My Mistake

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Kansas
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My Mistake

Post by Kansas » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:58 am

I screwed up and need help. I have a Viszla female that is about 15 months old. I screwed up and she caught a quail when I was training her last November. Now I still can’t get her to hold point. I have got her whoa broke except when she smells a bird; any other time I say whoa and she will freeze. She will not listen to me at all when I say whoa if she smells birds. She will not always jump into the birds but she pressures them too much and they flush. I have tried a wing in the back yard and she will creep until her nose is about ½ inch away from it. The only way I can whoa her is with a lead. What works best is a half hitch around her waist. As soon as I take the lead off she will creep right back in until her nose is almost touching the wing. I have an older dog that I have worked her with that will hold forever hoping she would learn from him; not much luck with that. As long as I have her on a lead and can stop her she is will point; give her some slack and she wants to put her nose right on the wing. She doesn’t try to grab the wing just put her nose on it. I have an e-collar but trying not to use it in this situation. I ran her with my older dogs last year and she did great on cripples and dead birds,retrieves to hand. Ran her on my place the other day and she pushed some wild quail to hard and they flushed before I tried to whoa her. Any help would be appreciated; she has a great nose and a lousy trainer.

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ACooper
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My Mistake

Post by ACooper » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:40 pm

Stop using the wing on a string yesterday.

Do you have access to launchers or wild birds?

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deseeker
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Re: My Mistake

Post by deseeker » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:26 pm

ACooper wrote:Stop using the wing on a string yesterday.

Do you have access to launchers or wild birds?
X2

Kansas
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Re: My Mistake

Post by Kansas » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:43 pm

I have a remote bird launcher, tried that and she still wanted to get her nose right up against the launcher. She got close enouogh to the launcher to look at it then started barking. So I lead her away, I think I am better off putting birds asleep.

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jcbuttry8
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Re: My Mistake

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:48 pm

The point of using the launcher is to pop it when she moves after first scent. I always brought mine in cross wind and let her snap towards the bird. If she took even one step towards it, I popped the bird. You cannot let her creep to the trap at all. Putting the bird to sleep is only going to allow the pup to get away with stepping. you are only creating more of an issue. Don't say a word, let the bird teach her to stop. Go slow and be patient.

M2C,

Joe

Kansas
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Re: My Mistake

Post by Kansas » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:42 pm

Thanks I will try that next week. How many birds would you suggest per training session?

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cstokes/southeast,ks
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Re: My Mistake

Post by cstokes/southeast,ks » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:03 pm

I I have a feeling Joe's advice will workout for ya! The remote launcher is perfect for your problem if you use it the way as described above.
Where do you live in Kansas?

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DonF
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Re: My Mistake

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:07 pm

Probably take a bit longer as she's learned she can pull that and get away with it. Lose the quail and get some pigeon's. Those quail might just plop back down where she can get them for sure. When a pigeon is popped, it fly's off and set's in a tree or just goes home. Bring th3e dog cross wind and the moment she makes game pop the bird, don't let her get set. Shouldn't take to long and she'll point before you can pop the bird. Do not talk to her at all. Make a circle around her and watch her intently. She so much as cast's a glance at you, pop the bird. You need to teach her that her movement
Kansas wrote:I have a remote bird launcher, tried that and she still wanted to get her nose right up against the launcher. She got close enough to the launcher to look at it then started barking. So I lead her away, I think I am better off putting birds asleep.
is moving the bird.

Your miss use, please don't be offended, of the launcher is obvious when you stated that she get's her nose right up to the launcher. There's only one way that can happen and that is if you don't pop the bird soon enough. Again please don't be offended, but you taught her to do what she's doing. Make believe that that bird in the launcher is a wild bird. Ever seen many wild birds allow a dog to get that close? I haven't. Don't think like a trainer, think like a wild bird.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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cstokes/southeast,ks
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Re: My Mistake

Post by cstokes/southeast,ks » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Kansas wrote:Thanks I will try that next week. How many birds would you suggest per training session?

As far as the amount of birds per session... I have a hard time putting a number on it. Just end each session on a good note (more productive than the day before) and keep working towards the desired result. Even if she takes one or two less steps than the day before that is more productive than the day before. Don’t rush it.

