Gun Breaking Lab?

[Double Shot Banks]

Hello,
Soon we are going to start gun breaking my lab with a frozen bird, (I'm sure Doc E will love this part) i am following Tom Dokkens Retriever Training book, it says to start with a partner throwing the bird and shooting, having the dog retrieve to you, and your partner will move closer and then a bigger gun etc etc.
Since i know my dog is slightly gun shy should i still use this method or should I throw the bird, and have a parter with the gun stand way farther away (100 yards or so)? If you get what im saying, also, should i start with a .22 short, blank, or even a cap gun (the ones kids play with)?
Thanks a lot, If you need more details on my question i will gladly let you know,
Thanks
Isaac and Banks

[Hoosierdaddy]

If you have a gun-shy dog,you already have a major problem.One that i was not able to fix in a dog that i had,because of lack of knowledge and time.I would be very careful around this dog because you are taking the chance to make the problem much worse than better.A pro with proven results in gun-shyness would be my suggestion.

[Duckdon]

If you think your dog is already gun shy I suggest you send him down to Perfection Kennels and have Jon and Cindy Hann work him up. They are next door to you in Missouri. Just a thought.
Another option, get their Perfect Start DVD set. It has a real good part on introducing your pup to gun fire. Don

[Doc E]

Soon we are going to start gun breaking my lab with a frozen bird, (I'm sure Doc E will love this part) i am following Tom Dokkens Retriever Training book,Isaac and Banks

As I said before, you get what you pay for............ And the end results will show it.


.

[whoadog]

Good morning DSB.
We have discussed this before I believe. The first step in gunshy cure is de-sensitizing your dog to loud sound. But, Dokken's method could be seen as this very thing. My method is very different and I will not discuss it on the open forum as it is a part of my business. It is very important that once you begin, you gun train every day until you get the results you need with the caveat of the very first session as discussed below. I use training sessions that last no more than about a minute several times over the course of a day. I also find that when I am gun breaking shy dogs, it works best when the only times they are out of the kennel is when we are in those very short sessions. I want the dog to be almost stir-crazy when we are gun breaking. In my experience, the initial stage of gunshy cure can take as little as 3 weeks or as long as 6 months. A truly gunshy dog will also need to be reintroduced to gunfire in a hunting situation. You must also be able to read your dog and know if you are reaching his tolerance level. If you decide to continue on your own, you handle the dog and always have a shotgun in your hands. Your partner handles the shooting. Use a cap gun with the frozen bird. If your dog is a retrieving fool he should accept that sound rather quickly. If you get too close on the first shot, put him away and wait several days before you try again. I dislike using a .22 or starter pistol at any time when working with a dog that has gun problems. Instead of a .22 I load an empty shell with just a primer and run it through a single shot 20 gauge. Start at the same "comfort distance" with the primer that you found with the cap gun. The final stage, a live round, what I have found is that doubling the distance between the primer and the full load is usually about right. At that point, I also switch to a clipped wing pigeon. Seeing that bird flopping around on the ground will often push down on the drive button so hard that they ignore that loud sound that you have slowly built up to.It is important to throw the bird first and then fire the shot as the bird reaches the height of its "flight" and is beginning to fall. The dog needs to associate the shot with the bird dropping out of the sky. Don't rush to move in with the live rounds. Rather, increase the number of shots at a distance to 2 and then 3 before you send the dog. When you increase the shots, take fewer feathers out of the wings so the bird can fly farther. Miss the bird on the first shot and kill it on the second. Each time you close the distance, repeat the process. That way the dog is accustomed to the routine and will accept it more readily.

[whoadog]

By the way, when I say "kill it on the second shot", I mean literally shoot the bird dead.

[sdsujacks]

We already have a pretty long thread on this for the same dog. From what I remember your dog is already gun shy. Hold off on guns for several months, introduce to birds or pigeons and let him have fun but dont introduce a gun.

[Double Shot Banks]

As a reply to everyone,
My plan was to use a cap gun first, but before that i will use a frozen bird and get him bird crazy and get him used to retrieving an accuall bird to hand.
Then i will do the same thing but with someone 100 yards away or so with a toy cap gun, shooting it when the bird is in the air (the dog will not be steady at all) and after 2 or 3 throws he will move 10 yards closer until he is right next to me and the dog, then back to 100 yards with a 22 short and a long rife (so it isnt as loud) and repeat the process then a .410 and then a 20 and a 12 guage,
My question was
Should i follow the book and have the shooter throw the bird and shoot the gun, while i control the dog, or because my dog is sort of gun shy (although i hate to use the term) should i thow the bird and control the dog so the gunshot is in the background and farther away
Thanks all of you
Isaac and Banks
P.S. Doc E, i did not mean to come across as "sarcastic" or anything, i know i bought a $13 book, but i also have a dad who has trained multiple labs, and even entered one in a couple hunt tests, The only reason i mentioned it is because i didnt want you saying "what training program are you following" so i provided the trianing program,

[sdsujacks]

As a reply to everyone,

P.S. Doc E, i did not mean to come across as "sarcastic" or anything, i know i bought a $13 book, but i also have a dad who has trained multiple labs, and even entered one in a couple hunt tests, The only reason i mentioned it is because i didnt want you saying "what training program are you following" so i provided the trianing program,

Made me laugh here, seems like the young buck is standing up to the veteran. I like the passion you have for this, asking the questions, acting through with what people are telling you and really wanting to become better. Best of luck!

