Come/check cord

[brianb]

My 5 month old setter pup responds to his come command in the house and yard and when he's on his check cord in the field. The second I release the check cord in the field, he doesn't come when called. He's off running until he's out of sight. We train in a fenced field trial area so I'm not worried about losing him. It can take me a long time to finally track him down. I've tried the hiding technique but it doesn't work. He doesn't seem real concerned about where I am. Is it time for the ecollar or should I keep trying to work him on the check cord? What's the best way to introduce the e collar for the come command?

[Sharon]

Time to condition from the cc to an e collar. PM sent on how to do it.

[Doc E]

Time to condition from the cc to an e collar. PM sent on how to do it.

The majority of us retriever folks CC (ecollar) to HERE at about 4 months of age.
Sharon --- Why keep it a secret, what is your method ?
I use the ecollar to HERE via the Smartwork Puppy DVD.



.

[GSP_Hunting Machine]

Time to condition from the cc to an e collar. PM sent on how to do it.

I am having THIS EXACT problem to the point of my dog got hit by a car!! Please do share if not I would REALLY appreciate a PM.

Thanks!

[slistoe]

My 5 month old setter pup responds to his come command in the house and yard and when he's on his check cord in the field. The second I release the check cord in the field, he doesn't come when called. He's off running until he's out of sight. We train in a fenced field trial area so I'm not worried about losing him. It can take me a long time to finally track him down. I've tried the hiding technique but it doesn't work. He doesn't seem real concerned about where I am. Is it time for the ecollar or should I keep trying to work him on the check cord? What's the best way to introduce the e collar for the come command?

Why did you release the CC? You taught him the command was optional.

[Duckdon]

Time to condition from the cc to an e collar. PM sent on how to do it.

x2

[Sharon]

Time to condition from the cc to an e collar. PM sent on how to do it.

The majority of us retriever folks CC (ecollar) to HERE at about 4 months of age.
Sharon --- Why keep it a secret, what is your method ?
I use the ecollar to HERE via the Smartwork Puppy DVD.

.

Gee, you even get in trouble when you keep your thoughts to yourself. When it comes to something like "e collar conditioning" everyone has an opinion. I don't feel like laying the basis for an argument to-night ; seems to be an epidemic lately. Also others like Ray could say it much better than I.
This forum is FULL of very experienced, knowledgeable trainers. My accomplishments haven't earned me the right to be in that club , so I always hesitate on giving training advice.

[Tooling]

Consistency and do your best to make the pup WANT to come to you. Read your dog and at this stage make sure you never "dupe" your pup. What I mean is don't get all excited and seduce pup into recalling enthusiastically just to capture them or otherwise make them do what they don't really want to do like kenneling up or something. Don't get me wrong because that is going to be a reality at some point and even if it is your current objective to kennel up or something...try to do it gradually like inside of a five minute span or something several times. Then begin some structured sessions where your demeanor is not necessarily all fun and giddy but rather a command..not a shout..a command. NEVER give a command at this stage that you cannot enforce...that means a CC which will eventually lead to the ecollar. (In my opinion you're not ready for the ecollar yet) Also during this stage in a safe area to run make sure his/her arrival to you does not always end up a capture or something of that nature. Walk around..let pup run and be pup..when you see the pup make eye contact then turn and run..engage in fun with the pup. Call in for no reason at all but to give a pet or a roll around on the ground...chase pup down and roll them..give chase to pup to let them roll you...throw stuff and play capture the flag. Once you have a good bond, pup will WANT to come. Remember the number one rule..A dog is only out for him/herself PERIOD...they work in their own best interest PERIOD...use this to your advantage. When it's fun..keep it fun...when it's structured training do not act all giddy with pup but be firm without getting frustrated...trust me pup can read your emotions..they need to be genuine. Do not underestimate the power of ignoring your pup when they are being a jerk and uncooperative. Once they start fawning and following you because you are ignoring then you have them engaged and wanting your approval + wanting to please...build from there.

