Professional Trainer?????

jimssetters · Post by **jimssetters** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:40 pm

Heres the story. Last october I sold a litter of beautiful English Setter pups with loads of natural talent. All pups sight pointing before they left at different ages. Most with very high tales and heads up. My personal pick of the litter was pointing, retreiving , and holding his birds at 4 months. The gentleman that bought him started him and hunted a little last year. This spring he took him to a professional (which is not a Setter Trainer) GSP. The dog will no longer point, if he smells a bird he will stop but there is no point. When the gun is raised he cowers in the grass. He will still retreive but it takes awhile since he was hideing and didnt see the bird drop. To say the least my buyer is very upset. The dog is not acting like the same dog that left. The trainer says he is not responsable. I have talked to other trainers that say if this happened to them they would replace the dog or refund the money. Is this standard? He is now trying to contact a lawyer. What if any other options does buyer have? He and his wife are very good people and I was excited this pup was going to such a good family. He doesnt want to lose this dog as he is now part of the family.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:08 pm

If the dog was doing okay last Fall on birds, It sounds to me like it is too hard a trainer for a soft dog. This is just my opinion

A lot of soft dogs need soft trainers or they will shut down. You might have to shot a lot of fun birds over the dog where there isn't much presure on him so it gets to be fun again. Once it's fun again then you can do some light presure training. Hope the dog comes out of it.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:22 pm

It is not possible to clearly blame the trainer; I would forget that and make a plan for the dog to recover. i foolishly bought a 2 year old whom I later found out had been abused with the e collar. Took one year for her to regain her confidence ; she is now a fine hunter.
I've learned too late that I should always pick a trainer that has a good reputation with the dog people. Picking a trainer because they happen to be near, or picking from the American Field mag turned out to be a a big mistake. "Too soon old; too soon smart."

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:03 pm

Anyone can say they are a dog trainer... It happens. I saw a dog run into the car door multiple times trying to get away from a "trainer" once...

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:26 pm

For whatever it is worth...................... IMO the dog was probably a little not enough with it between the ears to head off for serious pro training.The trainer was very likely not swift enough to see little cracks and send the dog home,but rather forged ahead instead of modifying the training program to fit the individual.Force a dog to grow up before it's ready and the result is what your client got,I'd have just hunted the dog one more season and then enlisted the help of the pro trainer.

If your client can handle the dog being gone for a rebuilding process I can reccomend an excellent option,he's done it many times and produced winners and CH's with other trainers " Washouts" and "Throwaways".

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:44 pm

You say he is hiring a lawyer. Who does he want to sue, you or the trainer?

Hunting dogs are a gamble. The odds can be improved with good genetics and good training, but some still do not make it.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:45 pm

Getting lawyers involved over training dogs...its buyer beware in my opinion.

jimssetters · Post by **jimssetters** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:57 pm

The buyer is wanting to be reimbursed for his $1400 he paid the trainer. As for buyer beware I totally disagree. A(PRO TRAINER) should be able to see things the average joe cant. He brought the dog out for more bird exposure not more pressure. I put him in contact with a different trainer. One I trust.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:24 pm

jimssetters wrote:The buyer is wanting to be reimbursed for his $1400 he paid the trainer. As for buyer beware I totally disagree. A(PRO TRAINER) should be able to see things the average joe cant. He brought the dog out for more bird exposure not more pressure. I put him in contact with a different trainer. One I trust.

The requirements to becoming a doctor: "The requirements for becoming a doctor in the U.S. may vary by specialty. In general, doctors complete a 4-year undergraduate degree program, spend four years in medical school and then complete 3-7 years of residency training, before they are eligible for medical licensing."

The requirements to becoming a lawyer: " Aspiring lawyers must complete law school. Applying to law school requires graduating from a bachelor's degree program and, in nearly all cases, taking the Law School Admission Test (LSAT)"

The requirements to becoming a Professional dog trianer: Call yourself a Pro.

