Runs to big

jeff gruennert · Post by **jeff gruennert** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:37 am

Hello all, I have a five year old ep that is really coming into his own as a ruffed grouse and woodcock dog this past weekend he 8 solid points 5 grouse 3 woodcock . This is all good but he spends to much time out of bell and beeper range. is there any way to shorten him up with out affecting his drive. I would like it if i could keep him under 200 yds

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:34 am

Two things, get a GPS or just keep calling him in. Usually running that big isn't a problem if they learn to check in.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:41 am

Get a GPS and let him do what he was bred to.do.

Get a lab and watch him work if you want a close ranging dog.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:28 am

I agree with the GPS, but yeah there are some things you can do.

You can work the dog with an e-collar and "bend" the dog to the right or left by calling and nicking so that the dog turns at a range you find comfortable. As an example, if the dog is working out to your right and getting to the range where you wish the dog would turn...give the go a turn command, turn yourself to go in that direction and nick the dog.

If you are consistent with your prompts, the dog will learn what your comfort zone is and eventually go out, cross in front and work around back towards you befroe heading out again, which by the way is a pretty effective coverage strategy.

You can walk silently and without warning, or with one warning, turn in another direction, reverse your line of march or just stop, perhaps even hide. The dog will soon realize that you are not following and will come to look you up. A GPS on the dog is highly recommended for this strategy(for your peace of mind) unless you are walking in open fields where the dog can see you change direction.

It will take some time, but if the dog wants to hunt with you and for you, it will modify its search pattern and attenuate its range to keep you as part of the team.

RayG

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:20 pm

Ray has given good advice, as usual. I would teach him to bend on a checkcord, then in the open and finally transition to the woods.

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:20 pm

Congrats on developing a grouse dog! Does your dog check in with you every so often? Are you letting him have his run and occasionally decide he is "too big"? If he is checking in with you change directions on him more often than not. If you are letting him have the initial run, try hacking him right off the bat with either whistle or beep; I'm not a fan of bending a dog with electricity. Just curious, do you want to see it happen or are the birds not always holding? If he is holding them I'd get a GPS and enjoy.

jeff gruennert · Post by **jeff gruennert** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:35 pm

thanks for the responses i almost put in the op please help ray g

to answer bonasa yes i have pretty much just let him run he will check in every 15-20 min or so but it is those 30 min plus jaunts with no contact that make me a bit nervous also the grouse hold pretty well now but as the season goes on they seem to get a little more spooky as far as the gps goes 600 bucks for a garmin is not in the budget

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:46 am

Boy do I hear $600 buck's not in the budget. My Bodie could definitely use one but money doesn't grow on trees around here. Sometimes I wonder just how much of that Garman is profit for the manufacturer and the retailer. The first digital calculator I ever saw was really expensive at the time.
few years later they were within reason. Today you can get them from dirt cheap to expensive. Garman's have been around quite a while and have not gotten anywhere what most people would call affordable.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:58 pm

I can't help with the "big running" problem. The vizzie I'm training doesn't hunt out nearly far enough ! I do a lot of work in what we call "rashy ground" ..... the grass looks like rushes. Dogs get lost very easily in there and there are hundreds of acres of it. I'm hoping to get another brittany in a few months time and decided I needed a locator collar . I nearly fell off my perch when I read what price they are !

Bill T.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:59 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I can't help with the "big running" problem. The vizzie I'm training doesn't hunt out nearly far enough ! I do a lot of work in what we call "rashy ground" ..... the grass looks like rushes. Dogs get lost very easily in there and there are hundreds of acres of it. I'm hoping to get another brittany in a few months time and decided I needed a locator collar . I nearly fell off my perch when I read what price they are !

Bill T.

I had an early Garmin in my pickup when I was delivering RV trailers. Didn't cost any where near what the dog collar type cost's, not even close!

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:19 pm

carry some pigeons with you call the dog in and throw a pigeon . The dog will come when you call because you have what the dog wants. He will associate you with the birds , not too much or he will never leave your side. You could teach the dog to whoa and just stop him until you catch up. All this is difficult in the woods it only takes a couple of seconds for them to disappear. I have a Garmin , it updates every five seconds when it has full satellites, the dog can travel pretty far in five seconds you still need the bell or beeper to know where the dog is or youll spend all your time staring at the screen and running into trees. That said it is a great tool for when the dog gets out there and helps you to know where out there is.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:58 pm

I am told that Bill Gibbons uses a method he called "putting a clock" in a big running dog. I wish I could describe the method but hopefully some other AZ guys know the methond and can explaine it.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:02 pm

By the way guys -

The Astro is a really neat tool and gives you lots of feedback...but it is expensive and it does have some drawbacks and limkitations.

