EXTREMELY gun shy! please help

jwnissen · Post by **jwnissen** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:37 pm

So I just got my 1 y/o GSP back from the trainer Friday. Shy was gun shy before I took her up there and now she is worse. Long story short, my wife and I had our engagement pictures taken and she suggested going out and shooting out guns all dressed up. We took Daisie and I didnt put her in the truck like I had planned before we shot our pistols. A huge mistake I wish I could take back!! I talked to the trainer and he tried everything he can to break her. Instead of keeping her another month, he recommended just taking her hunting for a season and see how she does. She is in heat, but was like this before. He also said she might still be a little immature/young yet. He said to take her out with the wild birds a few times to get her birdy again before I start shooting around her. I have had pheasant wing around her since she was 6 weeks old. Now she is timid of it but when I wave it around in front of her nose she starts getting excited, but not to the point of before. She would drop everything and only want the wings. Now she associates the birds with the gunshot. I went and watched her worked one day so I seen it first hand. She ran right past the planted birds, looked right at them then kept running. She circled once but would not stop and point until he coaxed her to. Once he shot the bird with a 20g, her tail went down and she wanted nothing else to do with the birds. He tried to get her to play with the bird, and she did a little, then went back to running with her nose to the ground running.

I know of people who just shoot around the dog until they get use to it, but that can go either way. The place I bought her shoots a starter pistol when he feeds them. This is a method I have thought about and am hoping that once the gunshyness is gone, the birdyness will come back. The other is getting her back in the field on wild birds then introduce the gun slowly. This requires 2 people and an area to do this which is not readily available to me.

I know everyone has different opinions so I welcome them all, and why you think that way. Any questions, please ask. Like I said before, I am strongly considering the food method since she loves nothing more than her food every night!! Thank you all very much for your help. I dont want a house dog, I have a lot vested in a bird dog and would like to be able to use her someday.

John

jwnissen · Post by **jwnissen** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:38 pm

And I have read the past posts concerning this and there is a lot of good info, but not really tailored to my problem.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:57 pm

Put the guns away and get her in the field and finding, chasing, or whatever she wants to do with birds. Maybe in a couple of months you will be able to start carrying a gun again but will likely be longer. Your trainer shooting over her, knowing she was shy just made the problem worse and it will be hard to overcome now since she associates the gun with birds. That is a serious problem and should have never happened.

Ezzy

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:07 pm

x2 on put the gun away. You might need to let her catch a few birds on the ground and maul them. Where are you guy's finding these trainers? This is the third trainer related problem I read today. You look for another trainer, try R.J.Marquart in Moses lake, Wash; Quicksilver kennels. Or Dan Hoke at Dunfur Kennels near Spokane.

pointer · Post by **pointer** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:38 am

x3. The others are right. This is a very difficult problem that should have never happened. Forget the food thing. You would only spend months either making the dog worse perhaps not gunshy around food. It does nothing for your problem which is not just gunshyness but now blinking birds due to the association with the gun.

As mentioned get the pup crazy on real birds which may not be very easy. Put the wings away, because they are useless at this point. Let the dog chase, catch, or do whatever it want to do around birds. Once the dog is crazy for birds again, slowly introduce the gun with a blank gun at a distance. One shot, far away, and watch the dogs reaction. As long as the dog continues to have fun and doesn't shut down, you are on the right track. Be patient and go slow. A shot or two with no negative reactions is a great day. Don't rush the amount of shooting you do each day and always error on the side of one less is better than one to many. You want to continue with this getting closer and seeing no negative reaction from the dog. Once the dog is past the gun and having fun on birds, it is then time to put the rest of it back together.

I tell most people when they have a dog with these problems, it is easier and cheaper to start over with a different pup and do it right the first time. This would be a tough fix for a real pro and it won't be cheap. It is a long and tough process.

Good luck with your dog.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:00 am

ezzy333 wrote:Put the guns away and get her in the field and finding, chasing, or whatever she wants to do with birds. Maybe in a couple of months you will be able to start carrying a gun again but will likely be longer. Your trainer shooting over her, knowing she was shy just made the problem worse and it will be hard to overcome now since she associates the gun with birds. That is a serious problem and should have never happened.

Ezzy

+1

DonF wrote:x2 on put the gun away. You might need to let her catch a few birds on the ground and maul them. Where are you guy's finding these trainers? This is the third trainer related problem I read today. You look for another trainer, try R.J.Marquart in Moses lake, Wash; Quicksilver kennels. Or Dan Hoke at Dunfur Kennels near Spokane.

