Gun Dog Forum

Sometime last season I made the decision, to wash out one of my GSPs. Since then, he has been in the house makeing himself useful as my 10mo daughters jungle gym.

I washed rooster out because he didn't have the range I was looking for. My fault. after having labs for a while I was terrified to let him get out of sight. Also as a rookie mistake I let him catch a bunch of junk birds.

Long story short I took him out with my young FT prospect and my EP/GSP and it turns out that rooster has some wheels (like 300yds+)..... so he might get put back in the hunting line up.

Now for my bigger issue. rooster will point birds and hold them right up till I get there then tries to grab em. i do have wild birds available. is it likely that if I keep running him on wild birds they will teach him to stop lunging in and chasing? Or sould I go with the CC and ecollar and use the launcher and pigeons?

Im just looking for steady to shot from him.

Jim

For steadying I like to get them whoa broke. Then I put them on a barrel and make them stand up there. Then while he is whoa'ed on the barrel I will take some pigeons, usuallay tied on a string and fly them around the dog. If he lunges kick the barrel out fom under him and hang him for just a second. Tell him whoa and put him back on the barrel. It make take time, but do not let him off the barrel until you release him. Sometimes real hard dogs may need a e collar around the flank so you stimulate him as soon as you kick the barrel ( It really is best if you have a partner help you fly the birds) this is only for extreme cases when you have a really stubborn dog. Make sure you praise him and style him back up often this is alot of pressure. When you have the dog where you can fly the birds all around him, even hit him on his side with the birds or right over his head you are doin something. I like to get the where I can put birds on thier back and between thier legs and they never flinch. When there are doing that perfect and I can trust they won't lunge and or move I will move to the ground. Once there I will repeat what I did on the barrel on the ground. When you get a dog finished there they are well on there way to being steady. You can then go back to puting them on birds and finishing the polish stuff.

Good for you, jimbo - you may have found a diamond in the rough there.

I don't disagree with codym's post.

I know of many folks who work on stop to flush (and shot) as a means of staunching up the dog on point, too.

articles:

http://4imgs.com/1028/pdf/Equalizer.pdf

http://dobbsdogs.com/library/pointing/pdj04.html

http://treadsandtracks.blogspot.com/201 ... ching.html

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=36551

Good luck!

I guess I should have said Rooster is about 90% whoa broke. My issue is that he thinks he knows that he can catch his birds so he has a tendancy to crowd them and then tries to lunge in for the catch as I pass him to flush.

I guess my question is this.... Rooster knows his job. He has alot of natural talent, and a pretty good nose. However he has learned he can catch birds. Should I give him a season on the ground by himself running wild birds, to learn he cant catch them? Or should I put him on birds with a launcher and send them up anytime he rolls his eyes?

Heck he is only 3yo.

I guess the same old Nurture or nature debate?

I just looked through the videos, and I guess it makes sence that this is more of a stop to flush issue.

Thanks
Jim

Jim, I can't explain why, but often times getting a dog staunch on stop to flush translates to staunch on point too. My guess is that the dog knows a pointed bird could fly, and knows he is to stay put if it does. One advantage to STF is that any pressure you are using is on flying birds, not scented birds, so you are less likely to cause problems...

Others should chime in here - DonF, Ray, Charlie, etc. - hopefully they'll be along...

Oh - here's an article on crowding birds:

http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=14

In the Huntsmith sequence, they have the dog 100% whoa broke on the whoa post, and the next step in the sequence is to "take away the chase" - i.e., to train stop-to-flush. In their last DVD, Ronnie Smith just nags a dog with very light e-collar nicks when the dog chases a launched bird. Gradually over many reps, the dog chases less and less until he will stand and watch when the bird is launched.

I agree mostly AZ, I do like to take the chase out with no scent on the ground tho....By that i mean no launchers, I drop the birds as if I had walked them up after whoa'ing the dog. Then super lightly nick the dog tap tap tap on the chase , saying NOTHING !!!!. By not having scent on the ground you have eliminated a chance of a wrong association with pointing.