[magspa]

one thing to remember is to never give a command you control. So if you do let her off the CC to run free, dont plan on giving the "here" command if she probably wont listen, until she is ecollar conditioned.

Oops I posted this before reading Tooling's post. Great post btw.

[gotpointers]

Time to condition from the cc to an e collar. PM sent on how to do it.

The majority of us retriever folks CC (ecollar) to HERE at about 4 months of age.
Sharon --- Why keep it a secret, what is your method ?
I use the ecollar to HERE via the Smartwork Puppy DVD.

.

Gee, you even get in trouble when you keep your thoughts to yourself. When it comes to something like "e collar conditioning" everyone has an opinion. I don't feel like laying the basis for an argument to-night ; seems to be an epidemic lately. Also others like Ray could say it much better than I.
This forum is FULL of very experienced, knowledgeable trainers. My accomplishments haven't earned me the right to be in that club , so I always hesitate on giving training advice.

I believe you are more than in the club. But like you said there's always some armchair quarterback looking to argue how to skin a cat. I don't blame you a bit.

[Doc E]

The one thing that any two dog trainers will agree on is what the third one is doing wrong.


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[DogNewbie]

I think the pup is ready for the ecollar. Make sure he's worn it with no stim being used for a month or two and it should go smoothly. I like to use low level continuous stimulation to set the standard that the pup turns off the stim by obeying the command. So for recall, I'd start in your backyard with the cc on. When the pup gets to the end of the cc and assuming you taught recall by giving tugs of the cc to encourage him to return to you, simply give enough stim to get the pups attention, then command recall. He'll probably scratch at his neck the first few times to try to stop it. Just reel him in and stop the stim once he gets to you so he learns how to turn it off. Once he gets how to turn off the stim you can teach him that he can avoid it all together by giving the command first, and if ignored, give the stim until he comes to you. Once he's recalling in the backyard off leash with no stim, take him to the field and put the cc back on. This transition should be pretty smooth since he already mastered the backyard. It can also be helpful to change up your training locations to the pup learns that the command must be obeyed no matter where he is.

[Tooling]

I think the pup is ready for the ecollar. Make sure he's worn it with no stim being used for a month or two and it should go smoothly. I like to use low level continuous stimulation to set the standard that the pup turns off the stim by obeying the command. So for recall, I'd start in your backyard with the cc on. When the pup gets to the end of the cc and assuming you taught recall by giving tugs of the cc to encourage him to return to you, simply give enough stim to get the pups attention, then command recall. He'll probably scratch at his neck the first few times to try to stop it. Just reel him in and stop the stim once he gets to you so he learns how to turn it off. Once he gets how to turn off the stim you can teach him that he can avoid it all together by giving the command first, and if ignored, give the stim until he comes to you. Once he's recalling in the backyard off leash with no stim, take him to the field and put the cc back on. This transition should be pretty smooth since he already mastered the backyard. It can also be helpful to change up your training locations to the pup learns that the command must be obeyed no matter where he is.

You stimulate the entire time the dog is heading to you? The second my dog does not react to my recall by turning and heading my direction I give him a tap and remain continuous until he does turn to me...the SECOND he turns my direction I release the stimulation. If he stops or turns his attention toward anything else I stim until his attention and direction is on me again and instantly stop the stim once his attention is back on me and headed my way. Once he reaches me I give him a pet or a good boy but I'll be "bleep" if his reward is going to be a lack of stimulation. At first when pups a youngster give them a good dog praise once they have turned and are coming but at some point it is more appropriate to hold back from a verbal praise until they are at your side...and even then step back a few paces and only if they come to your side do they get an attaboy. When your teaching the recall try to create an award or make the dog understand it is in there best interest with a treat or maybe even a bird...heck..he'll/she'll never know quite what to expect but positive reinforcement and a "reward" of some sort definitely goes a long way in increasing the odds that your dog will obey your command. The more your pup obeys the command the more likely he/she will continue to do so..this is the consistency part of the equation. Before long your dog will simply react without even a hint of thought or hesitation...this be a good thing.