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4dabirds
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Re: My Mistake

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:02 pm

If the dog is not stopping on the whoa command the dog is not whoa trained. If you have introduced the collar to the dog on the whoa command the level you are using is not significant enough to the dog, considering the distraction. I agree with you not to use the collar in the presence of a bird as this may create a problem . What is necessary to have the dog whoa under distraction is to have the collar have a deterring effect. This is something to train in the yard and then generalized in the field with no birds. As far as the dog roading in on the birds I see this from a different perspective from joe. I see the flight of the bird as being rewarding to the dog. The dog perceives his actions as the cause of the reaction. I move in and the bird flies. I think it is better to have the dog perceive his action of whoaing as causing the bird to fly. Now you are not fighting the dogs nature to get the dog to stand still on the bird. Put the dog on a barrel and as soon as the dog hits the barrel the bird is launched 20 yards away with no scent. You can use a tie out on the ground with a short chain attached to a spike collar to stop the dog from chasing if he comes off the barrel. The dog soon learns that there is no use in coming off the barrel. The barrel becomes the dogs switch for the bird to fly. Transition this to a board then to the ground . Command whoa launch a bird. Now the dog has a positive reinforcer for the whoa command as well as a deterrent . Once you have got this down with no scent and the dog is whoaing on command introduce the scent by bringing the dog into the scent cone at a cross wind. When the dog turns on the scent say whoa launch the bird. Since dogs will learn to anticipate known commands by cues given in their environment, the dog will start to stop on the scent before the command is given You have now trained the dog that bird scent is the command for whoa. If the dog is not whoaing do not give the command if you have no way of correcting non compliance. Also never use the bird in the launcher as a scent bird. Place a locked winged pigeon well hidden in grass or cover several yards away from launcher, this will keep the dog from getting to close to the launcher.

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Re: My Mistake

Post by Kansas » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:16 pm

I live in Wichita, but hunt all over Kansas. I don't have the places to hunt I used to before joining the Army, to many people have passed and their family sold off the land. I use my leave during bird season and hunt three to four days a week. I have 80 acres around Burden that I am developing for quail and last year had four coveys. As far as offending me I spent 20 years Army Infantry and have thick skin. I know I screwed up but am smart enough to know when to ask for help. I should have figured out when she acted birdy to launch the bird if when she acted birdy and didn't point. She has a strong hunting drive so I am sure she can work out of my mistake. I would be willing to use pigeons but I haven't been able to find any around here. I appreciate all the advice I receive.

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jcbuttry8
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Re: My Mistake

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:31 pm

I am just passing along the great advice I had received from Doco on this site. I was told two a week and that is it. Anymore than that, and you are just filling your needs not the dogs. I ran on that advice and as much as it pained me for three weeks that is all I did. Took her out, popped two birds, loaded her up and went home. On the fourth week, she locked up on point and allowed me to walk in and flush without breaking. Has been good on point ever since. Now, I am not saying that it will work that way with your pup but It sure is a better plan than what you have been using. It may be a few more weeks due to her set backs but she will get there. I field trial, so the saying I was given was " Derby for a year, shooting dog for life." Same principle goes with hunting. Take your time and run on her schedule. If she is not ready to hunt this season then you wait til next season. It will be worth the wait and the patience that you show. It sucks and is very hard but it is worth the wait.

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jcbuttry8
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Re: My Mistake

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:44 pm

Here is an ad on Craigslist. It is in Newton, KS. Posted under Wichita so I am guessing not to far from you.

I am posting this for a friend that does not have internet so no emails please.

He has 300 pigeons for sale wich are the barn type homeing pigeons they are 5 dollars each unless you buy 100 or more then the price is ng. if no answer please leave message with phone number Darryl 316-253-1657


Give them a call and get started.

Joe

Kansas
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Re: My Mistake

Post by Kansas » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:59 pm

Thanks about the birds I will give him a call tomorrow.