An older technology is available for about half what the Astro setup costs.

I came across this:

http://www.hdssupplies.com/tracker.html

And I searched on Tracker radio and found several suppliers who will sell a single dog tracker classic for $300, more or less. That would be all you would need.

Yeah i know that still ain't cheap, but it will let you know where your dog is and has a much longer range than the Astro. The collar will also keep on sending for many days where the Astro will crap out in about 12 hours. Sooo if my dog were really lost, I'd want a Tracker on him not an Astro.

The price of those units HAS come way down, mostly, I think due to the Astro. You really don't want to know what I paid for my Tracker Maxima 2 channel unit six or so years ago. The Tracker takes some getting used to, but once you figure it out, it can get you to your dog pretty quickly. With experience, you can get a good sense of how far away the dog is by the signal strength.

The Tracker system is the best of the radio location units as far as portablilty is concerned. It is very easy to carry the receiver with you afield. mine has been extremely reliable and it is build very sturdily.

I have both and I have used the Tracker a lot for training.

Just a somewhat more affordable option for you to consider.

RayG

jeff gruennert · Post by **jeff gruennert** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:52 pm

once agian thanks everbody for the suggestions. Maybe you folks could give me a couple more. after thinking about my dogs range i guess he has never not come back and the little s.o.b can really find birds and after a long summer of really trying to get him steady he seems to get it. I guess i would'nt mind his range if he had a more consistent pattern sometimes he's in back either side or out in front a very hard dog to follow and idea on how to keep him more in the "pocket" not sure if that is the correct term but hopefully somebody knows what i am talking about also if anbody in N.W. Wisconsin that hunts with a pointer ( any breed ) wants to get together for a hunt pm me I am starting to think there is a good possability that i am not a very good grouse hunter we could use my covers not trying to hot spot just learn from somebody that knows the game and how a dog should be handled in grouse woods. whew that was a ramble sorry

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:47 am

jeff gruennert wrote:once agian thanks everbody for the suggestions. Maybe you folks could give me a couple more. after thinking about my dogs range i guess he has never not come back and the little s.o.b can really find birds and after a long summer of really trying to get him steady he seems to get it. I guess i would'nt mind his range if he had a more consistent pattern sometimes he's in back either side or out in front a very hard dog to follow and idea on how to keep him more in the "pocket" not sure if that is the correct term but hopefully somebody knows what i am talking about also if anbody in N.W. Wisconsin that hunts with a pointer ( any breed ) wants to get together for a hunt pm me I am starting to think there is a good possability that i am not a very good grouse hunter we could use my covers not trying to hot spot just learn from somebody that knows the game and how a dog should be handled in grouse woods. whew that was a ramble sorry

Sounds like you have a great dog that field trial people would love to have on their string. He may be in the wrong job. Maybe he should be hunting sharp taills or huns.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:50 pm

You got a dog thats finding birds, thats great.
You can get and Astro or walk faster

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:09 pm

So the dog does not handle to the front. This is one of the biggest reasons that I want strong performing, all age field trial stock for my puppy prospects. As a hunter I want (I NEED) a front running dog - everything else is exasperating.

To the fellow who said put the dog with a field trialer - bullpucky. The dog will never win from behind and rarely get looked at to the side. Horseback All Age demands a strong front runner and is one of the greatest gifts to hunting stock there is.

To the OP - you can teach it, however at 5 yrs it will be tough because the dog has a strong sense of what it will do when loosed in the field. Put the dog on a CC in the yard and cue him to ALWAYS turn to the front as you move around. Extend the distance and change up the locations. This will take a strong, dedicated effort for the entire off season, repeating in different locations and extending the distance you allow the dog to go. If you put him in the woods before the behavior is absolutely, thoroughly ingrained you will only teach him that the behavior is situational - I pattern in the yard and the playground and the school yard and the off leash park but I go looking for birds where I want in the woods.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:15 am

ultracarry wrote:Get a GPS and let him do what he was bred to.do.

Get a lab and watch him work if you want a close ranging dog.

you are right.lab is nice close working dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:40 am

I never noticed a difference in breeding that made a dog run to the front only. It is pretty easy to trend them to the front when they are young but may be more of a problem as they get older but I haven't found it a big problem if you teach the dog what up front means and use it everytime they get behind. Normally will only take a few trips to get it through to the dogs. Make sure you are hunting into the wind while you are working on it.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:59 am

Naturally front running dogs do exist and they exist in good enough numbers to make breeding for them possible if you were to bother to look for it. Yes, you can teach it to some extent with many dogs, but as a breeder why would you bother with a dog you needed to teach it to when you can get it without the work and increase the odds that the buyers of your pups will not have to teach it.
Wind direction has nothing to do with it. The dog will either go with you or it won't.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:10 am

