith method of teaching a cue which means to stop and work on taking the chase out and bring the dog to a stop after the dog has made the commitment working the dog to steady to flush then working on the points

the tail flagging high and tighter in action this is the dog letting you know what the mind is thinking and that is to move closer to the bird/bird scent/ this could be to get a better lock on the bird but most times it is to crowd or to flat go get that bird to the dog.. if the tail and back end is loose while flagging this is a dog going through the motions but is not excited about what is going on

I have taken the chase out of him he will NOT take more than a couple steps at most on a flushed bird. The flagging is always high and tight. He loves his work you can see it all over him.

that high and tight ticking tells me that though the dog physically knows that he is supposed to be still thus the feet mostly staying out the tail ticking and the cat steps are really letting you know that the mind is still in chase mode

hope that makes sense

Good Luck there are some very good posts here to try and help you get what you want out of your dog :wink:
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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:45 am

Not seeing this first hand but knowing some and seeing this dog as a pup:
I think it is just a maturity issue. I bet with the wild bird season coming things will straighten them selves out.
Your dog is young and you have asked a lot of this dog. You train a often. As you know I Love that little bugger and are amazed at where he is being such a fire ball and at a young age.

What we should do is swap dogs for a few months. Ruby needs what you are giving your pup and Yours needs just time to figure stuff out.

I think it is time to just go hunting and let him do a little more figuring things out.

IMHO.
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Rick

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:51 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:Not seeing this first hand but knowing some and seeing this dog as a pup:
I think it is just a maturity issue. I bet with the wild bird season coming things will straighten them selves out.
Your dog is young and you have asked a lot of this dog. You train a often. As you know I Love that little bugger and are amazed at where he is being such a fire ball and at a young age.

What we should do is swap dogs for a few months. Ruby needs what you are giving your pup and Yours needs just time to figure stuff out.

I think it is time to just go hunting and let him do a little more figuring things out.

IMHO.

:lol: I think I have been busted. He is Immature still but I will say I only take what a dog will give me if that makes sense. I am not into cramming training down there throats, I keep it fun and you will not see my dogs ever look sour. Rick I would gladly help you out with Ruby and pretty sure I offered the last time we spoke. Were off to camp in a few weeks if your interested.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by pointshootretrieve » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:56 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
pointshootretrieve wrote:


There is certainly no shortage of enthusiasm with this dog and I usually only do birdwork 1-2 times a week and 2-3 other days we are training with retriever trialers. Not sure what you mean about keeping everything natural?
Put birds in places wild birds would be.
Use different fields constantly.
Don't let the dog "track" you to the birds.

Try to make it interesting for him. Don't always use a delayed flush; sometimes just walk up and flush the bird the way a wild one would, maybe when you're still 20' behind or to the side of the dog. Keep it natural so the dog always gets the unexpected.

I gotcha sometimes the obvious escapes me. I do pay close attention to how I plant game and not let the dog track, but never put much thought into planting birds where wild birds would be.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by Fran Seagren » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:16 pm

Yes. Great posts. This topic with input from various experienced people is just what the doctor ordered! Thanks.

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Re: A little issue that needs cleaning up

Post by Ruffshooter » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:41 am

:lol: Rick I would gladly help you out with Ruby and pretty sure I offered the last time we spoke. Were off to camp in a few weeks if your interested.[/quote]

Thanks Lenny,You did and I do need extra hands with her. If I can get work under control amongst other things going on I will be taking you up on that.

Regarding the doing alot with the pup. Only meant that she is absorbing alot in a short time. Sometimes I think this builds on a pup and their mind is sorting out what has been taught and learned. I think any way.

Enjoy camp. He will come through for you.

Rick
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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