e collar and birds

mxdad777 · Post by **mxdad777** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:56 pm

My 20 month old pointing lab is collar conditioned and has lots of drive. I shot over 100 birds over her last year both chukar and pheasant and by the end of the season she was rock solid. The last few times I have had here out this year (including today) she is pointing, but then wanting to creep on some birds. She knows the whoa command but I'll be the first to admit she isn't 100% whoa broke. My question is.....Is it ok to use the e-collar for correction when she starts to creep while on point, or is that a definite no. I have heard that you never use an e-collar when a dog is engaged with a bird, but I've also heard that once a dog is collar conditioned you can use it any time. Experts, I need some guidance.

Will · Post by **Will** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:22 pm

No expert...however...my opinion is that only if she is whoa broke, is it appropriate to correct or enforce the broken command with the e-collar.

If you're shooting birds for her that she's producing by creeping, then you're reinforcing this as being okay.

Personally, I'd rather not whoa my dogs on birds. Perhaps putting her on some launchers or letting some wild birds "train" her that she can't move once she establishes point unless released by her handler? It all depends on your expectations from her I guess.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:29 pm

Do not do it. If the dog is not trained on the command as it relates to the bird you risk the dog associating the e-collar with the bird. Each and every situation is different to the dog. The dog will not understand the e=collar as it relates to the situation if it has not been trained on that command in that situation. Use a check-cord on the dog first to get the dog to understand what it is you expect. When the dog is responding positively to the command 8 out of ten times and is proofed on birds , with out the cord ,then you can expect the dog to understand that the correction is for the non compliance of the whoa command .

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:57 pm

I agree that your dog needs to understand the commands. My GSP is 98% whoa broke and I use the e collar on him when he creeps. I have not shot a bird for him in a long time when he creeps but he still does it occasionally. I feel a soft, gentle reminder to the dog from the collar in this situation saying, hey, I'm still here and you need to stop moving, now! Is an okay thing to do. I'm no expert on the matter and have only trained one versatile dog but he is coming along very nicely.

mxdad777 · Post by **mxdad777** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:46 pm

Yeah, I would say that my dog is 95% whoa broke. During yard work if I have her on whoa and then have my son try and get her excited (throw her favorite ball etc) she is steady 98% of the time. If she takes a step I give her a mild correction with the collar and she stops. Repeat the process and she is 100%. However, when she is in the field and amped up on birds, she is only about 90% whoa broke. I haven't tried using a clip wing in the yard, maybe that should be my next move. Would it be ok to use the collar with a clip wing? Oh, to back up a bit...I used the check cord prior to overlaying the collar when I was teaching the whoa command. Just so you know, my end result isn't to have a dog that I compete with, but rather a great hunting dog and great family pet. As of right now she is a great family pet and a good hunting dog. On the hunting side I would like to get from good to great. Just looking for the correct way to achieve this and I appreciate all the feed back.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:03 am

Since this is a lab we are talking about ,is it possible that the labs retrieve instinct is strong enough to cause it to move forward in anticipation of a retrieve on fresh shot game ? I don't know what your dog does or is allowed to do following a successful shot but if the dog is accustomed to always running in for shot game, could it be anticipating this ?

Just a thought and probably a wrong one !

Bill T.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:05 pm

Some times when the dog creeps it may be that it is trying to get a better hold on where the scent is coming from. Some times it is the dog trying to visually see the bird. Some times it is the dog just roading in on the bird to flush it. In any case the dog perceives its movement as beneficial to the dog , if it did not, it would not do it. By allowing the dog to move and flush the bird , the dogs movement caused the bird to flush. The dog may see this as rewarding . So by using a correction you have only temporarily extinguished this behavior because you have not dealt with the root of the problem in the first place. The dog is going to always take a step because the motivation is the bird and the correction needs to correlate with the motivation. Big motivation needs big correction. Then the question is , do you really want to correct a dog in the presence of a bird ? Go back to the root of the problem , the movement. Make the behavior of pointing and standing still what produces the bird. Using launchers bring the dog in with out scent to the bird ,command whoa when the dog stops launch a bird. This establishes in the dogs mind that whoa produces the bird. After several repetitions with success ,bring the dog in cross wind to the bird and when the dog stops launch a bird. This will establish in the dogs mind his point produced the bird. Once the dog is successful at this add multiple launchers. When the dog establishes point launch a second bird before the dog has moved while watching the first bird , keeping the dogs attention on the birds. As the drill progresses over several sessions add as many launchers as you can and vary the timing of the birds to keep the dog off guard and expecting another bird. The dog will stay solid because his attention is focused on seeing the next bird and never knowing when the exercise ends.

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