[DogNewbie]

I think the pup is ready for the ecollar. Make sure he's worn it with no stim being used for a month or two and it should go smoothly. I like to use low level continuous stimulation to set the standard that the pup turns off the stim by obeying the command. So for recall, I'd start in your backyard with the cc on. When the pup gets to the end of the cc and assuming you taught recall by giving tugs of the cc to encourage him to return to you, simply give enough stim to get the pups attention, then command recall. He'll probably scratch at his neck the first few times to try to stop it. Just reel him in and stop the stim once he gets to you so he learns how to turn it off. Once he gets how to turn off the stim you can teach him that he can avoid it all together by giving the command first, and if ignored, give the stim until he comes to you. Once he's recalling in the backyard off leash with no stim, take him to the field and put the cc back on. This transition should be pretty smooth since he already mastered the backyard. It can also be helpful to change up your training locations to the pup learns that the command must be obeyed no matter where he is.

You stimulate the entire time the dog is heading to you? The second my dog does not react to my recall by turning and heading my direction I give him a tap and remain continuous until he does turn to me...the SECOND he turns my direction I release the stimulation. If he stops or turns his attention toward anything else I stim until his attention and direction is on me again and instantly stop the stim once his attention is back on me and headed my way. Once he reaches me I give him a pet or a good boy but I'll be "bleep" if his reward is going to be a lack of stimulation. At first when pups a youngster give them a good dog praise once they have turned and are coming but at some point it is more appropriate to hold back from a verbal praise until they are at your side...and even then step back a few paces and only if they come to your side do they get an attaboy. When your teaching the recall try to create an award or make the dog understand it is in there best interest with a treat or maybe even a bird...heck..he'll/she'll never know quite what to expect but positive reinforcement and a "reward" of some sort definitely goes a long way in increasing the odds that your dog will obey your command. The more your pup obeys the command the more likely he/she will continue to do so..this is the consistency part of the equation. Before long your dog will simply react without even a hint of thought or hesitation...this be a good thing.

In the very beginning I stim the whole way to me to set the standard that when the command is given it must be completed to the end. This is done only on the cc so it's only a few seconds and you drag the pup into you to help get the concept through its head. Once I move on to stim after the command is ignored, I stop the stim once the dog is coming to me. It's more of a reminder at that point. To me it sounds like he has done the leg work with the positive reinforcement side of recall. I 100% agree with what you've said so far, I just think the pup is ready for the next step. From what I'm reading it sounds like the pup is excited and recalls when there are zero distractions, which is an indicator of the OP's positive reinforcement training IMO. OP, please correct me if I'm wrong, because having a pup excited about recalling back to you is extremely important. That being said, I think most of us had pups that, at 5 months, blew us off when there were distractions. This doesn't mean our bond with the pup was weak or we didn't use enough positive reinforcement in training, it simply means the pups genetic code to range out and explore/hunt is kicking in. For me, I want to let the pup do as much off leash exploring as possible, but I'm not willing to risk it without having control. That's why I'd move on to ecollar training. If I were the OP, I'd keep giving the pup free run time, but just leave the commands for the backyard ecollar training for now. Then once the pup has mastered the backyard, you can transition to the field. Just remember to avoid all off leash cc training until the pup is showing a strong understanding of your expectations.

[Sharon]

I think the pup is ready for the ecollar. Make sure he's worn it with no stim being used for a month or two and it should go smoothly. I like to use low level continuous stimulation to set the standard that the pup turns off the stim by obeying the command. So for recall, I'd start in your backyard with the cc on. When the pup gets to the end of the cc and assuming you taught recall by giving tugs of the cc to encourage him to return to you, simply give enough stim to get the pups attention, then command recall. He'll probably scratch at his neck the first few times to try to stop it. Just reel him in and stop the stim once he gets to you so he learns how to turn it off. Once he gets how to turn off the stim you can teach him that he can avoid it all together by giving the command first, and if ignored, give the stim until he comes to you. Once he's recalling in the backyard off leash with no stim, take him to the field and put the cc back on. This transition should be pretty smooth since he already mastered the backyard. It can also be helpful to change up your training locations to the pup learns that the command must be obeyed no matter where he is.

