So now How do I train Flush on command to my Britt

[mobeasto123]

Here it is After my first post about those runnning grouse in Hunting board

Hi there, I mostly hunt Ruffed grouse and Woodcocks .. But the problem is the ruffed grouse. I'll try to make it short, The problem isn't really the dog cause he point them and is really able to pin them down. The problem is I'm not able to flush them because they run everytime. When they move my dog move to poin them again and pin them again, He don't bump or flush them he makes it like a cat in hunt a mouse he really got the cat walk till he get on point again. When I go again In front of the dog they stand like statues and I'm able to move to about 5-10 to them and sometime closer And instead of flying they run like Usain bolt.. I tried to throw rocks or branches at them and sometime directly on them They are just stuck on the ground..

How should I train flush on command.. I know that my dog will move If I tell him ''OK'' and that he will stop when the bird flush and shot till I tell him to move.. Is there anything i need to Flush on command or my dog is mostly ready..

Thanks
David

[slistoe]

Tell you dog OK. He is released to go in on the bird. Be sure you enforce the stop at flush. You are good to go.

[Doc E]

I wouldn't train Flush on Command to a pointing dog until it has had at least two years of real hunting.
When you do, give it the "send off" command (as long as you have STF down pat).



.

[3Britts]

What you really need to do is get another dog that will help pin down the birds and keep your dog pointing.

[mobeasto123]

wouldn't train Flush on Command to a pointing dog until it has had at least two years of real hunting.
When you do, give it the "Fetch" command (as long as you have FF).

My dog is 3 years old.. he is been trained after his 1st season to point correctly and be steady to wing and shot.. He's been also force Fetched..

Last year was his first real season after the training .. it's been hard at the begining but it finished in beauty. My dog point, relocate on birds is steady to wing and shot and fetch like a Lab...
This season From what I could say is perfect from the beginning and hope this will go on like that.

I think I will try on a few birds and see what it does..

[slistoe]

You don't want the dog to flush on the "fetch" command because that command would require that the dog continue in efforts to get the bird in its mouth be it a flying bird, running bird or dead bird. In the flush on command scenario the dog is still held to giving up the effort at the flush of the bird. Release the dog from point and hold him to the stop to flush. Give the fetch command to release when the bird goes down. The dog will learn the sequence.

[Trekmoor]

Seen from another point of view you have made your dog "sticky" on point. It believes that to move in fast or perhaps to move in on the birds at all is "wrong ?" I am very wary about doing that to my dogs for, in this country, it is considered to be a serious fault. We do not move in front of a pointing dog for if we did then, in a trial, it is likely we would be eliminated. Our dogs must flush the bird or birds on command.

The initial training is therefor different to what you are probably used to. I watch for a pup beginning to point game rather than rushing straight in. I then very quietly praise just enough of those points to gain steadiness on point. With that achieved I never praise a dog for pointing again in it's entire lifetime. I begin to teach the command to flush .....which the dog probably wants to do anyway ! If the dog is a bit sticky that is the only time I will move in front of it. I at once rush forward and try to turn it into a race between me and the dog to flush the bird. I have even been known to teach a dog to move forward to eat a sausage thrown in front of it upon hearing the flush command !

By now I am praising for a strong flush and not for the point. The dog is initially allowed to chase the game it flushes as a reward.From there I begin to cease to praise the flush and insert a previously taught whistle sit command as the bird is flushed. The dog is then praised only for the sit or stop to flush.

I never use anything other than a whistle and perhaps a checkcord for any of this training and I find I never need to. Pointing breeds are born to point, it is the other little things that go with the point that need help from me. Basically , I don't over emphasise the point in the dogs mind. I have never had a dog move in to flush without a command in a trial and I have never had a dog run in to flush, to shot or to fall of game in a trial but I was once and once only eliminated from a trial for having a dog that did not flush readily on command.

I hope some of that makes sense ?

Bill T.

[DonF]

I have heard of one dog trained to do that, I would not do it. It is contrary to what you've already taught the dog to do. I used to teach the dog's to re-locate hard on the birds by sendiong them in and when they got within maybe ten yards pop the bird on them. I'm not sure what would happen if the had got to flush. I simply wouldn't mess with it and I wiouldn't put a flushing dog down with your dog. You could un-train your dog!

[4dabirds]

I have heard of one dog trained to do that, I would not do it. It is contrary to what you've already taught the dog to do. I used to teach the dog's to re-locate hard on the birds by sendiong them in and when they got within maybe ten yards pop the bird on them. I'm not sure what would happen if the had got to flush. I simply wouldn't mess with it and I wiouldn't put a flushing dog down with your dog. You could un-train your dog!

