Trouble with "here"

Sleepy trout · Post by **Sleepy trout** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:39 pm

I have a question about training my new GSP pup to "here".

He is five months old and is starting to exercise a bit of independence. He will mostly "here" indoors, and sometimes, outside in yard. I enforce every command....meaning I will go get him immediately and chastise gently if needed. Usually, after the chastisement there are no problems for rest of training session....which I limit to 10-15 min.

I keep a check cord on him in yard and will command "here", followed by a few light pops if needed to get him to respond. I will also drop check cord and walk away from him, and turn on him and command "here" when he is close enough that he can't stop on the run when he is catching up to me. I started inside with treats and quickly transitioned to check cord.

We have been working on this with limited success for about three weeks now. I have worked hard to make this fun for pup. It just seems that he should be getting more consistent at this point.

Is this normal at this age, and what suggestions do any of you have?

Ghosted3 · Post by **Ghosted3** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:52 pm

How long did you do the treat training and how consistent was the pup with that?

Corry

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:36 am

He has to understand that you are in charge and that can't be messed with. I used a prong collar on my dog, a little older than your pup to get him to understand what I say goes. I met with some retriever guys and they said that I had the problem that he didn't care what I wanted him to do. They introduced the prong collar to me and how to work with sit to get him to understand what I was asking for and now! You command sit, if he doesn't sit promptly, you steadily put upward pressure on the dog until he sits. This should be done after they understand the command first, which it sounds like your dog understands it, he's just flipping you the bird and doing what he wants, when he wants.

I would also keep him on the check cord. I think you just need to reinforce that when you command, it means now and not ten minutes from now.

If you have him on the check cord, you shouldn't have to go get him, use the cord to pull him in soon after the command if he doesn't move. He may be understanding 'here' as 'well, if I stay in this spot long enough, he will come get me and drag me in, I think that's what this command means'. You want him to move for the 'here' command, you don't want to go anywhere.

Big bloc · Post by **Big bloc** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:36 am

Gooseman07 wrote:He has to understand that you are in charge and that can't be messed with. I used a prong collar on my dog, a little older than your pup to get him to understand what I say goes. I met with some retriever guys and they said that I had the problem that he didn't care what I wanted him to do. They introduced the prong collar to me and how to work with sit to get him to understand what I was asking for and now! You command sit, if he doesn't sit promptly, you steadily put upward pressure on the dog until he sits. This should be done after they understand the command first, which it sounds like your dog understands it, he's just flipping you the bird and doing what he wants, when he wants.

I would also keep him on the check cord. I think you just need to reinforce that when you command, it means now and not ten minutes from now.

If you have him on the check cord, you shouldn't have to go get him, use the cord to pull him in soon after the command if he doesn't move. He may be understanding 'here' as 'well, if I stay in this spot long enough, he will come get me and drag me in, I think that's what this command means'. You want him to move for the 'here' command, you don't want to go anywhere.

+1 same here. I have a 11 month EP and has never been off CC yet out in the yard or field. She knows come here and that means now!

Sleepy trout · Post by **Sleepy trout** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:26 am

Thanks all! This is exactly the kind of advice I am looking for.

When transitioning to the check cord, the treat method took one week, and he was spot on every single time. He was crazy about them. I just didn't want him to expect food every time he came to me on command as I won't always have food in my pocket.

I have used a choke collar some with the check collar. Perhaps I will try a few more weeks with that.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:44 pm

At your pups age, he's still young and teaching a solid recall is mostly about the tone of your voice, a happy and inviting tone to come to you and the praise and treat for now he will get when he returns to you. When you chastise him during any training session at this age you run the risk of making the command your working on to be a negative instead of a positive.

I would use treats for a while longer but change it up and not give the treat every time. Make it so he never knows when he is going to get the treat. It helps a lot tto praise your pup verbally while the dog is coming to you... GOOD BOY repeated several time and then lots of petting when he gets to you. The treat comes after the praise him. The pup needs to understand that he is working for PRAISE rather than the treat. When the treat goes away for ever you will still have the praise he has learned to work for.