Indeed buyer beware.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:33 pm

My thought is this.... I spent a year looking for the right pup, I spent 10mos looking for the right pro, I talked to alot of people, and spent alot of time on the phone with a few pros. I knew what I was getting when I shipped my dog off. sounds like your puppy buyer jumped the gun and got a $1400 dollar education.

Jim

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:40 pm

brad27 wrote:
jimssetters wrote:The buyer is wanting to be reimbursed for his $1400 he paid the trainer. As for buyer beware I totally disagree. A(PRO TRAINER) should be able to see things the average joe cant. He brought the dog out for more bird exposure not more pressure. I put him in contact with a different trainer. One I trust.
The requirements to becoming a doctor: "The requirements for becoming a doctor in the U.S. may vary by specialty. In general, doctors complete a 4-year undergraduate degree program, spend four years in medical school and then complete 3-7 years of residency training, before they are eligible for medical licensing."

The requirements to becoming a lawyer: " Aspiring lawyers must complete law school. Applying to law school requires graduating from a bachelor's degree program and, in nearly all cases, taking the Law School Admission Test (LSAT)"

The requirements to becoming a Professional dog trianer: Call yourself a Pro.

Indeed buyer beware.

Brad I disagree! The requirements for becoming a professional dog trainer : add stickers to your truck!

pointer · Post by **pointer** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:06 am

I would agree with most of the others. It sounds to me that the pup has been pressured to stand its birds and exposed to shooting while doing so. I assume the pup was green broke to the flush and chasing at the flush since it was hunted at a young age and was standing its birds to flush for you. I would start back at square one and get the dog having fun on birds again. This may take some time to regain the trust of the pup and to build its confidence again. I would leave the gun out of it until the pup was back to being bold and confident around birds. I expect the new trainer may have his hands full undoing what has been already done.

Good luck with the pup and hope things can be turned around.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:30 am

I had two puppies here in early 2011. They were the same age and very similarly bred. One pup was clearly better than the other one in every way. At about ten months of age the pup that I thought was better started going backwards and the other pup really started coming on. At about 14 months of age the pup that was way ahead early on went to a new home to be a pet only, the other pup is still here and doing tremendously. These two pups went through exactly the same training, ate the same feed, etc... If you had seen these two pups at nine months or so and been asked which one was going to be really good and which one wasn't going to make it, I think you would have guessed wrong, I know that I did. The moral of this story is that you never know how they are going to turn out. The trainer may very well have done a poor job, but I don't think there is any conclusive way to prove that.

I would recommend to someone that is afraid that this will happen to them, to take the initial purchase price of a puppy, + a years worth of feed/vet expense, + $1,400 that would be spent on a trainer, + the money that he is going to spend on a lawyer, and buy a finished dog.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:56 am

rinker wrote:I had two puppies here in early 2011. They were the same age and very similarly bred. One pup was clearly better than the other one in every way. At about ten months of age the pup that I thought was better started going backwards and the other pup really started coming on. At about 14 months of age the pup that was way ahead early on went to a new home to be a pet only, the other pup is still here and doing tremendously. These two pups went through exactly the same training, ate the same feed, etc... If you had seen these two pups at nine months or so and been asked which one was going to be really good and which one wasn't going to make it, I think you would have guessed wrong, I know that I did. The moral of this story is that you never know how they are going to turn out. The trainer may very well have done a poor job, but I don't think there is any conclusive way to prove that.

I would recommend to someone that is afraid that this will happen to them, to take the initial purchase price of a puppy, + a years worth of feed/vet expense, + $1,400 that would be spent on a trainer, + the money that he is going to spend on a lawyer, and buy a finished dog.

I wouldn't do that. But I'd sure do a better job of finding a trainer. There are other site's like this one that have a bunch of people that could send you in the right direction. This bad trainer business around here is getting pretty heavy. What, this is three in about the same number of days?