How is training a pointing dog to flush after it has learned to hold point steady contrary . Please explain how a flushing dog would un-train the pointing dog.

[DonF]

First you get your dog to point and all is good. Then you tur5n around and have it flush on command. I had heard of one dog years ago that was taugh that but teaching the dog to point, them turning around and teaching it to flush, gotta be mixed signals for the dog. Take you pointing dog out and runit with a flushing dog for a season and unless the handler of the flushing dog can stop his dog, I strongly suspect the flushing dog will untrain the pointing dog. What happens when the flushing dog put's up a bird? It get's shot; right in front of your pointong dog. How many times will that happen before the pointing dog come's to realize that when the other dog flush's a bird, it get shot. I suspect that that will be the undoing of a lot of training.

[ezzy333]

First you get your dog to point and all is good. Then you tur5n around and have it flush on command. I had heard of one dog years ago that was taugh that but teaching the dog to point, them turning around and teaching it to flush, gotta be mixed signals for the dog. Take you pointing dog out and runit with a flushing dog for a season and unless the handler of the flushing dog can stop his dog, I strongly suspect the flushing dog will untrain the pointing dog. What happens when the flushing dog put's up a bird? It get's shot; right in front of your pointong dog. How many times will that happen before the pointing dog come's to realize that when the other dog flush's a bird, it get shot. I suspect that that will be the undoing of a lot of training.

I think we have all seen it too many times. Not saying it can't be done, but really question the wisdom of it.

Ezzy

[AzDoggin]

I would guess a person would only want to train this on a mature dog that is very trainable, and already staunch in every way. To me, it would take a pretty special dog at an advanced state of training to perform point and flush as well. Not all dogs ever get there, right?

[Trekmoor]

Sorry to be controversial but I disagree. I train (and so does just about everyone else here) every pup I get to hold point until I arrive and then flush the bird on command and then to become steady to the flush. It isn't difficult and it doesn't need a "special" or an older dog. If I have had the pup from 8 weeks it is likely to be doing all that long before it is 12 months old.

If I lived in America then I would have to "style" the pup on point if I wanted to have any success in trials with it. Since our trials don't require that kind of "style" I don't train for it and can therefor avoid the fussing and "handling" on point that can lead to what we would consider to be a "sticky" dog.
If someone "only" wants to shoot over his dog in the U.S. is "styling on point" still essential ?

Bill T.

[slistoe]

If I lived in America then I would have to "style" the pup on point if I wanted to have any success in trials with it. Since our trials don't require that kind of "style" I don't train for it and can therefor avoid the fussing and "handling" on point that can lead to what we would consider to be a "sticky" dog.
If someone "only" wants to shoot over his dog in the U.S. is "styling on point" still essential ?

Bill T.

Thanks for stepping in on the training to flush on command bit. On this issue, as with many others, folks won't believe it is possible if they haven't seen it or have tried and they couldn't do it.
As for the "style" bit - you are rather off the mark. Style is not trained. Dogs are born with "style". The trick in training is to retain the style through the steadying process. Fussing with a dog on point is usually detrimental to style IME. Sticky dogs can be trained, but the better idea is to have sticky dogs born. To me, "stickiness" is a highly desireable trait (since I am not working with springers) and those dogs who are born with enough point that you cannot make them move when they have a bird pinned are the ones I want to see. No training required.

[Doc E]

I think we have all seen it too many times. Not saying it can't be done, but really question the wisdom of it.

Ezzy

At least 50% of the Grouse we shoot out here are in locations where a human couldn't get through the vegetation.
So, at least 50% of the grouse that we shoot have to be flushed by the dog.



.

[Doc E]

1. I train (and so does just about everyone else here) every pup I get to hold point until I arrive and then flush the bird on command and then to become steady to the flush. It isn't difficult and it doesn't need a "special" or an older dog. If I have had the pup from 8 weeks it is likely to be doing all that long before it is 12 months old.

2. If someone "only" wants to shoot over his dog in the U.S. is "styling on point" still essential ?

Bill T.

1. That's exactly what we do with our dogs ----- Has NEVER caused a problem.
2. "Style" looks very very cool, but I don't think it puts birds in the bag.



.

[slistoe]

2. "Style" looks very very cool, but I don't think it puts birds in the bag.



.

Punt guns put birds in the bag.

[ezzy333]

I think we have all seen it too many times. Not saying it can't be done, but really question the wisdom of it.