At 5 months old its my opinion not to use a prong collar just yet. If you can get him to work well on the slip collar that is fine for now. 100% use of the check cord keeps him from making a mistake and not coming to you when called. Also when you call him HERE only say the command 1 time. Don't get in the habit of repeating the command. If he doesn't start moving towards you with in 1 second of the command he needs a correction, pop of the collar. Remember to verbally praise home GOOD BOY the moment he starts moving forward. Keep your training FUN, FIRM, & FAIR.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:25 pm

The trouble with here is, we are all here because we are not all there! Consider what the motivation of the dog is. Would the dog rather have a treat or run free. Would the dog rather hunt for birds or come to you. If you call the dog to you and end the session why would the dog come to you the next time. You have to make coming to you as rewarding as possible. If you are training with food and the dog sees the food present will the dog be likely to be motivated to recall if the food is not present the next time. Keep the food hidden at all times and only reach into your pocket after the behavior you want is exhibited. Once the dog is exhibiting the behavior limit the treats as the prospect of a treat is more powerful than the actual treat. Only give the treat occasionally at that point , but plenty of praise as much as possible . Stay away from any correction until the behavior is a known behavior, this means a positive response 80% of the time. Keep in mind that dogs do not generalize well. This means a behavior taught in the house will not be understood in the yard because dogs learn by association and the cues given in the house are different then the yard. Keep all your cues consistent verbal as well as visual and move slowly to make sure the dog understands before assuming the dog is blowing you off. There is no reason to use any correction if you train properly and once the behavior is known overlay with the e-collar. When training make sure the dog is hungry, even skip a meal, this will keep the dog more motivated to perform the behavior if it is in the dogs best interest. Finally when you are training with birds the dogs greatest motivator recall the dog and have a bird planted near you or throw a bird so the dog will associate coming to you with birds. Does it make sense to have the dog associate you with the correction while it is learning a new behavior, you want the dog to perform with style and motivation?

Sleepy trout · Post by **Sleepy trout** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:29 pm

Awesome responses! I definitely asked in the right place!!

Thank you to all !!!!

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:26 pm

Remember as you train that the dog will associate your praise or punishment with the activity immediately preceding the reward/punishment. In other words, if you chastise once your dog is under your immediate control, he will associate the punishment with being under your immediate control and not with his not recalling as he should. This is an incredibly important distinction.

MikeB said " a solid recall is mostly about the tone of your voice". I couldn't agree more. Not only can you "reward" with your voice, you can punish as well. Try calling your dog and if he doesn't turn and start for you immediately, lower the tone of your voice and scold him. If he turns and starts to recall, immediately use a higher pitch tone and praise. If he stops, lower your voice and scold. Jekyell and Hyde is who you need to be with your voice. As his behavior goes back and forth, so should your tone. Once again, never, ever, chastise a dog for not recalling when he is already in your grasp. In his mind, that is punishment for doing what you asked.

Sleepy trout · Post by **Sleepy trout** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:55 pm

I have started applying the principles and tips that each one of you have recommended. I can already see a huge difference in his response!

Thanks to each one of you for your valuable advice!!!

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:17 pm

Speaking of Jekyell and Hyde, has anyone read this book.

Jelly Bean versus Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde

http://www.amazon.com/Jelly-Bean-versus ... 0960129251

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:22 am

Using the tone of your voice as a reinforcer for behavior would rely on the dog associating your voice with punishment or reward . It's not that the dog understands the tone the dog associates the tone with imminent punishment or reward. When the dog realizes that the punishment is not possible without the recall it will learn to avoid the recall to avoid the punishment. While notification before correction is very effective it must be followed by timely correction or reward to be understood by the dog to correlate with the behavior. using an e collar at this point is not helpful as the behavior has not been taught yet. The short answer here is never use a command for a behavior you suspect the dog will not respond to positively without the ability to correct for non compliance. Using the dogs motivation to please itself to create a mechanism for compliance allows you to work with the dogs nature instead of against it.

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