You stimulate the entire time the dog is heading to you? The second my dog does not react to my recall by turning and heading my direction I give him a tap and remain continuous until he does turn to me...the SECOND he turns my direction I release the stimulation. If he stops or turns his attention toward anything else I stim until his attention and direction is on me again and instantly stop the stim once his attention is back on me and headed my way. Once he reaches me I give him a pet or a good boy but I'll be "bleep" if his reward is going to be a lack of stimulation. At first when pups a youngster give them a good dog praise once they have turned and are coming but at some point it is more appropriate to hold back from a verbal praise until they are at your side...and even then step back a few paces and only if they come to your side do they get an attaboy. When your teaching the recall try to create an award or make the dog understand it is in there best interest with a treat or maybe even a bird...heck..he'll/she'll never know quite what to expect but positive reinforcement and a "reward" of some sort definitely goes a long way in increasing the odds that your dog will obey your command. The more your pup obeys the command the more likely he/she will continue to do so..this is the consistency part of the equation. Before long your dog will simply react without even a hint of thought or hesitation...this be a good thing.

Both methods are used. Both do the job.

[aulrich]

I think this is out of the NAVHDA green book, but a trick they talked about was to have a short leash attached after the check cord comes off, and I got the impression that short means not even long enough to hit the ground. Supposed to fool with thier mind giving them the impression that they are still under control.

I found condtitioning to recall on a three blast of a whistle to be really useful it's loud and nutral, a whistle never sounds angry it's just here. The other day the boy got out of the yard(meter reader mist have left the gate open) while panick was ensuing one of my cool headed kids got the whitle 3 toots and 30 seconds later the pup runs in the yard.

[slistoe]

I think the pup is ready for the ecollar. Make sure he's worn it with no stim being used for a month or two and it should go smoothly. I like to use low level continuous stimulation to set the standard that the pup turns off the stim by obeying the command. So for recall, I'd start in your backyard with the cc on. When the pup gets to the end of the cc and assuming you taught recall by giving tugs of the cc to encourage him to return to you, simply give enough stim to get the pups attention, then command recall. He'll probably scratch at his neck the first few times to try to stop it. Just reel him in and stop the stim once he gets to you so he learns how to turn it off. Once he gets how to turn off the stim you can teach him that he can avoid it all together by giving the command first, and if ignored, give the stim until he comes to you. Once he's recalling in the backyard off leash with no stim, take him to the field and put the cc back on. This transition should be pretty smooth since he already mastered the backyard. It can also be helpful to change up your training locations to the pup learns that the command must be obeyed no matter where he is.

You stimulate the entire time the dog is heading to you? The second my dog does not react to my recall by turning and heading my direction I give him a tap and remain continuous until he does turn to me...the SECOND he turns my direction I release the stimulation. If he stops or turns his attention toward anything else I stim until his attention and direction is on me again and instantly stop the stim once his attention is back on me and headed my way. Once he reaches me I give him a pet or a good boy but I'll be "bleep" if his reward is going to be a lack of stimulation. At first when pups a youngster give them a good dog praise once they have turned and are coming but at some point it is more appropriate to hold back from a verbal praise until they are at your side...and even then step back a few paces and only if they come to your side do they get an attaboy. When your teaching the recall try to create an award or make the dog understand it is in there best interest with a treat or maybe even a bird...heck..he'll/she'll never know quite what to expect but positive reinforcement and a "reward" of some sort definitely goes a long way in increasing the odds that your dog will obey your command. The more your pup obeys the command the more likely he/she will continue to do so..this is the consistency part of the equation. Before long your dog will simply react without even a hint of thought or hesitation...this be a good thing.

Both methods are used. Both do the job.