Ezzy

At least 50% of the Grouse we shoot out here are in locations where a human couldn't get through the vegetation.
So, at least 50% of the grouse that we shoot have to be flushed by the dog.

I am not saying it can't be done with a young dog but I am questioning the wisdom of it with a pup thet has just been trained to hold it's point forever or as Slisitoe has said the ones that are born steady. But again, it can be done if that is what you want to do.

Ezzy

[DonF]

If youn live and/or hunt in an area where a flushing dog is more desireable, why get a pointing dog in the first place or why teact it to point in the first place? I had very good luck years ago hunting grouse with a Springer Spaniel. I don't go to cover better suited to a flushing dog with pointing dogs, why would you?

[4dabirds]

First you get your dog to point and all is good. Then you tur5n around and have it flush on command. I had heard of one dog years ago that was taugh that but teaching the dog to point, them turning around and teaching it to flush, gotta be mixed signals for the dog. Take you pointing dog out and runit with a flushing dog for a season and unless the handler of the flushing dog can stop his dog, I strongly suspect the flushing dog will untrain the pointing dog. What happens when the flushing dog put's up a bird? It get's shot; right in front of your pointong dog. How many times will that happen before the pointing dog come's to realize that when the other dog flush's a bird, it get shot. I suspect that that will be the undoing of a lot of training.

As far as teaching a dog to flush I do not see it any differently as allowing a dog to retrieve that is steady to shot. By the logic you are using ,retrieving will ruin a dogs point. I think allowing a dog to retrieve before it is steady will make the job of steadying more difficult but done in sequence it is not a problem. Retrieving or flushing ,It is just a different cue at the time of release. I see your point with the flushing dog hunting with a pointing dog. I envisioned the flushing dog only used to flush the birds the pointing dog is pointing. I think once the pointing dog is performing as a conditioned response the flushing dog would not get the dog unglued. A lot of people would not go to that level of training for a pointing dog.

[tasi devil]

mobeasto 123, you need to listen to trekmoor, he's nailed it.

we do exactly the same here as trekmoor does over there.

sounds like your mostly there, i use 'okay' as my general release command. i use 'git im' as my flush command.
it's important to have an entirely separate command that is taught as all commands are, in the yard/paddock, on a checkcord, with pigeons etc.
i don't talk to the dog while on point, i wait till he has locked up, get to a position where i can take a shot, snap the gun shut, safety off. when he hears that snap, he tightens up tighter than a drum. then he knows the next thing he hears is 'git im' . the birds will quite often come off their nose.

we have similar hunting cover & trial rules to trekmoor .......the dog must flush, then be steady to the flush;
otherwise often you can't get the bird up or your out of the trial.
when hunting, it so convenient, when a dog is in cover, on a rocky slope, over a creek, to have a flush on command. we also allow dogs to road birds till pinned.
to have a dog that will be able to road 2-500yds, pin down, lock up, flush on command, be steady to flush/shot/fall, then retrieve to hand.........that's a pointing dog

i can't for the life of me understand why youse blokes have a dog that hunts & points game, then a 6' human walks in front of the dog, having no idea exactly where the bird is & kicking the dirt to make it flush.

..............tasi

[Trekmoor]

i can't for the life of me understand why youse blokes have a dog that hunts & points game, then a 6' human walks in front of the dog, having no idea exactly where the bird is & kicking the dirt to make it flush.

..............tasi

Doing your own flushing has me puzzled too. The dog knows where the bird is so getting the dog to flush it allows the hunter to get well placed for a shot before he has commanded the flush. The dog "presents" the bird for the hunter to shoot at. Like Tasi, I often use this flush command which I can give by voice or by whistle to get the dog to flush the bird for me from awkward places for me to get to or from cover thick enough to make shooting very difficult or impossible.

I used to use the whistle commanded flush to send my dogs in to flush during spring grouse counts here. I could command a flush from 100 yards away up the side of very steep hills while I counted the flushed birds from down the hill. It saved me an awful lot of hill climbing ! If the dog had been trained steadiness to flush doing this was not a problem.

I appreciate that this commanded flush is not the way things are done in U.S. field trials but for the man who just wants to go hunting it works very well. If the training has been good it does not make dogs unsteady on point.

Bill T.

[AzDoggin]

Hey Bill, one thing we've also decided is that humans put more limits on the dogs than necessary at times. Sometimes we underestimate the skills and behaviors that dog is capable of. I'm honestly not surprised that dogs are capable of serving in pointing AND flushing roles. They are some amazing critters, for sure.

Field trials are just that - trials. They mostly, but not in every way, simulate the hunt.