Wildweeds
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Re: My Mistake

Post by Wildweeds » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:24 pm

Okay,since you've got the thick skin................. this is EXACTLY what I would do,you've stated you have an older dog that points,use that dog to get your bird killing done with,do not hunt the offender and the older dog together,give up on all the aforementioned tactics they are all FAKE FAKE FAKE setups,they will work but you have to be perfect in your timing.Since you have stated that you have the ability to hunt 3-4 days a week...................... take that pup out and play the age old game of point em or knock em,she will give up the knocking and chasing,she will start to point on her own.............. WHEN SHE GET'S ONE POINTED.....................DO NOT MISS!.Continue to repeat this process,day after day,Quitting on a positve note is your friend,if the dog points and you kill............ stop right there for the day,work up to multiple birds,if your on the way back to the truck and the dog locks it down,shoot that one too. I had some pups about 10 years ago that I did not fiddle with other than gun breaking,one pointed the first bird she ever encountered and the other was ran for 27 hours worth of hunting before she pointed a bird,she knocked a whole bunch,I got that first pointed bird killed for her and it was like the light bulb coming on.By the end of that season I had killed a bunch of birds over her and she had broke herself of chasing wild flushers.You've got the time,the ability to just go hunt,why waste time with fake scenarios.Also "Whoa" is never for around birds,just forget you ever heard about whoa.Take a piece of duct tape and slap it across your mouth and follow the dog,guide it's path with your body language and direction of travel.

I'm about to start using my method again on 4 pups,it ain't my method though it's been used along long time before,pigeons,launchers,pen raised birds were ever even dreamed of.Point em or knock em.I used it last week on another young one,he knocked one,gave a slight chase,turned to go with me and pointed the second from 15 feet away,I flushed and killed it for him,done for the day,2 days later I put out one bird,he found it,pointed from about the same distance,I hustled up there and flushed and killed it for him again.Never said one word to him,you got the time................ do you have the patience?Wild birds are your best freind in a situation like you have on your hands,unpredictable and won't put up with nonsense.

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Re: My Mistake

Post by whoadog » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:50 pm

I live in Emporia and can get feral pigeons for $2 each if you are willing to come to Emporia. I also have relatives in the Wichita area that come up fairly regularly and I can send some back with them if you are interested. You can email me at whoadog@hotmail.com if you would like. I'm planning on re-setting traps tomorrow and should have 5-10 extra birds a week.

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Big bloc
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Re: My Mistake

Post by Big bloc » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:17 am

Check out this link. I have been using state park land for my training. I know you don't live to far from Cheney lake tons of land. Good luck
http://www.kdwpt.state.ks.us/news/Servi ... g-Training
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Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
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Re: My Mistake

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:52 am

You need to launch those birds as soon as the dog shows any sign of catching scent. Launch the bird and nick the dog at the same time. After a couple of times your dog will start to stand off of those birds. Don't use your voice, it doesn't mean squat when that dog's on birds.

This must all be done on a cross wind.

Doug

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Re: My Mistake

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:24 am

I don't use check-cords or e-collars and I do not teach a "whoa" command. Wild birds can do most of your training for you ....if you can get your dog out among them frequently enough.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: My Mistake

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:26 am

DonF wrote:Probably take a bit longer as she's learned she can pull that and get away with it. Lose the quail and get some pigeon's. Those quail might just plop back down where she can get them for sure. When a pigeon is popped, it fly's off and set's in a tree or just goes home. Bring th3e dog cross wind and the moment she makes game pop the bird, don't let her get set. Shouldn't take to long and she'll point before you can pop the bird. Do not talk to her at all. Make a circle around her and watch her intently. She so much as cast's a glance at you, pop the bird. You need to teach her that her movement
Kansas wrote:I have a remote bird launcher, tried that and she still wanted to get her nose right up against the launcher. She got close enough to the launcher to look at it then started barking. So I lead her away, I think I am better off putting birds asleep.
is moving the bird.

Your miss use, please don't be offended, of the launcher is obvious when you stated that she get's her nose right up to the launcher. There's only one way that can happen and that is if you don't pop the bird soon enough. Again please don't be offended, but you taught her to do what she's doing. Make believe that that bird in the launcher is a wild bird. Ever seen many wild birds allow a dog to get that close? I haven't. Don't think like a trainer, think like a wild bird.
+1. Most V's are pretty soft and I don't have hardly any experience with them. However. If that dog still doesn't stop when you pop the bird, pick her up and shake her a bit commanding WHOA and put her back at first scent. Now, I don't do this a lot, because in a dog that is not really birds, it can cause blinking problems in a hurry.

But to many dogs, chasing a bird is far more fun than pointing a bird. For those dog's you have to pressure them a little.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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