+1

Ya - it seems like an epidemic of so-called "trainers" being impatient and hard-headed in gun intro. If they can't read the dog's reaction to gunfire any better than that, you have to wonder how they can be effective with training other concepts.

John, I can't recommend this from personal experience, but I have read about a couple guys using it successfully: http://www.gundogsupply.com/gunshycure.html I think I would combine this with the methods that Ezzy and Don described if I were using it in your situation.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:23 am

You will save yourself a ton of time, effort, energy, and stress, and save the dog a lot of stress, it you find her a new home as a pet. You can start over with another pup, and be a little wiser this time.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:05 am

x4 on the trainer. Sure hope you didn't spend a fortune on him because he just made you problem a lot worse. Follow what people have said above, minus this:

rinker wrote:You will save yourself a ton of time, effort, energy, and stress, and save the dog a lot of stress, it you find her a new home as a pet. You can start over with another pup, and be a little wiser this time.

Personally, I think it's much too early to even consider re-homing this dog. Give the pup a chance to get into birds without any pressure or guns and she may be able to recover. Good luck

luvmydogs · Post by **luvmydogs** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:26 am

Hi. I am new to this site but can give my personal experience. We have one dog that is extremely gun shy. If you even go into the room where we keep our guns, she runs and hides in the bedroom. That is until she realizes bird hunting is involved, then she doesn't even realize there is a gun being carried. It is actually the sound of the bell on the collar that can pull her right out of the bedroom at a run. When she is excited and focused on a bird she doesn't even acknowledge the gun shot except to follow the birds flight. For her it was seeing the other dogs excitement of getting to head to the fields that got her excited and helped her overcome the fear. Do you have the opportunity to let your dog run with other hunting dogs? I agree with keeping the guns away until she gets excited about birds again. But maybe letting her go out with other dogs and planting a few birds just for the sake of the scent and the excitement factor may help. Good luck. I know it is frustrating.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:43 am

agree with PUT THE GUN AWAY

this dog needs to be made happy about birds and the field

then getting around situations where the dog can be staked out with other dogs that are excited about the field and building confidence with shots way off in the distance and to be allowed to feed off the excitement off the other dogs ...and most important NO WORDS of encouragement while the dog is in a scared or concerned state of mind as you will only be rewarding that scared and or concerned state of mind

as long as the dog is showing more confidence SLOWLY work that process let those little steps become habit not just a lucky day or session...session after session if you are in a hurry because of bird season ..i would suggest using another dog..do not mean to sound harsh but this dog needs to be built up on its time not on yours and if it takes a month 2 months or a year that is your dogs level of build up and to rush things is the first step to failure

good luck

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:05 pm

Having a dog get bird crazy may work, but may also give you more problems later, like when it’s time to break the dog. What you need to do (and this works for a multitude of problems), find yourself a pro or a buddy that is bird working a bunch of dogs. Stake the dog out in the middle of the other dogs that are going to be worked and also that he can see what’s going on. What usually happens is the other dogs are jumping and barking and creating also sorts of ruckus, but your dog will most likely try to get as far away from the training as he can. Don’t do anything with the dog, simply put him away. At one point, and your dog is going to realize that he also wants to get into what the trainer and the other dogs are getting into.
When your dog also begins to carry on like the others, YOU GOT HIM, do that a few more times and he should be well on his way. Do some bird work and start with a blank gun, the key is not to be frustrated, take your time, and don’t rush it.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:23 pm

jwnissen wrote: I know of people who just shoot around the dog until they get use to it, but that can go either way.

Please forget you ever heard this.

Unfortunately gunshy once severe cannot not always be overcome. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is not a case where blowing sunshine is very effective. I do agree though put the gun away see if you can get the dog bird crazy then start back with a PROVEN technique to reintroduce the gun.

I truly wish your dog the best of luck.

jwnissen · Post by **jwnissen** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:10 pm

I appreciate all of the resposes. As far as the trainer, I dont want to say a name but it is one of the above mentioned trainers which was HIGHLY recommended in this area, i did my homework and his other dogs he is training are doing really well. Maybe she is "soft" and needs a softer trainer but I dont know. I also know it would be much easier to get rid of her, but she is part of my family and I wont give up on her. I know she has it in her, things just happened poorly. I will try to get her around other hunting dogs, maybe that will get her excited again. Thanks again and keep them responses coming, I love learning new techniques to try. Sounds like I need to be really patient, not my strong suit.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:48 pm

Your only chance is to get her totally bird crazy.

If you have any knowledgeable dog people in the area that can watch the dog around birds, might be a help for you to know when and how to re-introduce the gun.

