pointing

labman626 · Post by **labman626** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:41 pm

How can I get my pup to start pointing? He will Chase birds like crazy but he will not point.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:41 pm

How old is the pup? Does he slow down to a creep when he catches scent?
Or is he just running around crazy busting birds up?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:25 am

Game birds?

If so you will need more help than we can give you here.

labman626 · Post by **labman626** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:44 am

He is just running busting birds he is about 7 months old. These are birds I set out trying to work him into the scent so that he will smell it and hopefully slow down and try to creep up on it and eventually point.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:55 am

Check cord.'

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:00 am

Your handle says "labman". Is the dog a Lab or some other flushing breed?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:09 am

I jusr have to ask, do those that know nothing about boats, go on sailing sites and ask how to raise the sail or tack the boat?

I am amazed that people think dog training is so easy that they can learn to do it on the internet. And then some respond, thinking they can teach all one needs to know.

I am happy to help someone with a specific question if they understand the basics, but there have been 100's of books and videos on dog training that you cannot duplicate without writing another book.

Do surgeons get trained on a forum?

I will no longer respond to these type posts other than to suggest they attend a seminar.

They have to at least speak the language, before we can give any real help. And have you noticed most post one or two times, and not heard from again. It is nonsense.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:15 am

Breed ?
Age of dog ?
What Training Program are you following ?

.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:17 am

Buy a pointer :roll:

labman626 · Post by **labman626** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:27 am

It is a pointer. I thought the purpose of a forum was to ask questions to find possible solutions from others that have had similar training problems. I have several books and I have done what they have suggested still not getting results. That is why I asked the question here. Just an honest question.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:35 am

topher40 wrote:Buy a pointer :roll:

See --- It's not just Pointing Labs that don't point right out of the box :roll:

.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:03 am

labman626 wrote:It is a pointer. I thought the purpose of a forum was to ask questions to find possible solutions from others that have had similar training problems. I have several books and I have done what they have suggested still not getting results. That is why I asked the question here. Just an honest question.

That's exactly the point. Don't let some one having a bad day rain on your parade. I know for a fact that there are individuals that have found answers to questions like yours on this very site.

To your problem: Pointers can be very slow developing. My grandfather's last dog was trained only on wild birds with nothing but patience. Grandpa checked oil leases for a living and took the dog with him where ever he went every season of the year. Any time he saw a covey he dumped Petey out and let him chase. The dog did not point any of the literally hundreds of birds he chased until he was four years old. When he finally pointed, Grandpa walked out and shot one for him. That was all it took and he became one of the best dogs I ever had the privilege to hunt behind. So, what's the point of the story? Be patient and under no circumstances do you shoot until the dog handles his birds the way you want him to. Right now his drive is overpowering his brain function. You should also be very diligent with the yard work so he starts to understand discipline and control in the field. If you would like to send me a pm, I can give you another solution that I would rather not discuss on the open forum.

jimssetters · Post by **jimssetters** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:22 am

I jusr have to ask, do those that know nothing about boats, go on sailing sites and ask how to raise the sail or tack the boat?

I am amazed that people think dog training is so easy that they can learn to do it on the internet. And then some respond, thinking they can teach all one needs to know.

I am happy to help someone with a specific question if they understand the basics, but there have been 100's of books and videos on dog training that you cannot duplicate without writing another book.

Do surgeons get trained on a forum?

I will no longer respond to these type posts other than to suggest they attend a seminar.

They have to at least speak the language, before we can give any real help. And have you noticed most post one or two times, and not heard from again. It is nonsense.

IMO You are so right, I dont understand the nerve of some people coming to this site and trying to get dog training information. If this sounds like sarcasm well it is.
Not all dogs are created equal and not all dogs are going to be the best hunting dog. I am NOT telling you to give up. Check cords are great and used properly are one of the greatest tools ever. Lead your dog across the bird scent and as soon as you see he has the scent use your cc to stop him. Dogs slso need they chase to develope that prey drive that carries them through training. Some are slower than others. There are a lot of good people on here that will give you great you info and others that wont. You have to decide what is best for you and your dog. Good luck and happy hunting.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:50 am

Let him grow up a bit and if the dog doesnt start pointing you arent going to teach the dog. Scratch it and start over.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:54 am

I am not having a bad day, particularly, just speaking the truth. If you guys think you can tell a guy how to get a dog to point in a 100 word post, you are kidding yourselves, it may make you feel better, but he needs so much more. I really think it is the blind thinking they are so good they can lead the blind. He needs to reread the books and review the videos, or better attend a seminar, at least find a trainer group.