For the money you have into a pup and getting it to training age, you could ship a pup a long way to send it to a good trainer. I only ever recommend three, they are the only three I've know personally. Mike McGinnis, R.J. Marquart and Dan Hoke, any order will work. Draw back is Mike doesn't train any more or so I've heard. These guy's get everything out of a dog and take nothing away from the dog. Oh, I do know other's with National name's but would not recommend them.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:30 am

In every profession there are people that are great at their job, and some that do a very poor job, and most people are average. Certainly there are some trainers out there that do not do a good job consistenlty. These are the ones that you hear stories about. I think it would be very entertaining to hear a group of trainers discuss some of the owners they have worked for.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:17 am

Wow, all these trainer issues lately is a bit discouraging. Personally, while I think Rinker is right that there is no way to tell how a young dog is going to turn out, I feel like if the pup is bird crazy and doing well right before if heads to the trainer and comes back with loose screws, odds are the trainer did something that messed the dog up. I think the solution here is to fire the trainer and take the pup out on wild birds this fall...shut your mouth and leave the gun home until the pup is acting normal again....maybe wild birds will be enough to cure this.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:56 am

That's the advice he needs. Well said.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:37 pm

Good advice DOGNEWBIE

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:43 am

did the client ever go see his dog at the trainer? did he make calls? Did he request video of the dog?

I can tell you that from almost day one I was in contact with my pro, I also went out to see my dog work and I have several videos from my pro showing me what my dog would do.

Sounds to me like the client dropped the dog off and never looked back till it was either time to pick the pup up, or when he realized there was a problem.

Jim

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:26 am

Ya know Jimbo, when I was training i did video's of the dog every week and sent them out. Then I spent a weekend if I could with the owner teaching him, the's dogs are much easier. And still I had people that no matter what you did with them, they'd screw up the dog. I had one guy, and a really nice guy that loved the dog. He bought a completely finished dog from me. About a month later he was back with a complaint that first the dog wouldn't come when he called he and now she's starting to leave birds. He was upset when she wouldn't come and turned out she was on a birds. he'd go drag her off and then she started leaving birds on him. He lived where there were a lot of birds around. There are always two sides to a story.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:34 pm

Don,

I understand what you are saying, however there are several different threads going about gun shy dogs coming back from 'trainers'. Owners need to take responsibility for selecting the right trainer, performing some quality control checks along the way and having the wherewithal to recognize red flags in the process. The quality of the finished product is as much of a responsibility of the owner as it is the trainer.

I have had dogs with two different trainers and to say I did my research and fully vetted them would be an understatement. I don't think either of them were the closest, most convenient, cheapest or within any radius of my house. In fact I'll be making the 26 hour rt to pick up dogs next weekend.

To emphasize your point though, I know someone that bought a finished MH titled dog and called the seller a few weeks later only to tell them the dog didn't point (dog was taking advantage of new owner).

jimssetters · Post by **jimssetters** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Sounds to me like the client dropped the dog off and never looked back till it was either time to pick the pup up, or when he realized there was a problem.

The dog owner did check in with the trainer and the trainer didnt charge for the last month. He was not happy with results early on the trainer kept him for further training. I am not sure why people want to blame the owner. If you go to a surgeon to remove a kidney, is it the patience fault the Dr removed his left testicle?

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:14 pm

jimssetters wrote:Sounds to me like the client dropped the dog off and never looked back till it was either time to pick the pup up, or when he realized there was a problem.

The dog owner did check in with the trainer and the trainer didnt charge for the last month. He was not happy with results early on the trainer kept him for further training. I am not sure why people want to blame the owner. If you go to a surgeon to remove a kidney, is it the patience fault the Dr removed his left testicle?