Good luck,

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:11 pm

Well, i am sorry that things have gone as they have for you. If it was my dog and i was not going to get rid of it i would definitely git rid of the guns,starter pistols,loud noises etc for awhile...
Give her a bit of a break for a few weeks, let her chill, take her for walks etc. Work on other aspects of training like heel,whoa etc....Then get her back into birds, try not to set it up like a obvious training situation if possible. Go hunting without other people and without the gun....let her naturally find the birds by suprise, let the instincts come into play. If she ignores or blinks the birds then just move on...don't react, don't encourage,don't scold....just let her figure it out on her own, dogs take cues from our body language and reactions, act nonchalent so to speak, its just another day out in the sticks, birds are part of it and i am not making a big deal and putting pressure on you for finding one....Without any kind of pressure is probably her best chance of regaining confidence in her interest in birds....Once and if the desire on birds comes back around then you can start working in a blank pistol from LONG distance and ease into it slowly....I wouldn't worry about shooting birds this year at all if it was me....

I had a buddy who had a gun shy brittany and this is how we played it out....she came around but it took about 1yr before he could gun a bird over her.......So its possible, but its alot of work, alot of patience and success is not 100%.....

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:24 pm

I know of people who just shoot around the dog until they get use to it, but that can go either way.

For a dog that already has a problem, that could only go one way!!

Charlie

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:30 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Having a dog get bird crazy may work, but may also give you more problems later, like when it’s time to break the dog. What you need to do (and this works for a multitude of problems), find yourself a pro or a buddy that is bird working a bunch of dogs. Stake the dog out in the middle of the other dogs that are going to be worked and also that he can see what’s going on. What usually happens is the other dogs are jumping and barking and creating also sorts of ruckus, but your dog will most likely try to get as far away from the training as he can. Don’t do anything with the dog, simply put him away. At one point, and your dog is going to realize that he also wants to get into what the trainer and the other dogs are getting into.
When your dog also begins to carry on like the others, YOU GOT HIM, do that a few more times and he should be well on his way. Do some bird work and start with a blank gun, the key is not to be frustrated, take your time, and don’t rush it.

I've never tried that but part of the problem is the dog is also now blinking birds. So if the chain gang and being on it while other dogs are working helps, how do you get the dog interested in birds again.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:54 pm

John

I saw this post and called R.J.,gunshy/soft dogs is his secret specialty,he said to give him a call he would like to converse with you on the subject and evaluate just exactly how bad it is.I've seen him work magic from start to finish on a yellow lab that was so afraid of anything that looked like a gun it isn't even funny,I watched the progress from start to finish in 2 week intervals,the end result was amazing.He gets about 6-10 gunshyers in a summer.
WW

jwnissen wrote:I appreciate all of the resposes. As far as the trainer, I dont want to say a name but it is one of the above mentioned trainers which was HIGHLY recommended in this area.

jwnissen · Post by **jwnissen** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:26 pm

Please dont take this as a stab at my trainer. He is amazing and I seen him work and spent about 10 hours one day working dogs with him. He is awsome at what he does, I just think she was far worse off than he originally thought. Things happen and there has to be "one" of those dogs in every bunch. I just dont think 2 months was enough time and she isnt quite mature enough yet, to get her to where she needs to be. Maybe being bottle fed since she was 8 days old might have something to do with her being soft. But, on the bright side, I have the BEST bug/moth catcher money can buy!!!

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:33 pm

The place I bought her shoots a starter pistol when he feeds them. This is a method I have thought about and am hoping that once the gun shyness is gone,

=

999 out of 1000 dogs are not born gun shy. It is purely Man Made. (There is that 1 in a thousand that does have this problem.)

Do we as breeders and friends of people getting new pups, need to send home a book that probably helped us in our beginnings and stop this senseless problem with good hunting dogs.

I just had a call from a puppy buyer from me and he was saying how bird crazy his pup, now 1 yr old is, pointing wild, and trash birds out in the fields and back yard, and he is so excited about the up coming DOVE season to introduce her to GUN FIRE.

I do have a passion about this.

He had been shooting blank around the feeding pup. That is the most Not Very Smart thing I have ever heard of. All they are doing is making them afraid to eat. Who ever does this does not know the mental process of the young dogs, and they need to relearn what they (owners and trainers) are doing.

Chasing birds. Birds, Birds. BIRDS are used in a careful way to introduce gunfire. Gun fire = Birds = Gunfire. Excitement = gun fire = Birds. When a dog hears a gun, He should be looking for a bird. When he points a bird, he is hoping his owner will shoot the bird for him. It is all a reward for the dog.

This guy was going to take this 1 yr old dog dove hunting and get her excited with all the shooting.