Unless you will write a book on here that he will read, you are dellusional.

I will gladly help with specifc problems, but I will not contribute to ruining a dog.

labman626 · Post by **labman626** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:10 pm

Then "Neil" what is the purpose of this forum? Just curious as to how you define this forum.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:27 pm

labman626 wrote:Then "Neil" what is the purpose of this forum? Just curious as to how you define this forum.

"Breed ?
Age of dog ?
What Training Program are you following ?"

And if you could answer questions, we MIGHT be able to be more helpful.

.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:31 pm

labman626 wrote:Then "Neil" what is the purpose of this forum? Just curious as to how you define this forum.

I thought I was clear, if you have a good understanding of basic hunting dog training, I think this forum can help all of us with specific problems by sharing our experiences. Which I would hope consists of more than reading one book and half traing one dog.

Think about how much the op has to learn. How to get a dog to point? If you could answer that in a post, and you can't, he still has another couple hundred things to learn. Most of the attempts to help, like use a check cord, will cause more harm in inexperienced hands than good. Please think about the dogs.

There are many on here that can help fine tune a dog. Teach the advanced subtle technques. But without writing a book, they are deluding themselves and the op.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:36 pm

I understand what you are saying exactly, Neil. The thought crosses my mind off and on too, which is why I often recommend a training programme/ book . training group etc.. However I believe that often we can give a word of advice that can really make a difference for the OP. The challenge is to decide what would be most helpful .( Gone'huntin' is a great example of how a couple paragraphs can make all the difference. His posts have helped me many a time.)

........................................

Sorry to get off topic here , OP
Give us the : breed and age of the dog and I'm sure many would be glad to help.

I used to think that if your pup wasn't pointing ( not sight pointing) by 6 months you had a dud , but I've learned here that many dogs need more opportunities to point than others.

Is the dog getting enough opportunities to exercise/run outside of bird training.? They often need to burn that energy before they can settle down.
Are you using pen raised birds? Often they are housed too close together and their scent is reduced , plus too much human scent when planting can throw off an inexperienced dog.

edited: Didn't see you had named the breed and age . Sorry .

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:52 pm

Neil wrote:I am not having a bad day, particularly, just speaking the truth. If you guys think you can tell a guy how to get a dog to point in a 100 word post, you are kidding yourselves, it may make you feel better, but he needs so much more. I really think it is the blind thinking they are so good they can lead the blind. He needs to reread the books and review the videos, or better attend a seminar, at least find a trainer group.

Unless you will write a book on here that he will read, you are dellusional.

I will gladly help with specifc problems, but I will not contribute to ruining a dog.

Whether you are right or wrong makes little difference. No one asked you to help so if you don't feel comfortable doing it then don't. But do not tell anyone that they can't be helped here by people willing to do it. Sometimes we just need to sit back and let the things pass that you don't feel comfortable with.

Ezzy

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:10 pm

Labman,

Where are you located? You may find that there are guys on here that live close to you. I have found that for me getting a helping hand from a trainer can be the most help. There are plenty of people on this site that can guide you in the right direction. Do not let the few nay sayers chase you off. Welcome to the forum and I hope that we can help make your experience with your pup a good one.

Please let us know your location and we may be able to set you up with someone that can take a look at your pup, and give you a few pointers.

Joe

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:14 pm

Doc, he gave the info
Breed, Pointer
Age, 7mo
Program, ? But he stated that he has various books so it sounds like he followed something.lol

Labman, if I can finely my "Perfect Start" DVD I will send it to you and when your finished send it back so that I can continue sending it to people.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:58 pm

Does it surprise any one, with all the negative responses.This guy has not responded back! Wow ask a question and get torn to threads. This guy needs help not a reprimand for ignorance. Lab man if you need help pm me ill get you in the right direction. Must be something in the air.

