Force Fetch - dog drops dummy on heel

irondugan · Post by **irondugan** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:41 pm

My two year old Brit is whoa broke, obedient, and loves to hunt - but he's only a so so retriever. He will retrieve quail and chukar to hand (most of the time), but he balks at dove, pheasant, and ducks. I wanted to make him a more reliable retriever and versatile hunting dog, so I decided to try a force fetch program last month. Being my first bird dog and realizing that every dog learns differently, I researched several different force fetch methods, including NAVHDA, Tom Dokken, Robert Milner, and John and Amy Dahl. I settled with Tom Dokken's method because the pressure on/off concept seemed the most straight forward. We've been at it for about 6 weeks and here are the steps I've completed successful with my pup to date on a training table:

1) Dog accepts gloved hand
2) Leave gloved hand in mouth for extended period of time and introduce "hold" command
3) Pinch jowls until dog opens mouth then introduce gloved hand and have dog "hold" for variable time
4) Ear pinch until dog opens mouth then introduce gloved hand and have dog "hold" for variable time
5) Begin moving hand slowly away while using ear pinch and have dog "hold" for variable time
6) Substitute dowel for hand and repeat 4-5 with dowel
7) Introduce "Fetch" command

Continue moving dowel down towards table until dog is fetching off of table with "fetch" command and ear pinch

Now here is the problem - when I try to heel my dog along the table he spits the dummy out. I've tried putting him on the ground - same result. I've tried to put my hand under his chin and hold his lower jaw up and heel him on the leash but he only goes a few steps before fighting and spitting the dummy out. I've tried using different dowels - same result. We he drops the dummy I command "no" put the dummy in his mouth and command "hold". I've tried heeling with the ear pinch and he will pick it back up again but he still spits it out again once we start walking. In a stationary position on the table he will hold the dowel for 15 min (probably longer but I haven't pushed it beyond this).....We've been stuck on this step for about two weeks now.

I think the problem here is two-fold 1) at some point I've made a mistake and trained the dog to associate hold with standing still or vice versa heel with drop 2) my dog is very stubborn and doesn't like to hold the object in his mouth and run. I've noticed when we hunt and he starts panting heavily his retrieving becomes less and less reliable. Any advice would be much appreciated. Please let me know if I need to clarify any of the steps above. Thanks in advance.

Best,
IronDugan

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:55 pm

On a short note force fetch is all about exact timing. You have to be very consistent with your pressure. The second you see the buck coming out of his mouth you need to be applying pressure. Always have a buck in your back pocket because if it hits the ground and you have to let off the pressure you have lost already. Also he should be walking up and down the table with the buck before you go to fetch. Hope this helps. Maybe disect what i said and we will go from there

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:01 pm

Also when he takes those few steps and spits it out, go ahead and over lay the give( or whatever u use) right before and accept the buck. And yes, they do think hold means don't move also, lol. You cant ask for him to walk the whole table starting out. Step today maybe step tomorrow. After the first few, start jazzing him up a little to ease him. Just to cover myself, these are my opinions and what works very well for me may not for someone else.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:02 pm

once you got him picking up off the table did you ever stretch that out till he was going 5 ft- 10ft- length of the table and returning?

You need to throw him a curveball and break the little pattern he's in. If you haven't been sending him down the table I would try that. I've never asked the dog to walk at heel holding a bumper, always pick up and return to heel, even in walking fetch....walk-fetch-return to heal and give. So I am a little at a loss,....but he's in a pattern of behavior and you need to change it up on him. I'm not done on the table until they are retrieving multiples the length of the table on bucks and birds.....

Maybe even try healing him and taking a side step and making him turn 90 degrees and taking a step to remain at heel (adjust)....then begin to lengthen that. or stepping away with him on a sit command and making him come back to you at heel. Just Change the game on him....Have you transferred from buck/bumper to bird on the table yet?

I know the dog should hold until commanded to give, but just out of curiosity why are you wanting him to walk with you at heel with the buck/bumper/bird?

One other note, you can project on to the dog you expect him to drop it by your body language....so keep that in mind, be confident he wont but be quick to correct, sometimes that's a little hard to master, like KD said keep a spare buck in your back pocket,

irondugan · Post by **irondugan** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:32 pm

Kona dawg wrote:On a short note force fetch is all about exact timing. You have to be very consistent with your pressure. The second you see the buck coming out of his mouth you need to be applying pressure. Always have a buck in your back pocket because if it hits the ground and you have to let off the pressure you have lost already. Also he should be walking up and down the table with the buck before you go to fetch. Hope this helps. Maybe disect what i said and we will go from there

Duly noted. I'll keep an additional buck in my pocket and try back stepping and laying off of "fetch" until he is walking up and down the table.

irondugan · Post by **irondugan** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:42 pm

birddog1968 wrote:once you got him picking up off the table did you ever stretch that out till he was going 5 ft- 10ft- length of the table and returning?

No, that's a great idea - I'm going off of a book and pictures, so I'm clearly missing a few things.

You need to throw him a curveball and break the little pattern he's in. If you haven't been sending him down the table I would try that. I've never asked the dog to walk at heel holding a bumper, always pick up and return to heel, even in walking fetch....walk-fetch-return to heal and give. So I am a little at a loss,....