I told him in a stern, but polite tone, that was the last thing he should do with that dog, since the dog had not been introduced to gunfire in a correct method. She was out of National Ch. bloodline and other offspring were showing exceptional qualities around birds and gun fire. But no matter how good the bloodline is, shooting around a young dog for no good reason will destroy them as a hunting dog and make them gun shy.

I told him to take his lab and leave pup at home till he had a few shot birds, then he could take pup out and let chase wild, or trash birds, then fire blank and let pup see him throw dead bird for a reward of finding bird, retrieving bird (The Prize) in mouth. There are many other ways of the introduction of gunfire and birds. Many of the popular DVD's show you how. Perfect Start is just one of many.

After hearing about another & another Gun Shy dog. Should we require the new owners to choose from a list of OUR top 3 favorite books or DVD's in order for them to buy one of your pups. Something so simple and easy to do right. There is no reason for the owner to do it wrong.

I'm going to with next litter, start giving new owners, some pre education on how the pups can learn and how the owners can find very helpful material on helping their little partner along in their quest to become a hunting dog.

It is good to see the newbies ask a lot of questions on this forum. There is a lot of good info to be found here.

Keep asking those question to your unknow training ideas. Better yet, get one of the favorite books and dvd's out there and find what works for you.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:48 pm

I share your passion about people ruining good potential,I instructed a fellow I sold a pup to last fall to NOT TAKE THE DOG TO THE SKEET/SPORTING CLAYS RANGE.He did it anyway and the dog is not gunshy but don't ask me why not,my puppy raising program included rocks inside a milk jug that they wrassled with,packed around,we through it around the pup barn,they retrieved it,stole it loved it,it made a heck of a racket,We clapped hands,ran em,sang to em,hollered at em and pretty much made em bulletproof,all that being said when it came time for gun intro I believe exactly as you do strong flying birds with one clipped wing,work em up into lather,wind em up,let em go and when in full on full blown pursuit.................. bang from 50 yards away with a .410.This method has never let me down.
The thing that ticked me off about the fellow I instructed on what NOT to do is that I offered for FREE to help acclimate the dog to the gun/birds.But the tell tale thing was said by his wife " My husband is the best trainer we know"

hi-tailyn wrote:
The place I bought her shoots a starter pistol when he feeds them. This is a method I have thought about and am hoping that once the gun shyness is gone,
=

999 out of 1000 dogs are not born gun shy. It is purely Man Made. (There is that 1 in a thousand that does have this problem.)

Do we as breeders and friends of people getting new pups, need to send home a book that probably helped us in our beginnings and stop this senseless problem with good hunting dogs.

I just had a call from a puppy buyer from me and he was saying how bird crazy his pup, now 1 yr old is, pointing wild, and trash birds out in the fields and back yard, and he is so excited about the up coming DOVE season to introduce her to GUN FIRE.

I do have a passion about this.

He had been shooting blank around the feeding pup. That is the most Not Very Smart thing I have ever heard of. All they are doing is making them afraid to eat. Who ever does this does not know the mental process of the young dogs, and they need to relearn what they (owners and trainers) are doing.

Chasing birds. Birds, Birds. BIRDS are used in a careful way to introduce gunfire. Gun fire = Birds = Gunfire. Excitement = gun fire = Birds. When a dog hears a gun, He should be looking for a bird. When he points a bird, he is hoping his owner will shoot the bird for him. It is all a reward for the dog.

This guy was going to take this 1 yr old dog dove hunting and get her excited with all the shooting.

I told him in a stern, but polite tone, that was the last thing he should do with that dog, since the dog had not been introduced to gunfire in a correct method. She was out of National Ch. bloodline and other offspring were showing exceptional qualities around birds and gun fire. But no matter how good the bloodline is, shooting around a young dog for no good reason will destroy them as a hunting dog and make them gun shy.

I told him to take his lab and leave pup at home till he had a few shot birds, then he could take pup out and let chase wild, or trash birds, then fire blank and let pup see him throw dead bird for a reward of finding bird, retrieving bird (The Prize) in mouth. There are many other ways of the introduction of gunfire and birds. Many of the popular DVD's show you how. Perfect Start is just one of many.

After hearing about another & another Gun Shy dog. Should we require the new owners to choose from a list of OUR top 3 favorite books or DVD's in order for them to buy one of your pups. Something so simple and easy to do right. There is no reason for the owner to do it wrong.

I'm going to with next litter, start giving new owners, some pre education on how the pups can learn and how the owners can find very helpful material on helping their little partner along in their quest to become a hunting dog.

It is good to see the newbies ask a lot of questions on this forum. There is a lot of good info to be found here.

Keep asking those question to your unknow training ideas. Better yet, get one of the favorite books and dvd's out there and find what works for you.