[Waterdogs1]

If you have a gun shy dog already why are you so eager to start using a gun again. Why not just keep marking the the dog and building his retrieving and go on and FF and then come back and re intro the dog to the gun after he has had some time off from it. Some people get lucky even though they do most everything wrong some people don't and that is how it goes. I am sure you will get plenty of advice but it would serve you well to get with someone that has some knowledge and listen. You have a good chance of ruining your dog if you do not get it right but that is up to you.

[Doc E]

I forgot to mention something very important for you.
You need to join a Hunting Retriever Club and go to their training days. You'll meet a lot of folks who will be more than happy to help you out.
Click here and see what's available in Iowa : http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/maps.shtml



.

[Rookie]

I don’t know the history with your dog but I could share some things that happened to me. I introduced a dog likely too soon, while birds were involved. Two separate mistakes. I should have waited until he was bird crazy but I didn’t. So worse then having just a gun issue, he associated it with birds.

I separated the two completely. Each night at feeding time I would lay the food down and steady the dog. From 100 yards away my son would fire a gun and I would release him for his food. We crept in 5 yards a day. In about 10 days I would reach for the gun and he started getting excited and jumping around. 20 days into it the problem was fixed.

This is similar to what your plans are but just wanted to share. As to your question I would think anything that made if farther and more gradual would be best. No need to rush. Good luck.

[Garrison]

Find a way to get the cash together and buy Smartwork and follow it, stop guessing. With the help of a pro Brad and I have been working with a dog for over a year that was not introduced to the gun properly. The previous owner went with their own plan and it shows, we have spent countless hours and even more pigeons to get him properly conditioned and finally over the last four months we have made some real progress. Not knowing and guessing turned a weeks worth of work in to a dog that no one wanted. If it is a gun dog that you want, then stop making it an experiment, it has been done many times before follow the recipe step by step and you will reach your goal.

[Double Shot Banks]

Find a way to get the cash together and buy Smartwork and follow it, stop guessing. With the help of a pro Brad and I have been working with a dog for over a year that was not introduced to the gun properly. The previous owner went with their own plan and it shows, we have spent countless hours and even more pigeons to get him properly conditioned and finally over the last four months we have made some real progress. Not knowing and guessing turned a weeks worth of work in to a dog that no one wanted. If it is a gun dog that you want, then stop making it an experiment, it has been done many times before follow the recipe step by step and you will reach your goal.

as much as i want to, a $250 set of dvd's is not something i can save up for in a few weeks or even months, I see on Gundogsupply they have individual dvd's for about $25, do they have one dvd that is based on gun intro?
Thanks,
Isaac and Banks

[brad27]

Maybe someone on the forum would let you borrow Evan's DVDs?

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

The problem that I see is that you are beyond "gun intro". You've obviously tried that and now you have a young gun shy dog. STOP worrying about the gun right now. The older the pup gets the more confident it will become. By the time it is ready for the re-introduction, you could have saved enough money to hire a pro much less bought a DVD. Stop rushing things. There are sooooo many things you can work on with a Lab that will build on what you want.

[Garrison]

You can do more damage in one misguided weekend then you would by not training a few months while you get the money together to get the proper knowledge and tools.

[Double Shot Banks]

Now that i am thinking, i realize how right you all are and how wrong i am, i guess i thought i needed to teach him gunfire to continue, although i cannot do some live scenario training i can do most of it without the gun just yet. Should i just follow the Book on what to do next and skip the gunfire part?
Thank you all,
Isaac and Banks

[ezzy333]

Thats what I would do.

Ezzy

[S&J gsp]

If you go back and look at a post I made about soft dogs. I've been in your postion before you are way ahead of your self . I would suggest taking it real slow till you get have his confdince back up before you have a house pet and not a gun dog

[buckeyebowman]

Thats what I would do.

Ezzy

I second that emotion! My buddy has GSP's. Two of them are not gun shy in the least, the third one freaks out! For the life of us we can't figure out why, but she is and we just have to deal with. We took her out to our hunting club outside of hunting season just to let her stretch her legs and get back in the environment without gunfire. But, we miscalculated as there was someone on the rifle or pistol range! Even though the range was all of 3/4 of a mile away she wanted nothing whatsoever to do with that noise! In fact, she couldn't wait to get back to the truck and in her kennel. So, we're back to square one. I guess it's back to getting her bird crazy again, although I did like Rookie's idea with the food.

[sdsujacks]

Now that i am thinking, i realize how right you all are and how wrong i am, i guess i thought i needed to teach him gunfire to continue, although i cannot do some live scenario training i can do most of it without the gun just yet. Should i just follow the Book on what to do next and skip the gunfire part?
Thank you all,
Isaac and Banks

Look through your similar thread about this from a month ago or so. Most people said to hold off on guns for months now. The book is telling you to do gun intro right now because it is assuming your dog has never been shot over before. You have a gun shy dog that does not need to hear guns for quite some time.