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:12 pm

Thats exactly right this is not someone who comes on a site and post twice and leaves this is a person with 44 post to this site, this is a contribution, if you want to run everyone off a site it is entirely possible I have seen it happen.
The dog don't point at 7 months this is nothing new, he will get it sooner or later he's a pup
Fester

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:20 pm

OK. I am sincerely contrite, I am sorry. Honestly.

ibbowhunting · Post by **ibbowhunting** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:49 pm

Neil wrote:OK. I am sincerely contrite, I am sorry. Honestly.

i challange you to think back to the first dog you ever worked with and then answer the question was if you were asking it, could you used a little help back then?
this forum has alot of great people which has help me alot, as a newbie myself(my first pointing dog). i would hate to see someone not ask a question because they were scared people would run them down.BTW i have had people PM me replys to questions i've asked so others wouldnt run down there replys, which help me out and could of help others,

i'm glad your sorry
just trying to give you a prospective from a newbie

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:55 pm

IMO, if the dog doesn't point, it doesn't point....I don't think many here have ever trained a dog to point. That's bred into the dog. It's getting the dog to hold point that's trainable. My guess is the pup will figure it out eventually. Right now it's just having too much fun chasing birds. Has the pup ever caught a bird before?

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:11 pm

DogNewbie wrote:IMO, if the dog doesn't point, it doesn't point....I don't think many here have ever trained a dog to point. That's bred into the dog. It's getting the dog to hold point that's trainable. My guess is the pup will figure it out eventually. Right now it's just having too much fun chasing birds. Has the pup ever caught a bird before?

I agree with this statement but I feel like what you can do is provide an oppertunity for the pup to point
Fester

labman626 · Post by **labman626** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:30 pm

I live in South Carolina. I would more than happy getting together with people to train. I am always looking for help. I have a lab that I trial and I have a pup that I currently bringing along to do the same. I used to quail hunt a good bit when I was younger and I really enjoyed it, but we did have wild birds then. I had a chance to pick this pup up and I did. He is a handful but I think he will make a great bird dog. I just want to make sure I get on the right track. I have been reading Paul Long's book and Maurice Lindley's book. Maurice is about 4 hours north of me. I live in the lower part of the state. If there is anyone on here willing to get together within a driving distance of 2 hours I would be glad to do it. I would really like to borrow that Perfect Start DVD. I heard it was good.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:04 pm

Neil wrote:OK. I am sincerely contrite, I am sorry. Honestly.

It's forgotten.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:19 pm

ibbowhunting wrote:
Neil wrote:OK. I am sincerely contrite, I am sorry. Honestly.
i challange you to think back to the first dog you ever worked with and then answer the question was if you were asking it, could you used a little help back then?
this forum has alot of great people which has help me alot, as a newbie myself(my first pointing dog). i would hate to see someone not ask a question because they were scared people would run them down.BTW i have had people PM me replys to questions i've asked so others wouldnt run down there replys, which help me out and could of help others, i'm glad your sorry
just trying to give you a prospective from a newbie

Hey, I said I was sorry. You are kind of piling on. I can't do much more than say I am sorry. And if you knew my mentor as a 13year old traing my first dog.some 50 years ago you wouldn't ask how I was treated or reacted.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:45 pm

4dabirds wrote:Does it surprise any one, with all the negative responses.This guy has not responded back! Wow ask a question and get torn to threads. This guy needs help not a reprimand for ignorance. Lab man if you need help pm me ill get you in the right direction. Must be something in the air.

If he needs help it would be nice if you can do it here where others can learn. If you are afraid of someone questioning your methods that in it self says something, but thee is no reason why anyone should try to get someone off of the Forum and taking them private for no good reason.

Ezzy

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:20 pm

labman626 wrote:How can I get my pup to start pointing? He will Chase birds like crazy but he will not point.