[Almenson]

In Sweden, our pointing dogs are trained to flush on command and, after the flush, to be calm and sit.
The first clip shows a swedish dog trainer and his way of training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOTngQDu ... ure=relmfu

Next clip is with the same dog trainer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj7m9zSs ... ure=relmfu

[DonF]

i can't for the life of me understand why youse blokes have a dog that hunts & points game, then a 6' human walks in front of the dog, having no idea exactly where the bird is & kicking the dirt to make it flush.

..............tasi

It's not often I don't know where the bird is my dogs pointed. To many people stop the dog on first secnt, often the dog has scent then but poor location. There have been time's when a pheasant. of all things, held so tight in dense cover I had trouble finding it but wher I'd try to relocate the dog it would not relocate. That always tells me the bird is right there. Usually right under the dogs nose. Most people want to see the dog's head up, I could care less. The highter the dog's head the farther off the bird, the lower the head the closer the bird. I am not one of those guy's taht will roto till an acre of ground looking for a bird. i find it right now or relocate. Part of the dog's job is to accurately locate the bird.

[slistoe]

i can't for the life of me understand why youse blokes have a dog that hunts & points game, then a 6' human walks in front of the dog, having no idea exactly where the bird is & kicking the dirt to make it flush.

..............tasi

It's not often I don't know where the bird is my dogs pointed.

What Don said.
Good dogs have birds located and held.

[Trekmoor]

The following film clip isn't meant to show a dog running and hunting hard. It was taken by me as the vizsla bitch I'm training plus one of my cockers were doing what is called "dogging in ." I use the cocker in the nastier cover and also when the wind is blowing the wrong way for a dog to get a good point while, more or less, herding pheasants back in towards the centre of shooting estates.
A dog that will adjust it's range and pace to deal with working along the walls, fences, ditches and hedges the birds stray along without panicking dozens of birds into panicked flight is a useful animal.
Doing this kind of work gives me many chances to work on the pointing dogs steadiness to flush. In the very beginning of the film clip my spaniel charges in and ruins what could have been a good point but the birds he flushed still went in the right direction from the gamekeepers point of view...... I wasn't quite so pleased !

Next scene shows a find on a hare by the vizzie. You will see her turn to look at me as the the hare runs off, it's just another kind of steadiness for she has retrieved hares, she knows what they are and that they are great fun to chase.
The further little "hunt" along the wall shows her flushing to command and remaining steady to flush although she did not sit.

The rest of the film is just a blind retrieve per dog from a little island in a pond. My apologies for the poor camera work. I find it difficult to keep control of two dogs in a very heavily scented game situation and to work a camera at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMYwFuENHTo

Bill T.

[3Britts]

I am still of the opinion that if you want your dog to flush, you should get a flushing dog to compliment your pointing dogs. Both dogs will be happier.

[slistoe]

I am still of the opinion that if you want your dog to flush, you should get a flushing dog to compliment your pointing dogs. Both dogs will be happier.

Are you thinking that you will run them together? I have done that - you need a much higher level of training on your pointing dog than you will need to have the dog staunch, flush and stop to flush.

[3Britts]

I have run pointing and flushing dogs together, and you are right in that the pointing dog has to be "trained" well. But, I woulld think that running both would be better than trying to get a pointing dog to flush. It just goes against the training to point and hold.

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

Here it is After my first post about those runnning grouse in Hunting board

Hi there, I mostly hunt Ruffed grouse and Woodcocks .. But the problem is the ruffed grouse. I'll try to make it short, The problem isn't really the dog cause he point them and is really able to pin them down. The problem is I'm not able to flush them because they run everytime. When they move my dog move to poin them again and pin them again, He don't bump or flush them he makes it like a cat in hunt a mouse he really got the cat walk till he get on point again. When I go again In front of the dog they stand like statues and I'm able to move to about 5-10 to them and sometime closer And instead of flying they run like Usain bolt.. I tried to throw rocks or branches at them and sometime directly on them They are just stuck on the ground..

How should I train flush on command.. I know that my dog will move If I tell him ''OK'' and that he will stop when the bird flush and shot till I tell him to move.. Is there anything i need to Flush on command or my dog is mostly ready..

Thanks
David

Possibly the Brit in question on this topic is a slow working dog, working in not the thickest of cover. Most ruffed grouse will adios quickly under those conditions. If this is truely a shoe polisher, work on running out from you. If he is a quick worker, try working to the grouse in more of a circular manner rather than straight up past the dog. The dog is still very young to consistantly handle Bonasa consistantly. An old hunting article was titled "the first 500 Grouse". A lot of truth in that magazine article. Good Luck.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I saw with my own eyes, the definitive answer to this dilemma.