Again, this is a result of going by a book - good advice. I don't necessarily want him to walk at heel with the bumper, I just want him to carry it in his mouth and I'm trying to encourage moving with the bumper in his mouth with the heel command. When I just tug on the leash with no command he fights it.

but he's in a pattern of behavior and you need to change it up on him. I'm not done on the table until they are retrieving multiples the length of the table on bucks and birds.....

And birds? The texts I have been reading suggest taking him through all stages with a bumper/dummy etc... before moving to birds. Again, another good suggestion.

Maybe even try healing him and taking a side step and making him turn 90 degrees and taking a step to remain at heel (adjust)....then begin to lengthen that. or stepping away with him on a sit command and making him come back to you at heel. Just Change the game on him....Have you transferred from buck/bumper to bird on the table yet?

I know the dog should hold until commanded to give, but just out of curiosity why are you wanting him to walk with you at heel with the buck/bumper/bird?

Same as above, I'm just trying to encourage walking with dummy.

One other note, you can project on to the dog you expect him to drop it by your body language....so keep that in mind, be confident he wont but be quick to correct, sometimes that's a little hard to master, like KD said keep a spare buck in your back pocket,

Good advice KD and BD1968!

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:33 am

Just as a note.... most dogs find walking or moving with the buck in the mouth a big step. Most of them try dropping and you have to be ready to deal with it per your training program. Just a regular stage and a time for you dog to learn.

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:29 am

Also just on a side note, reach towards his head under his jaw, towards his ears without taking the buck. Alot of time dogs anticipate when they see your hand coming in that is there cue to drop. You only want them to drop on your command. Example, your dog just ran a cripple down after 20 minutes of tracking and chasing finally to catch. Only then do you start reaching and he releases before you are ready. Game on again!

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:36 am

Just wait to you go to the ground. "Fetch? Whats that mean?" Lol

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:19 am

I could have probably worded my post alot better... it was late , thats my fault.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:23 am

Understand what you are teaching the dog in force fetch. The behavior you are training is fetch but you can not shape that behavior without the dog learning to avoid pressure. If you allow the dog to succeed in non compliance without pressure you are losing the battle. Never let the dog beat you. The dog is not thinking how to beat you , he only perceived it as safe or dangerous to let go of the dowel. Dogs have no sense of logic , they just read the cues we give them.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:47 pm

Stop all other forms of training and especially hunting until FF is COMPLETE. take a step back and continue to work on the command. Does he know what "heel" means? If he's not strong on heel, you are teaching something that you shouldn't be trying to teach right now. If he has a good recall, go in front and call him to you. This is the picture that he needs to start associating with at this point.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:53 pm

It seems you got a lot of good advice here. Another thing I could add is the hickox video is easy to follow and if you need to you can just watch each step as you do them. make sure you are getting the video with force retrieve on it i am not sure if his new beginnings video has force retrieve on it. I lent mine out and could not remember which one or if both had it.

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:40 pm

My favorite is an old one by jim and phyllis dobbs(i think). It is 2 seperate videos. 1 is hold and the other is force because they are 2 different commands. Jim is real calm, thorough, and slow. Plus the dogs arent already broke like alot of videos. I could loan them to you, you pay to ship if i can locate them, lol

irondugan · Post by **irondugan** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:51 pm

birddog1968 wrote:I could have probably worded my post alot better... it was late , thats my fault.

So did you intend to say that I should introduce frozen birds on the table and have him holding/fetching those reliably on the table before going the ground?

irondugan · Post by **irondugan** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:53 pm

4dabirds wrote:It seems you got a lot of good advice here. Another thing I could add is the hickox video is easy to follow and if you need to you can just watch each step as you do them. make sure you are getting the video with force retrieve on it i am not sure if his new beginnings video has force retrieve on it. I lent mine out and could not remember which one or if both had it.

Could you be more specific about the video title?

irondugan · Post by **irondugan** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:56 pm

Kona dawg wrote:My favorite is an old one by jim and phyllis dobbs(i think). It is 2 seperate videos. 1 is hold and the other is force because they are 2 different commands. Jim is real calm, thorough, and slow. Plus the dogs arent already broke like alot of videos. I could loan them to you, you pay to ship if i can locate them, lol

Could you be more specific about the video title?

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:03 pm

It is "hold" and "fetch". That's all. No fancy titles and nothing but force breaking( or conditioned retrieve). 2 separate videos

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:13 pm

irondugan wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:I could have probably worded my post alot better... it was late , thats my fault.
So did you intend to say that I should introduce frozen birds on the table and have him holding/fetching those reliably on the table before going the ground?

Yes I get them doing everything on the table, from hold to fetch to stretching it out and multiple bucks or bumpers and building speed , then do again with birds (I personally just use
fresh killed birds). Once i have them done on the table (with a birddog) i just go straight to the field and shoot some birds. Most dogs are pretty much DONE on the table, some may need
some more work on the ground.....Having the dog come thru it with his tail up and happy is golden its easy to build speed with a happy camper. Attaboys go a long way....

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:28 am

Kona dawg wrote:It is "hold" and "fetch". That's all. No fancy titles and nothing but force breaking( or conditioned retrieve). 2 separate videos

Yep. Believe this is the one: http://www.gundogsupply.com/tritpariiiho.html

I got it the other day, and agree it is very straightforward. Have heard the same from others...

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:44 am

One of the best parts of the videos is that they have an audio set up that sounds everytime stimulation is applied and when he lets off. As I stated before, timing is everything and this allows for the viewer to know exactly when stimulation is being applied.

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