This has the dual effect of teaching the dog that sometimes you know something they don't, like where a bird is, which will cause them to trust you more, on whoa. plus no bad association with pointing.

I've learned that doing it this way most dogs pick up the idea of STF pretty quick.....

In the past my GSP has tried to beat me to the bird(s). Like you said, he would hold point nicely, then as I walk into flush he would take a step or even lunge toward the covey and rip them.

In my experience, this was helped by a few items:
1. Never, ever fire a shot at birds that he tries to beat you to or tries to catch, let him watch the birds fly away, he'll learn he cannot catch them. Its important to not reward him with a shot bird on the birds that he rips. Learn to read your pup, the second he thinks about moving a muscle toward those birds, start backing up away from the dog and the birds. Further, be certain you are not walking right by the dog on point, any dog might be pulled in to the pointed bird if one walks right by the dog. Instead circle out around the dog to head in for the flush. You may walk out, around and then right at the dog's nose, depending on the situation.

2. I was helped by a trainer on here by putting my dog on pigeons in traps/launchers. As soon as my dog caught scent the bird was popped, this really reinforced that he would never catch a bird. After a few sessions, he started locking up nice and tight. Also, as you run Rooster on lots of wild birds I think he'll figure it out and will start holding better. Well, at least, that was what my GSP began doing.

You know, no dog is perfect, our dogs get rusty in the off season. IMHO this sort of thing may happen a lot, especially if a dog is not broke.

Birddog1968 has given you an excellent way to start with your three year old dog. Doing the yardwork thing can't hurt and can only help, but your dog is of an age where it can handle some pressure. It has had experiences that may well need some pressure to "un-learn".

I agree with training this dog with pigeons and an e-collar on the neckl set at a low setting and using nicks when the dog does not stop to flush. I also think that the same regimen of nicks later on, with wild birds, with the collar on the belly instead of the neck and on the LOWEST stim level, would help to make the dog understand what you want, fairly quickly.

Sounds very promising actually. Good luck.

RayG

I also would pop launchers on the dog.........but after i stop to flush as mentioned above
.

thanks guys. 68,

I had thought back to that artile you pointed me to at one point and though that was what I might do. I can say ol rooster hasn't cought a bird since he was about 16mo running for his JH, and I would prefer that he not catch another, but he is smart and aims to please so I will see what I can come up with. thanks guys

Jim

codym wrote:For steadying I like to get them whoa broke. Then I put them on a barrel and make them stand up there. Then while he is whoa'ed on the barrel I will take some pigeons, usuallay tied on a string and fly them around the dog. If he lunges kick the barrel out fom under him and hang him for just a second. Tell him whoa and put him back on the barrel. It make take time, but do not let him off the barrel until you release him. Sometimes real hard dogs may need a e collar around the flank so you stimulate him as soon as you kick the barrel ( It really is best if you have a partner help you fly the birds) this is only for extreme cases when you have a really stubborn dog. Make sure you praise him and style him back up often this is alot of pressure. When you have the dog where you can fly the birds all around him, even hit him on his side with the birds or right over his head you are doin something. I like to get the where I can put birds on thier back and between thier legs and they never flinch. When there are doing that perfect and I can trust they won't lunge and or move I will move to the ground. Once there I will repeat what I did on the barrel on the ground. When you get a dog finished there they are well on there way to being steady. You can then go back to puting them on birds and finishing the polish stuff.

