Field trial dog

[Wingman]

So I new owner of a AKC black lab puppy and I plan on trying to conquer the world with him lol! BY That I mean hunt upland(I have some experience) and start hunting waterfowl(newbie), but also want to try getting my hunt titles and maybe try field trIals because my pup comes from very strong lineage and I want a new hobby in the off season! However I have heard that trial dogs are USUALLY not as good of hunters in general?? I know this probably is not true for all dogs but being a novice trainer(I have trained one other dog to upland hunt as a flusher) is this a good idea?? Or am I over my waders? Thanks for reading

[Neil]

I would train him to the basic levels, singles on land and water, try a JH at a hunting test and see how you and the dog like it. Field trials are a pretty big step, takes a lot of time and money. But go to both and see for yourself. And it is a nyth that field trail do not make good hunting dogs.

[Cajun Casey]

If your experience is more upland, I would suggest HRC as a starting point.

[whoadog]

I think the "trial dogs don't make good hunting dogs" has more to do with pointing breeds than retrievers. I worked for a pro trainer that regularly hunted his trial Labs and he had numerous FCs and even a NFC. He claimed his national champ (which had died long before I ever had the opportunity to meet her) was the best waterfowl dog he ever hunted with. I'm sure there are others with more experience that might take a different position, but, if your dog can win at the retriever trial game, then there is very little that will blow his mind out hunting ducks.

[deseeker]

I think the "trial dogs don't make good hunting dogs" has more to do with pointing breeds than retrievers.

Where's the popcorn, I want to get a ringside seat for this battle
Look at the hunting section of the forum---alot of those dogs you see pointing chucks in the mountains are field trial dogs.

[Wildweeds]

In any breed or genre,pointing flushing retrieving I think the amount of huntability the dog has is specific to each dog.I've hunted with a NFC that was outdone more than once by a derby aged hunting dog.My buddy has a wirehair that he had his buddy a pro lab field trial handler/trainer train for hunting waterfowl,the lab pro told him that the wirehair was better at retrieving than a good portion of his string including a NFC that the client had over 50K into.

I think the "trial dogs don't make good hunting dogs" has more to do with pointing breeds than retrievers. I worked for a pro trainer that regularly hunted his trial Labs and he had numerous FCs and even a NFC. He claimed his national champ (which had died long before I ever had the opportunity to meet her) was the best waterfowl dog he ever hunted with. I'm sure there are others with more experience that might take a different position, but, if your dog can win at the retriever trial game, then there is very little that will blow his mind out hunting ducks.

[Neil]

Better than a NFC?

He may have said it, but that doesn't make it true. I need names and dates. I have been to their Nationals, they ask their dogs to do things like tripple 300 yard marks, with diversion birds and honor, or my favorite, a 200 yard channel blind.

[Waterdogs1]

If that wirehair can do a monster water quad and run 600 yd land or water blind then that is one heck of a dog. Wingman get with someone that has had success in the venue you want to train your dog in. Learn all you can from the best you can and enjoy it for what it is a journey. I hunted behind a young FC today and that dog was flat out amazing. I respect any animal that competes at that level. The different games will make you a better dog handler and make your dog even better.

[slistoe]

the lab pro told him that the wirehair was better at retrieving than a good portion of his string including a NFC that the client had over 50K into.

Did he at least get a repeat booking for training for that tidbit?

[jcbuttry8]

I think the "trial dogs don't make good hunting dogs" has more to do with pointing breeds than retrievers.

Where's the popcorn, I want to get a ringside seat for this battle
Look at the hunting section of the forum---alot of those dogs you see pointing chucks in the mountains are field trial dogs.

That's exactly why you rarely see any field trial titles in any of the hunting dogs pedigrees. :roll: :roll: Good thing spring is coming around. To many people sitting around the fire for to long.

Joe

[EvanG]

It didn't take long for the manure to get deep here. But, in general, dogs often produce more passion than rational discussion - especially when it turns to silly comparisons of one favored type of dog versus another. I traveled the US for years competing in trials, but never had a trial dog that I didn't also hunt. I had pointing dogs that were sound retrievers, but were never going to perform on par with even my middle of the road retrievers. And I've hunted over pointing Labs that did a competent job, but were never going to run all day and range with a first rate pointer.