One way teaches the dog, the other nags the dog IMO.

[Sharon]

I agree.

[DogNewbie]

It may be nagging the dog but it definitely teaches the dog. It's the exact same philosophy as FF. The pressure only comes off once the task is completed. Like FF, eventually the stim is only used as a reminder.

[slistoe]

I don't think you are nagging at all.

[Sharon]

It may be nagging the dog but it definitely teaches the dog. It's the exact same philosophy as FF. The pressure only comes off once the task is completed. Like FF, eventually the stim is only used as a reminder.

Very good point . Hadn't thought of that.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Are you "nagging" if you tug on a check cord?

[slistoe]

When you start with "come" on a check cord you apply stimulation all the way in - at least I do.

It is my experience that very few people use an e-collar to actually teach dog things - they nag at them with the collar.

[campgsp]

When training a dog everything you teach them is done with nagging. Your imprinting the message (command) in their head. Repetition is a nice form to nagging.

[slistoe]

Repetition is imprinting learned behavior.
We differ on semantics.

[brianb]

In the very beginning I stim the whole way to me to set the standard that when the command is given it must be completed to the end. This is done only on the cc so it's only a few seconds and you drag the pup into you to help get the concept through its head. Once I move on to stim after the command is ignored, I stop the stim once the dog is coming to me. It's more of a reminder at that point. To me it sounds like he has done the leg work with the positive reinforcement side of recall. I 100% agree with what you've said so far, I just think the pup is ready for the next step. From what I'm reading it sounds like the pup is excited and recalls when there are zero distractions, which is an indicator of the OP's positive reinforcement training IMO. OP, please correct me if I'm wrong, because having a pup excited about recalling back to you is extremely important. That being said, I think most of us had pups that, at 5 months, blew us off when there were distractions. This doesn't mean our bond with the pup was weak or we didn't use enough positive reinforcement in training, it simply means the pups genetic code to range out and explore/hunt is kicking in. For me, I want to let the pup do as much off leash exploring as possible, but I'm not willing to risk it without having control. That's why I'd move on to ecollar training. If I were the OP, I'd keep giving the pup free run time, but just leave the commands for the backyard ecollar training for now. Then once the pup has mastered the backyard, you can transition to the field. Just remember to avoid all off leash cc training until the pup is showing a strong understanding of your expectations.
**************************************

Thanks for all the responses. He is excited to go point birds and comes when there are no other distractions. When he realizes he has freedom, the fun of pointing birds far outweighs the fun of coming to me.
I am going to slowly start transitioning him to the ecollar. He's a a bird crazy independent confident dog that I feel is ready at this point. This method seems to make a lot of sense to me.

[DogNewbie]

Just make sure the pup has worn the collar for long enough that he wont associate the stim with the collar being on. Don't want to be dependent upon the collar in order to get your dog to listen to you.

[slistoe]

Just make sure the pup has worn the collar for long enough that he wont associate the stim with the collar being on. Don't want to be dependent upon the collar in order to get your dog to listen to you.

Good advice since he already taught the dog there was a difference between the CC on and off, best to avert a repeat with the collar.

[buckeyebowman]

It may be nagging the dog but it definitely teaches the dog. It's the exact same philosophy as FF. The pressure only comes off once the task is completed. Like FF, eventually the stim is only used as a reminder.

Very good point . Hadn't thought of that.

I'm going to chime in here, even though I'm a newb in this forum, have only trained a couple of bird dogs in my life though I've had dogs all my life, and am by no means an expert. Every dog, even of the same breed, is different, and some of them need to be nagged into doing what you want. Some are just more stubborn, willful, boneheaded, or whatever term you wish to use.

[Huntumup]

When u say let the dog wear the collar for a month or two do u mean 24/7 ,just during the day or just when training

[slistoe]

Nagging gains compliance at the moment but does not effect change in behavior - thus you are committed to nagging whenever you want compliance. An instructional program should be aimed at changing behavior, not compliance at the moment.