I met with Cody last week to see his High Finance son he had for sale. We ran him near.my house and that dog was steady and then some. I did have plenty of time to walk back to my truck get my gun and some shells, got back and the dog still hadn't moved a muscle. Steady through the flush and delayed shot I took. He did a nice job on this dog. Actually a little too nice of a job for me to get him much lower on his price. I had not planned on shooting the first bird out but also I didn't expect this dog to be that well broke.

gotpointers wrote:

codym wrote:For steadying I like to get them whoa broke. Then I put them on a barrel and make them stand up there. Then while he is whoa'ed on the barrel I will take some pigeons, usuallay tied on a string and fly them around the dog. If he lunges kick the barrel out fom under him and hang him for just a second. Tell him whoa and put him back on the barrel. It make take time, but do not let him off the barrel until you release him. Sometimes real hard dogs may need a e collar around the flank so you stimulate him as soon as you kick the barrel ( It really is best if you have a partner help you fly the birds) this is only for extreme cases when you have a really stubborn dog. Make sure you praise him and style him back up often this is alot of pressure. When you have the dog where you can fly the birds all around him, even hit him on his side with the birds or right over his head you are doin something. I like to get the where I can put birds on thier back and between thier legs and they never flinch. When there are doing that perfect and I can trust they won't lunge and or move I will move to the ground. Once there I will repeat what I did on the barrel on the ground. When you get a dog finished there they are well on there way to being steady. You can then go back to puting them on birds and finishing the polish stuff.

I met with Cody last week to see his High Finance son he had for sale. We ran him near.my house and that dog was steady and then some. I did have plenty of time to walk back to my truck get my gun and some shells, got back and the dog still hadn't moved a muscle. Steady through the flush and delayed shot I took. He did a nice job on this dog. Actually a little too nice of a job for me to get him much lower on his price. I had not planned on shooting the first bird out but also I didn't expect this dog to be that well broke.

Wow. That's proof of the pudding, right there. Sounds like a dog that is ready to hunt!

I met with Cody last week to see his High Finance son he had for sale. We ran him near.my house and that dog was steady and then some. I did have plenty of time to walk back to my truck get my gun and some shells, got back and the dog still hadn't moved a muscle. Steady through the flush and delayed shot I took. He did a nice job on this dog. Actually a little too nice of a job for me to get him much lower on his price. I had not planned on shooting the first bird out but also I didn't expect this dog to be that well broke.[/quote]

I'd love to see some photos of the dog. Sounds great to me.

Christopher wrote:I met with Cody last week to see his High Finance son he had for sale. We ran him near.my house and that dog was steady and then some. I did have plenty of time to walk back to my truck get my gun and some shells, got back and the dog still hadn't moved a muscle. Steady through the flush and delayed shot I took. He did a nice job on this dog. Actually a little too nice of a job for me to get him much lower on his price. I had not planned on shooting the first bird out but also I didn't expect this dog to be that well broke.

I'd love to see some photos of the dog. Sounds great to me.[/quote]

My phones putting the pictures to a jpeg format which is not getting accepted . I posted off the same phone the week before but now it won't work. So if anyone has tips.

Ray and '68 bot had good posts IMO. You are fortunate to have wild birds available and I would continue to work on wild birds, but would also train under controlled conditions, as suggested.

Charlie

A pro I know got a GSP that no one wanted 2 years ago. Last month (maybe this month also, I don't get GSP chronicle) that dog was ranked #1 open gun dog in the country. He needs 1 point to finish his FC. The moral of the story? Don't be quick to give up on a dog. They might come around and surprise you.

brad27 wrote:A pro I know got a GSP that no one wanted 2 years ago. Last month (maybe this month also, I don't get GSP chronicle) that dog was ranked #1 open gun dog in the country. He needs 1 point to finish his FC. The moral of the story? Don't be quick to give up on a dog. They might come around and surprise you.

What are you confused about? You know the dog.

ultracarry wrote:

brad27 wrote:A pro I know got a GSP that no one wanted 2 years ago. Last month (maybe this month also, I don't get GSP chronicle) that dog was ranked #1 open gun dog in the country. He needs 1 point to finish his FC. The moral of the story? Don't be quick to give up on a dog. They might come around and surprise you.

LMAO!!!!