This kind of nonsense has been shoveled for generations, and it still smells the same.

EvanG

[whoadog]

Hmm, I wasn't trying to say that field trial dogs don't make good hunting dogs. In fact, I am saying just the opposite. I can say for certainty that field trial Labradors do make good hunting dogs. I have spoken at length with an authority (a retriever trial trainer with over 30 years experience) and from personal observation. Retriever field trials are the ultimate in "dog control" with crazy things like "poison birds" meant to eliminate even very good dogs. Your average retriever will never see these kinds of situations in the hunting blind. I have also watched and participated in pointing dog trials. I am also absolutely certain that in some hunting situations a field trial pointer would excel, and with a competent handler, I might even go so far as "most hunting situations". But, it is a different kind of dog game that encourages styles of behavior not always conducive to effectiveness as a gun dog. What I am refering to namely is range. Now, before any one jumps down my throat, I have no problem with a big running dog because, after 25+ years of training experience, I can control it. However, for some one that even needs to ask the original question, I'd tell them to stay away from a field trial pointing lines until they knew what they were doing.

But, back to the original question, if the dog has the drive, there is no reason not to hunt and trial a Labrador retriever.

[Neil]

I think some may find it interesting that I have had a little pointing dog field trial success and yet if someone claimed to have a dog that could out hunt a NC I would not argue, it is very possible. We really do not ask that much of our dogs in terms of trainaiblity.

However, the retriever guys take it to a whole another level.

[slistoe]

Retriever field trials are the ultimate in "dog control" with crazy things like "poison birds" meant to eliminate even very good dogs. Your average retriever will never see these kinds of situations in the hunting blind.

You claim a whole bunch of stuff but you really haven't watched or thought it through, have you. My retrievers were doing "poison birds" in everyday work before I knew that such a thing existed. When I put the dog on a line to the winged flyer that went down 400 yards out in the field I certainly would not tolerate the dog stopping to pick up the two dead birds lying in the decoys at 25 yards. From a working retriever standpoint that is pure foolishness. But if they incorporate that into a field trial it somehow becomes crazy nonsense.

[crackerd]

We really do not ask that much of our dogs in terms of trainaiblity.

However, the retriever guys take it to a whole another level.

Shhh, hush with such heresy, Neil or you'll get called for encroachment onto birddog turf

Retriever field trials are the ultimate in "dog control" with crazy things like "poison birds" meant to eliminate even very good dogs. Your average retriever will never see these kinds of situations in the hunting blind.

Like what you're saying, whoadog, but the duck dog in a blind will indeed see this scenario, just in a different way: The retriever will need to be handled off a marked fall ("poison bird") to a cripple that's swimming away. Requires same level of control, if not stricter. Gunning over a FT retriever may get it a little loose from that control, but you can always refresh things when training starts anew in the water in spring. (Don't see any detrimental consequences whatsoever for a field trial retriever stemming from upland work.)

If anything, my motto is more hunting, less trialing. Alas, it's the inverse that's happened with my 20-month old soon (I hope) for all-age stakes -




- she didn't get the kind of experience with waterfowl as a pup to really stoke her fire for the kind of retrieving required within all that complex training Neil's cited. That's led me to hold her out of trials - but now that's she's catching on to the hunting, she's also catching up to her calling.

MG

[crackerd]

My retrievers were doing "poison birds" in everyday work before I knew that such a thing existed. When I put the dog on a line to the winged flyer that went down 400 yards out in the field I certainly would not tolerate the dog stopping to pick up the two dead birds lying in the decoys at 25 yards. From a working retriever standpoint that is pure foolishness. But if they incorporate that into a field trial it somehow becomes crazy nonsense.

Scott, a little clarification on what constitutes a "poison bird." A flyer is a poison bird only when FT retrievers are asked to run past it or swim past it on a blind - the two dead birds as described above are NOT poison birds in a trial context when the dog's asked to run past them to get a flyer.

Every competitive retriever on the face of the earth lives for a flyer - unfortunately, you're not allowed to have flyers in Canadian retriever FTs. But you would never willingly in a trial have a dog run past a shorter mark - unless that was the intent of the judges in setting up something dastardly and cruel called a middle indent retired test.