Nick you are welcome to come up. I would be happy to evaluate your pointer pup, come up and spend the day.

Mo

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:22 pm

Neil wrote:I am not having a bad day, particularly, just speaking the truth. If you guys think you can tell a guy how to get a dog to point in a 100 word post, you are kidding yourselves
DogNewbie wrote:
IMO, if the dog doesn't point, it doesn't point....I don't think many here have ever trained a dog to point. That's bred into the dog.

EGADS GENTLEMEN and lady or two, the gauntlet has been thrown down! I accept your toothy challenge and will respond post-haste with my hundred word book! (and video evidence to support my assertions) I CAN teach a dog to point! And, I CAN give good advice in one hundred words or less! We meet tomorrow on this sporting ground to resolve our dispute, and, to the victor, THE SPOILS!

Hmm, might have overdone it a bit there. But, check in tomorrow once I have my youtubes downloaded.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:30 pm

Maurice wrote:
labman626 wrote:How can I get my pup to start pointing? He will Chase birds like crazy but he will not point.
Nick you are welcome to come up. I would be happy to evaluate your pointer pup, come up and spend the day.

Mo

Labman, I'd take Mo up on his offer.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:44 pm

+1 Take Mo up on his offer!

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:50 pm

brad27 wrote:
Maurice wrote:
labman626 wrote:How can I get my pup to start pointing? He will Chase birds like crazy but he will not point.
Nick you are welcome to come up. I would be happy to evaluate your pointer pup, come up and spend the day.

Mo
Labman, I'd take Mo up on his offer.

+2

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:21 am

Ezzy you of all people should know by now I could care less about what people like you think. I was worried about wether the op would want to respond not you or any one else.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:31 am

Maurice wrote:
labman626 wrote:How can I get my pup to start pointing? He will Chase birds like crazy but he will not point.
Nick you are welcome to come up. I would be happy to evaluate your pointer pup, come up and spend the day.

Mo

That is one of the great things about this site is we span the country. Mo will take good care of you. You will never get more out a book than you will by first hand experience in the field. Good luck to you and your pup.

Joe

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:02 am

Fester wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:IMO, if the dog doesn't point, it doesn't point....I don't think many here have ever trained a dog to point. That's bred into the dog. It's getting the dog to hold point that's trainable. My guess is the pup will figure it out eventually. Right now it's just having too much fun chasing birds. Has the pup ever caught a bird before?
I agree with this statement but I feel like what you can do is provide an oppertunity for the pup to point
Fester

agreed.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:08 am

whoadog wrote:
Neil wrote:I am not having a bad day, particularly, just speaking the truth. If you guys think you can tell a guy how to get a dog to point in a 100 word post, you are kidding yourselves
DogNewbie wrote:
IMO, if the dog doesn't point, it doesn't point....I don't think many here have ever trained a dog to point. That's bred into the dog.
EGADS GENTLEMEN and lady or two, the gauntlet has been thrown down! I accept your toothy challenge and will respond post-haste with my hundred word book! (and video evidence to support my assertions) I CAN teach a dog to point! And, I CAN give good advice in one hundred words or less! We meet tomorrow on this sporting ground to resolve our dispute, and, to the victor, THE SPOILS! Hmm, might have overdone it a bit there. But, check in tomorrow once I have my youtubes downloaded.

I guess I would define a point as a natural response to scenting game that is engrained in the dogs DNA. I do believe you can teach a non-pointing dog to whoa when it scents birds, but I would argue that that dog doesn't point game, it whoas on game. The good news is, odds are, this pup has the point in his DNA, the OP just needs to either be patient or help create situations that encourage it to come out.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:08 pm

A hundred word lesson in how to get your dog to point (not including the title)

Equipment matters! Tie a quail wing to nine foot flyrod or crappie stick rod with sixteen inches of heavy line like spider wire. Drag it in front of you dog and he should chase it. DON'T LET HIM CATCH IT! Keep him chasing with irregular movements until he begins to tire and slow. Let the wing lie still. Just before he grabs it, whip it up and over his head to ground behind him. If he spins and stops, leave the wing on the ground. Viola, he's POINTING! If he doesn't do it the first time repeat until he does.

The Proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIeVjl97Q4w
Now, in response to DogNewbie, that dog is not whoa'd, he is sight pointing. If he will sight point, he will scent point it is just a matter of repetitions.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:14 pm

By the way, pointing is actually an extended hesitation nearly all canines utilize before the pounce. Pointing people simply extend that hesitation while flushing people train it out.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:18 pm

I've owned dogs that hunted & pointed looking like a million bucks but would never point a wing!! Just sayin.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:44 pm

The best dog I have owned, never showed any interest at all in a wing.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:20 am

labman626 wrote:He is just running busting birds he is about 7 months old. These are birds I set out trying to work him into the scent so that he will smell it and hopefully slow down and try to creep up on it and eventually point.

Labman: I did not read all the posts as most of them PO'ed me.

First: I would definately take Maurice up on his offer.
Second: The thing that stands out to me is you are working the dog into the wind.. Dog on CC Work the dog cross wind. You will see the dog turn the first few times towards the bird as it hits that scent. Either have someone flush the bird or have the bird in a launcher and pop the bird when he hits that scent and does not stop.

After a few times he probably will stop and flash point and may take a step if he even flinches, pop the bird again. Eventually, he will be pointing then you need to help him hold his points longer. He just needs the light turned on.

Rick

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:57 am

rinker wrote:The best dog I have owned, never showed any interest at all in a wing.

I agree that the wing is not the only way to train or even the best way to train for some dogs. In my experience, about 1 in 10 (I'm up to around 100 now) shows little or no interest the wing and that no interest does not equate to no bird dog. However, with a dog that chases as labman describes I am very nearly 100% certain he would chase a wing to no end. I would also say that dogs that will not chase a wing on a string in the yard are one of two things: either dogs with little or no drive, or, dogs that are smart enough to realize it is not reality and the game simply holds no interest for them. As well, a mature dog that has finally had success on live birds will not bother with puppy games. Still, the challenge was teach a dog (not every dog) to point in 100 words or less. I think the video makes my point.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:24 am

Labman, I also read where Maurice invited you up. That is a great offering. It will be worth the drive, my word on that. He will share lil things with you, that will help you learn, and or understand things, alot better. Myself, I would take a notebook, and a good pen, there will be some things while you are watching you might wanna question. Write it down, so you dont forget, or take some notes on the lil things he talks on. If you stay all day, make him take you up to CLOCK'S to eat lunch!! Heck, that there is worth my 5 hr drive down!! Thanks, Jonesy

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:31 am

Come on. This pup is only 7 mos old. My pointer was near 9 mos before she stopped and pointed a bird. That same pointer is running today on Mike Tracy's string at the Georgia Derby Classic. One of only a handful he will be running in the hour stakes this weekend. Not all pups point right away, and the fact that he is not pointing yet means absolutely nothing.

As a side note, Kona, now Palara, never would stop for a pigeon. From what tommyboy told me, neither does her momma. The only way for us to use pigeons was to shackle a quail or chukar and place it in front of the traps to get her to stop. We then popped the pigeon that was 10 or so yards behind.

This is still a young pup. Just keep giving it opportunities and the pup should come around. If it still won't point at a year or year and a half then worry.

Joe

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:11 am

My pointer was near 9 mos before she stopped and pointed a bird.

This pup is only 7 mos old.

That's near 9 mo, right?

Just keep giving it opportunities and the pup should come around.

Isnt that what he is doing going up to Maurice's place? Heck, what a better opportunity.....new grounds, new scenary, a little bit of time on the road, and the ability to show his dog, a bunch of new things.
The deal of Mike running the dog is great, tell Gerorge and Mary, Jonesy says Hi!! George eats here almost everytime he comes up. If you would like to bring attention, and brag on it. I guess we will all watch an see now what happens. I hope it does a good job. What will be interesting will be the finish of your dog, or if any, the write up on it? Thanks Jonesy

Labman, do what ya want, I wont say anymore on this, just trying to help out, Thanks Jonesy