Very true Stephen, but I have had hunting dogs that, when I was walking down wind back to the truck, would have an extremely strong desire to hunt backwards or at best hunt cross wind. I always try to consider wind when running dogs, especially puppies just to encourage them hunting to the front. I prefer some sort of crosswind when hunting so I have a way back without encouraging backward hunting. Having said all that, they should have a strong desire to hunt to the front right from the get go, or I would have a hard time keeping them. Luckily, most, if not all the pointers I've had had that bred into them.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:18 am

Useful dogs absolutely know the wind is their friend and will use the wind to their advantage in the field. If they don't they aren't worth breeding regardless of any other attribute they show. But when push comes to shove, the dog must choose to go with you rather than follow the wind because that is what makes them a useful hunting dog.

Pointers as a rule have more "go with" than other breeds because pointer breeders over the years actually selected for it. Many other breeds have a long ways to go because breeders like Ezzy still persist.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:49 am

"To the fellow who said put the dog with a field trialer - bullpucky. The dog will never win from behind and rarely get looked at Nto the side. Horseback All Age demands a strong front runner and is one of the greatest gifts to hunting stock there is."

To this fellow - horsehocky-

All AA dogs don't come out of the mother's womb running to the front. That is an easier fix than trying to put range in a pup who doesn't have it. AA parents do not guarantee AA pups. Many experienced dog people say that you are lucky to get one AA pup out of a AA breeding.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:02 pm

[quote="slistoe"]Useful dogs absolutely know the wind is their friend and will use the wind to their advantage in the field. If they don't they aren't worth breeding regardless of any other attribute they show. But when push comes to shove, the dog must choose to go with you rather than follow the wind because that is what makes them a useful hunting dog.

Pointers as a rule have more "go with" than other breeds because pointer breeders over the years actually selected for it.

Agreed!

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:11 pm

slistoe wrote:Useful dogs absolutely know the wind is their friend and will use the wind to their advantage in the field. If they don't they aren't worth breeding regardless of any other attribute they show. But when push comes to shove, the dog must choose to go with you rather than follow the wind because that is what makes them a useful hunting dog.

Pointers as a rule have more "go with" than other breeds because pointer breeders over the years actually selected for it. Many other breeds have a long ways to go because breeders like Ezzy still persist.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:16 pm

slistoe wrote:Useful dogs absolutely know the wind is their friend and will use the wind to their advantage in the field. If they don't they aren't worth breeding regardless of any other attribute they show. But when push comes to shove, the dog must choose to go with you rather than follow the wind because that is what makes them a useful hunting dog.

Pointers as a rule have more "go with" than other breeds because pointer breeders over the years actually selected for it. Many other breeds have a long ways to go because breeders like Ezzy still persist.

You sure you don't mean still exist. But things are getting better as we are dying out rather rapidly it seems. I guess the truth is I have never seen the difference because all of the pups of practically every breed I have worked with that want to go with you and that means they hunt to the front if they have any desire to run, hunt, and find. Now with that said, all will get detracted by a thousand different scents they find including bird, mouse, or any other animal and will get behind. We work on correcting that as we go and in most it gets better with age. But even then, we never get it corrected, and that in itself is one of the main reasons we all use scouts when trialing. How many times have we all made the comment that one of the ways we judge a good scout is they can get the dog from behind out in front again without the judge seeing them. And I am sure we all know it is much easier to keep them there if we are hunting into the wind. That is why we all hunt that way when possible, why we all look for the dog that hunts the down wind side of the fence rows, and uses the wind to their advantage when ever possible.

I find hunting to the front translates quiet closely to desire to find birds while hunting with you.

Ezzy

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:17 pm

my SMALL MUNSTERLANDER at 5 months hunts zig/zag out in front of me and looks for me and gets out in front of me or stays out there.
ISNT THIS GREAT.i never had to do anything.today was his first wild bird ,woodcock and boy did the zig/zag in front of me got real good after that first wild bird.tail high ,flowing thru brush.
my lab toby did this also from a pup,zig/zag in front of me looking back every so often.

some dont like dog that stops and looks back,BOY I DO WHEN I AM IN THICK WOODS HERE IN PA.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:59 pm

Ezzy -

I cannot speak to other breeds, but there are definitely some pointers that consistently run to the front. I have seen some dogs that, o mtter how you turned and moved around...even if you turned 180 degrees and went completely backwards, before long the dog would appear out front, running like nothing happened. There are dogs that "just got it."

I have seen several dogs that were front running animals and when I looked into their pedigrees, just about every one had in their lineage the combination Bayou Teche Willie and Moonraker Crestline... a couple had it in there twice. I have no idea why that particular combination brought that trait forward, but I am pretty convinced from my observations, that it has.