When a flyer is shot as the first bird say in a triple or quad, it's called an out-of-order flyer and almost always is the longest bird down. The dog will pick up the "go-bird" (shorter mark of the three or four) and then have that overwhelming desire to go for the flyer - bypassing the medium-distance mark. When the dog comes back with the flyer, it is inevitably looking to go long for another bird - meaning longer than the flyer, since FT retrievers are trained to pick birds in the order of short, long, longer. So you'll see why that medium-distance mark nor the flyer can be called "poison birds."

MG

[Sharon]

It didn't take long for the manure to get deep here. But, in general, dogs often produce more passion than rational discussion - especially when it turns to silly comparisons of one favored type of dog versus another. I traveled the US for years competing in trials, but never had a trial dog that I didn't also hunt. I had pointing dogs that were sound retrievers, but were never going to perform on par with even my middle of the road retrievers. And I've hunted over pointing Labs that did a competent job, but were never going to run all day and range with a first rate pointer.

This kind of nonsense has been shoveled for generations, and it still smells the same.

EvanG

Exactly. I can't imagine a dog who did well in trials and couldn't hunt the bush ( ON) wilds USA).

[whoadog]

u claim a whole bunch of stuff but you really haven't watched or thought it through, have you.

Yes, I have. I spent about 6-8 hours a day, 5 days a week for more than a year watching and helping a professional field trialer train Labs to do their thing. Let me be clear about something. I AM NOT bashing field trialing, especially retrievers. I find the work the best of those dogs do to be absolutely amazing. When I say "crazy", I don't mean insane, I mean unbeliebly difficult. I believe in controlling your dog, so, "the ultimate in dog control", is not an insult. Rather, it is a compliment. So, don't get'cher panties in a bunch about whether or not trials are a good or a bad thing. The question is, "Can a trial dog be a good hunting dog?" My answer is: "Yes, especially with the retrievers." What's your's?

[EvanG]

This is a group of my clients, each with their field trial dogs; 2 are FC-AFCs. All were on the National Derby List (one of them #3), and all QAA. Every one was hunted every season once their Basics were done.

EvanG

[crackerd]

have been to their Nationals, they ask their dogs to do things like tripple 300 yard marks, with diversion birds and honor, or my favorite, a 200 yard channel blind.

Neil, it's paradoxical that "our" weekend trials are usually far tougher than the National - the marks longer and more complex, blinds tougher, and if you run the open stakes, you're going against 97 percent pro-trained and pro-handled dogs, of which a pro may have 10-15 dogs or more on their truck entered in that particular trial. The "crazy" competition is necessary in the all-age stakes as the judges have two days to pick a winner in the amateur trial from typically 80-90 dogs, and the better part of three days to find the open winner which usually has a few more dogs still.

Meanwhile the dog that becomes NFC had to qualify for the National against all comers in retriever trials - no breed-exclusive trials except for each breed's specialty but you cannot make up an FC or AFC purely on specialty points. The National winner is the dog that managed to "hold it together" over the course of 7-8 days against 125 other retrievers to emerge as the NFC. "The" NFC - because as Neil knows there's only one amongst retrievers each year.

Wingman, where are you located? - we can probably get you into some training, and certainly with sweat equity you'll be welcomed to come and help out, as well getting help yourself and learning the game.

MG

[Neil]

I am getting lost in this thread, I don't know if you are agreeing with me or correcting me, sorry.

I do know MG's last paragraph is what is important, find a training group.

And a retriever NFC is a great animal by any standard.

[crackerd]

Just following on to your acute observations.

MG

[Wingman]

Wow! Being a rookie and all I had no idea my question would spark such a debate. Thanks for all the responses! Really interesting stuff. Crackerd I am from Spokane Washington. I am the proud owner of a 9 week old lab pup and I am very excited to go full throttle with him. He is my first AKC dog and like I said he has strong lineage with Field champs, MH,SH, and some strong hunters. So I really want to explore some hobbies besides the hunting season if you know what I mean. So you all might see a lot of questons on this site from me about training and hunting! Thanks again fellas

[crackerd]

Told you'd get some terrific offers of help over there, fella - them retriever folks are pretty good eggs and sweat equity gets you a lot of training mileage.

Let us know how it goes.

MG