I don't think this is as clear cut as a kidney & a testicle. No doubt, if the trainer pushed the youngster too hard, he should have read that...and backed off. You'll never be able to prove that, just as we have no idea what kind of dog was dropped off, it's prior history with it's owner, if the trainer truly did anything grossly negligent, or if the youngster just wasn't ready for the pressure of training, or if the youngster is truly irreparable. And verifying that the trainer didn't charge for the last month, doesn't really paint him out to be a bad guy. You could claim he was trying to fix something he screwed up, but I don't think those types of people usually try to fix anything, but rather take the money and run and don't answer the phone. Edit: Not saying that's always the case, but it just doesn't prove anything for me.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

jimssetters wrote:The dog owner did check in with the trainer and the trainer didnt charge for the last month. He was not happy with results early on the trainer kept him for further training. I am not sure why people want to blame the owner. If you go to a surgeon to remove a kidney, is it the patience fault the Dr removed his left testicle?

If the owner is so convinced the trainer ruined his dog, why would he leave him there for an extra month fee or no fee? And then get a lawyer involved to get his Money back?

Don I agree with what you are saying. My point is if this dog took such a turn for the worst why wasn't the owner aware and if he was aware why on earth did he leave the dog there till it went so far he is thinking of getting a lawyer?

Jim

jimssetters · Post by **jimssetters** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:56 pm

The pup is doing better at home. He is pointing dead, with a high tail. I think he is out from under the big cloud that shadowed him and he is now relaxing and happy in his home environment. I think that is great and the pups odds of recovery are very good. As far as the trainer IMO I think a professional in any field should conduct themselves as such. I would like to someday be a pro trainer and if you expect the very best out of yourself the customer will too. We should always hold our self to the highest standard possible. Thank you all for the comments and opinions.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:15 pm

If you are expecting us to make a judgement on the owner or trainer from what has been posted count me out. I don't think anyone can make that judgement on a single hear-say occurrence and then start judging right or wrong has discredited themselves in my opinion. In this case something probably happened that shouldn't have but we sure can't tell for sure and we sure can't place blame on anyone when you don't know what happened or why.

Ezzy

cstokes/southeast,ks · Post by **cstokes/southeast,ks** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:21 pm

Possibly hunting the dog with an older broke dog would help build the pups confidence after several repitions/outings. While not speaking or touching. Let the older dog do the teaching.

Also, not saying this applies to this situation! But some people want 6 months of training crammed into 1 month before hunting season. Regardless of the trainers opinion. (Not implying thats what happened here, just speaking in general terms).

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:27 am

As a trainer, I have followed is post with interest, but have refrained from comment until this time. A lot of good points have been made, and as DonF said, "there are two sides to every story". It appears that this problem was allowed to fester over time, and misunderstandings on both sides of the fence were allowed to develop and go unresolved.

Regardless of the type of business, most problems occur due to lack of communication. This is especially true in the bird dog world, and terms such as steady, broke, finished, started, introduced are tossed around but are not clearly and universally defined. A good trainer should be specific and certain that his clients understands what he means when using these terms and what his training program entails.

Everybody that gets a pup has high expectations. Obviously some dogs will be better than others, and the trainer should be able to evaluate, determine and establish realistic expectations for his client's dog. He should be able to quickly determine, whether the dog is hard or soft, and be able to define his training approach and method for that dog. He may be able to do this right away, or it may take a little time to establish an accurate evaluation, and it is the trainers responsibility to clearly communicate these strengths, short comings, and obstacles that may facilitate or hinder the dogs development early in the process. A comfortable level of communication needs to be established, and if not possible, both parties need to move on.

Developing a bird dog is a process that takes place over time, and doing the right thing at the right time facilitates this process. When choosing a trainer, start seeking early and do your homework, verify references and check credentials. Visit the kennel and watch him work other dogs. His best credentials are dogs that are or have been in his program. A good trainer should be a good mentor, being there for you before, during, and long after your has been in his care. Most of all use common sense and trust your gut feelings- every trainer isn't suited for every owner.

If clear communications had been established and maintained, this situation that started this thread could have been avoided. Most of all remember, the development of your gun dog should bring joy, not misery.
Hunter Payne

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:54 am

Just from what I have gleaned from the OP, I don't see how its plausible that the Breeder is liable for anything.

JMO

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:40 pm

From my take on this ,I think he wants the trainer to take responsibility. (by giving him his money for training back).

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