RayG

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:47 pm

I think it is safe to say that their are no absoluts on this topic. I have dogs that sometimes run at 9 or 3 when there is a reason to, such as good cover and clear objectives. We can't hunt upwind all day. I have had dogs loop back and find birds behind me. I have had "seasoned judges" tell me that getting behind from time to time is no tragedy as long as the dog shows good hunting instinc and is doing the other things right. FWIW

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:55 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I think it is safe to say that their are no absoluts on this topic. I have dogs that sometimes run at 9 or 3 when there is a reason to, such as good cover and clear objectives. We can't hunt upwind all day. I have had dogs loop back and find birds behind me. I have had "seasoned judges" tell me that getting behind from time to time is no tragedy as long as the dog shows good hunting instinc and is doing the other things right. FWIW

Which is why progress with some breeds will always be far behind what has happened with the pointer. And I am not just talking about AA field trial dogs here, I am talking about a behavior that is of great importance to anyone who hunts with a dog - an innate desire, no, a NEED, to be in front of the hunter/partner.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:06 pm

I think finding birds trumps running to the front. I have a AA Britt that runs between 800 yards and 1.5 miles to the front (Garmin) and AF long tail judges that put him up in front of other breeds. He doesn't find as many birds as some of my other dogs. But he sure looks pretty running ridges when I can see him. I'd rather run a gun dog,

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:36 pm

I don't care if you have an AA dog, a Gun Dog or a Heinz 57 - if you can't trust the dog to show to the front then you can't trust the dog to hunt.
Have you ever won a Gun Dog stake from behind? I would bet not. The only "trial" format that you will have a hope in hades of making a placement in with a dog that hunts willy nilly where it will might be NSTRA, but even then I would put it as iffy.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:37 pm

PS - in front is not a distance.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:44 pm

slistoe wrote:PS - in front is not a distance.

ok you win.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote: You sure you don't mean still exist. But things are getting better as we are dying out rather rapidly it seems.

It would seem from this thread alone that the lack of recognition that natural front running dogs exist is quite alive.

ezzy333 wrote:I guess the truth is I have never seen the difference because all of the pups of practically every breed I have worked with that want to go with you and that means they hunt to the front if they have any desire to run, hunt, and find.

OK. So you are working with much better bred dogs than I have.

ezzy333 wrote:Now with that said, all will get detracted by a thousand different scents they find including bird, mouse, or any other animal and will get behind. We work on correcting that as we go and in most it gets better with age.

And the ones that I am talking about self correct - at a relatively young age.

ezzy333 wrote:But even then, we never get it corrected, and that in itself is one of the main reasons we all use scouts when trialing. How many times have we all made the comment that one of the ways we judge a good scout is they can get the dog from behind out in front again without the judge seeing them.

We? You are trialing? The scouts primary purpose is to find a dog that has been overlooked on point.

ezzy333 wrote:And I am sure we all know it is much easier to keep them there if we are hunting into the wind.

Actually, it is easiest for a dog to hold the front when running with a crosswind.

ezzy333 wrote:That is why we all hunt that way when possible,

Every time I leave the truck to go hunting I go in a full 360 degree circle hitting as many birdy areas as possible. Wouldn't it be nice if we could order a circling wind that would follow us around so the dog wouldn't have to actually think about how to approach the cover - heck, any old mutt could look good then.

ezzy333 wrote:why we all look for the dog that hunts the down wind side of the fence rows, and uses the wind to their advantage when ever possible.

Right after a need to hold the front, this is a characteristic that a good prospect will show you - even before it knows what or why it is looking in a piece of cover it will be recognizing and using the wind.

ezzy333 wrote:I find hunting to the front translates quiet closely to desire to find birds while hunting with you.

Ezzy

As AZ Brittany Guy has pointed out, hunting to the front and desiring to find birds do not necessarily go hand in hand. Hunting to the front and hunting with you are synonymous.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:30 pm

Thanks for breaking that down so we can all understand that we both have said basically the same thing. I am sure it will help some of our newer members.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:55 am

Eight points and I disagreed with 7 of them - but we said basically the same thing?
Like I said earlier, breeders who believe that front running dogs must be made will never look for, or select for, natural front runners in their program and progress will not be made.

Croix · Post by **Croix** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:17 pm

Come on Sli,

Haven't you figured out ezzy knows all. Just ask. Also brits are superior.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:27 am

Croix wrote:Come on Sli,

Haven't you figured out ezzy knows all. Just ask. Also brits are superior.

For some people, if you disagree or have a different method of training, you are ignorant and the word "stupid" has even been used. Also assuming that because a person owns a certain breed, that he/she believes that breed is superior to all others, couldn't be further from the truth. Especially when he/she has never said or insinuated that.

Charlie