Sophie · Post by **Sophie** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:17 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Put the guns away and get her in the field and finding, chasing, or whatever she wants to do with birds. Maybe in a couple of months you will be able to start carrying a gun again but will likely be longer. Your trainer shooting over her, knowing she was shy just made the problem worse and it will be hard to overcome now since she associates the gun with birds. That is a serious problem and should have never happened.

Ezzy
+1

DonF wrote:x2 on put the gun away. You might need to let her catch a few birds on the ground and maul them. Where are you guy's finding these trainers? This is the third trainer related problem I read today. You look for another trainer, try R.J.Marquart in Moses lake, Wash; Quicksilver kennels. Or Dan Hoke at Dunfur Kennels near Spokane.
+1

Ya - it seems like an epidemic of so-called "trainers" being impatient and hard-headed in gun intro. If they can't read the dog's reaction to gunfire any better than that, you have to wonder how they can be effective with training other concepts.

John, I can't recommend this from personal experience, but I have read about a couple guys using it successfully: http://www.gundogsupply.com/gunshycure.html I think I would combine this with the methods that Ezzy and Don described if I were using it in your situation.

I have a gunshy dog and tried the gunshy cure cd. She ended up worse than when I started. I feel your pain. Good luck.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:07 am

Hmmm, how many of you have actually cured a gun shy dog? Imperfect information in these responses:
1. Gunshy is 100% man-made. Actually no. It's a learned response but can be learned from other dogs, especially momma, as well.
2. Put away the guns. No, no, NO,NNNOOOO. Stop shooting the guns for now but always, and I do mean always, have a shotgun in your hand or nearby when you interact with a gunshy dog. ALWAYS!!!! He needs to see it as commonplace, not something that comes out every once in a while to scare the s--t out of him.
3. Take him for long walks. Nuh-uh. Coop him up. The smaller the space the better. Give him just enough exercise to keep his bowels moving. He gets nearly nothing until he gets over his phobia. When you turn him out, keep him on a checkcord to get him right back in if he doesn't recall immediately. Why? Have you ever seen kids leaving school on the first day of summer vacation? The building could blow up behind them and they would not know it. When you're ready to shoot, you want him freakin' out just to be outside. DON'T INTERACT WITH YOUR DOG EXCEPT AT MEAL-TIMES, POTTY-TIMES, AND TRAINING SESSIONS! You've already bonded, make him hungry for you and for the freedom of the great outdoors. When he is running around the yard like a chicken with his head cut off, you are ready to start.

The advice: First, re-intro the birds. This part I will share. You are going to feel strange the first time or two but usually this will work. Take a clipped wing pigeon (live of course) and throw it away from the dog. Run as fast as you can to the bird whooping and hollering. Scoop the bird up and throw it underhanded again in one motion. It doesn't need to go far and needs to be done quickly. You also need to be making happy sounds the whole time (you might not want the neighbors to see you, but, oh well). When it comes to sound, think about puppies playing and mimic that, high pitched growls and all. Keep tossing it different directions and moving as fast as you can but watch the dog. When he starts to show interest in your antics, toss the bird in his general direction but not directly at him. Do your best to beat him to the bird if he starts for it. Stay with the short scoop-throws. Make getting to that bird a competition, a race. I hope you are in shape. He doesn't get it until he runs his tail off to get it. The first time he picks up the bird, love him up like the first girl who gave it up for you. Don't get in a hurry to take it from him even if he chews it to pieces. Hard-mouth is something that can be dealt with later if necessary. KEEP IT SHORT AND END HAPPY NO MATTER WHAT! Put away any negative emotions because your dog may pick up on them. It is a marathon not a sprint, don't get discouraged if it doesn't work the first day. Stay with it and eventually you should be able to toss the bird and he will happily chase it down.

Now,for the gunshy. Your dog associates gunfire with bad things. Your job is to teach him that gunfire is a good thing. Be creative and think it through. I will not tell you my process because it took me 15 years and nearly as many test dogs to develop and I make my hunting money from it. But, I will say that short sessions, by short I mean 30 seconds, done several times a day, EACH AND EVERY DAY until the problem is solved, can yield rather spectacular results in a short period of time. The first dog I cured through trial and error took 3 1/2 months. My last client dog took 3 weeks. My email is whoadog@hotmail.com. If the re-intro to birds works but you have trouble with the gunshy, shoot me an email and we may talk more.

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:49 pm

rinker wrote:You will save yourself a ton of time, effort, energy, and stress, and save the dog a lot of stress, it you find her a new home as a pet. You can start over with another pup, and be a little wiser this time.

+1

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