A gent I knew had a GSP he had trained to take a single forward step when on point and then...to resume pointing. Joe could walk Inky in on a tight sitting bird...one step at a time until the bird flushed. I wish I could tell you how he did it...but he is gone now and I was too dumb to ask at the time.

His dog would hunt until she fell over on her nose, was as broke as could be...start to finish... and was high on both ends throughout. Awesome stuff.

RayG

[AzDoggin]

Guys -

I saw with my own eyes, the definitive answer to this dilemma.

A gent I knew had a GSP he had trained to take a single forward step when on point and then...to resume pointing. Joe could walk Inky in on a tight sitting bird...one step at a time until the bird flushed. I wish I could tell you how he did it...but he is gone now and I was too dumb to ask at the time.

His dog would hunt until she fell over on her nose, was as broke as could be...start to finish... and was high on both ends throughout. Awesome stuff.

RayG

Wow.

Obviously a special dog AND a special handler.

[Ruffshooter]

[Ruffshooter]

A little different version of, what Ray describes is called a Coulee, in French FCI, EB trials. Essentially it is a a walking with the owner relocate and the dog will reestablish point. I do not remember if it was allowed for the dog to flush the bird then stop to flush once the bird moved. (I don't think so as Buster and I were thrown out when the bird flushed into his face and he chased. ) It is an accepted practice in the trial format. When the bird flushes the dog must remain steady. The dog also must stop to flush if I remember correctly. Mark Dinsmore, could tell you on this one. I have only done two of those type trials.

As for flushing on command this is done over in Europe all the time. I would think it is not a far cry from the fetch command. But it would take a pure plan to get it done correctly.

Ruffs walk away from dogs all the time. Then you relocate the dog. It happens, If there is to much distance between them and the dog and or to much time passes till you get to the dog and bird. The other thing that happens often is a dog will come up on Ruff very fast and the bird will go straight up into a tree, flush away, or bury itself in a blow down etc. If all works well your dog will scent that bird and the bird will be maybe 15 to twenty yards away from the dog and can see it. That is generally when a bird is considered "pinned" (or it is right near a blow down or log). All kinds of different things happen and dogs can get birds pinned, relocate etc.

When hunting alone on occasion I try to get my steady dogs to move forward and they look at me like I am nuts, which may not be to far from the truth.

[h&t]

mobeasto, when I said on another forum you should teach your dog to flush, I knew it would cause a sh.tstorm
US training forum is not the best place to ask for an advice for that. You're lucky to have Bill (trekmoor) chime in here
North American and European styles of hunting with pointing dogs are different, have been for a very long time.
Understandably the training is different and the breeding is different.

Except for an odd Euro ex-pat, flushing pointing dog is a taboo and won't be touched.

I spoke with one training book author and asked about that and the answer was - I tell me dogs to flush in a difficult situation, but don't tell anyone! :roll:

My dog has been trained to move forward and take food on the same command (the word doesn't matter).
When she's pointing and I want her to flush (say in tag alder woodcock thickets where you're lucky to find a spot you can swing the gun), I get into my shooting position and give the command. My dog is a Small Munsterlander and she has no problem flushing birds. Some other dogs you couldn't move off the point. That's the breeding.
In Europe they'd be called super sticky and as Bill said - it's not a good thing. In the US it is. I don't want to start an argument about what's better and such and so on

[cjhills]

I always have thought holding point until I arrived, flushing on command and stopping to flush would be the best scenario. Never tried it.
One question for the people who do this: If your dog points along ways off say 40,50 or 60 yards, How do you keep the flush in range? CJ

[Trekmoor]

Now that is a good question ! I encourage my dogs to move in on a bird in little spurts. I command "Get in !" and in the dog goes but maybe only for 10 feet and it then stops and repoints. I move closer to the dog and repeat the flush command and so on and so on until the bird flushes. It's odd but I have never really thought about how I train for this ....it just seems to happen.

As h&t says, this is common practice in Europe. Some dogs are "stickier" than others. I have seen pointer/setter handlers at field trials trying to get their dogs to move in and flush by keeping their feet behind the dogs front paws (if they went in front of the dogs paws they could be eliminated from the trial) and then bending over and reaching out to shake the heather with their hands to stimulate their sticky dogs into moving. ...... I have never seen one of these heather shakers win a trial.

A dog commanded to flush may move in steadily or it may move in with a rush but it must move in if it wants to remain in the trial.

Bill T.