Gun Dog Forum

Hello,
Today we got a live pigeon for my lab, banks. We did the same thing we always do with the bumpers or frozen bird and he chased it right away, when he got there he was a little confused, i think he was surprised that it was running and the wings were flapping in his face, it took him a while and he ran to my dad when ran back to the bird, he ran around it a lot, you could tell he wanted it but was confused and winched when it flapped, eventially he got it and brought it to me, although when he did this he killed it :roll:
is there anything i can do to stop this? i dont want to have to use so many pigeons for training if he is going to kill all of them.
Overall he loved it, the 2nd and 3rd throws he was insane and super pumped, i have never seen him so excited even after we were done,
Thanks,
Isaac and Banks

Doesn't sound very old to me. What is it your trying to teach him? T chase down cripple's or what. if you want to train a dog, birds will die. He just kill it or mutilate it?

As I told you in the other thread, the birds may get killed.
Dead birds are part of the training process.......... Get over it and buy more birds.

Click here and read it again viewtopic.php?f=89&t=41210
You know, where I said, "In order to do this, you'll need one dead (thawed) pigeon and one or two live pigeons who might end up dead.

Besides, you are only going to do this a couple or three times ---- Then no more live birds until FF is finished.




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man iam sorry. I don't know what your trying to accomplish either. Your trying to train a pup and he kills a bird and your worried about it. I would rather have one hard mouth with drive than the opposite. Very strange IMO

DonF & Tyler

It's called Live Bird Introduction :roll:

Click here and maybe you'll get it viewtopic.php?f=89&t=41210


.

Doc E wrote:DonF & Tyler

It's called Live Bird Introduction :roll:

Click here and maybe you'll get it


.

I do get it. What I don't get is somebody training a dog worried about buying a few more $5 birds, because their dog killed the first one???

Im not worried, This is my first bird dog, im 15 and i wanted to be sure if him being hard mouthed at this stage was something to worry about, no problem getting more birds, he didn't mutilate it i think he just bit down when it struggled some,
What am i teaching? i am teaching him to drive a car by giving him live birds :roll:
I am introducing live birds to intro into the gunfire, and get him used to.. well live birds!
Thanks for the reassurance on him, not sure if we will get him more birds this weekend (if my plans get canceled) if not we will get him some more retrieve next weekend,
Thanks,
Isaac and Banks

Tyler S wrote: I do get it. What I don't get is somebody training a dog worried about buying a few more $5 birds, because their dog killed the first one???

Sorry, I misread your post.
There will (should) be LOTS of birds sacrificed for this dog during it's lifetime of training.


.

Keep on keepin on brotha. He is a predator and they kill things. Feed the need and let him grow into a confident beast and then mold him into what you want. You need confidence and prey drive at this point.

Tyler S wrote:

Doc E wrote:DonF & Tyler

It's called Live Bird Introduction :roll:

Click here and maybe you'll get it


.

I do get it. What I don't get is somebody training a dog worried about buying a few more $5 birds, because their dog killed the first one???

You worry when you don't have 5 dollars.

Ezzy

Sounds like Banks made some good progress, you just lit the fire, now its going to take a few more birds to really get it going!

Garrison wrote:Sounds like Banks made some good progress, you just lit the fire, now its going to take a few more birds to really get it going!

Ever since then he has looked at me like "wheres the birds?!" i cant wait until we bring more out next time, it totally changed him
Isaac and Banks

Most dogs kill the first live bird or two. Don't worry most get over it and it don't necessarily mean a hard mouth. Cj

Double Shot Banks wrote:This is my first bird dog, im 15 and i wanted to be sure

Wow! That one line suddenly explains everything to me. First of all, let me say how impressed I am that you are so into the training aspect and willing to put in the work with your dog. It also makes it easier for me to address some of your questions since I now know the context from which they are being asked. So, here is some information you may (or may not) find helpful.

The definition of hardmouth is "rendering the game unfit for human consumption." Now, lots of people have lots of interpretations of what that means. For me it means seriously puncturing the skin with the teeth or clamping down so hard the guts are crushed out of the bird. With a young dog making its first few retrieves on live birds, especially pigeons, I often see the dog trying to find a way to carry the bird without the feathers releasing into their mouths. So, sometimes they mouth them hard and remove lots of feathers to get rid of them but won't even kill the bird. Pigeons are a species of dove and doves are notorious for loose feathers. They will generally get over this phase, especially once you transfer to birds with "tighter" feathers. I have one now that does not want to pick up the bird but refuses to let it get away so he jumps on it and kills it, then stands over it. But, when I work him with another pup he will retrieve the bird to me. So, some competition in the near future might help with what my guess is will be a minor issue.

Price of birds: I understand a 15 year old is often on a very limited budget. There are ways (some that at your age you might truly enjoy) to get feral (wild) pigeons for nothing. There is actually a thread going on right now about that called "Pigeons" as well as a Hall of Fame Thread I believe. I will do my best to add a link to a video on how I trap them this weekend.

whoadog wrote: Wow! That one line suddenly explains everything to me. First of all, let me say how impressed I am that you are so into the training aspect and willing to put in the work with your dog. It also makes it easier for me to address some of your questions since I now know the context from which they are being asked. So, here is some information you may (or may not) find helpful.

The definition of hardmouth is "rendering the game unfit for human consumption." Now, lots of people have lots of interpretations of what that means. For me it means seriously puncturing the skin with the teeth or clamping down so hard the guts are crushed out of the bird. With a young dog making its first few retrieves on live birds, especially pigeons, I often see the dog trying to find a way to carry the bird without the feathers releasing into their mouths. So, sometimes they mouth them hard and remove lots of feathers to get rid of them but won't even kill the bird. Pigeons are a species of dove and doves are notorious for loose feathers. They will generally get over this phase, especially once you transfer to birds with "tighter" feathers. I have one now that does not want to pick up the bird but refuses to let it get away so he jumps on it and kills it, then stands over it. But, when I work him with another pup he will retrieve the bird to me. So, some competition in the near future might help with what my guess is will be a minor issue.

Price of birds: I understand a 15 year old is often on a very limited budget. There are ways (some that at your age you might truly enjoy) to get feral (wild) pigeons for nothing. There is actually a thread going on right now about that called "Pigeons" as well as a Hall of Fame Thread I believe. I will do my best to add a link to a video on how I trap them this weekend.

Thank you much, i understand most kids my age would not make such a comitment,
I think my problem with getting pigeons is my neighbor lets me have em for free, but i dont want to just go use them like i own them without paying and i dont want to use "too many" i will talk to him and probably pay him anyway so i dont feel like im a bother using more birds than he thought, he is a dog trainer and has offered help so i dont think he will care, just not the type of person i am :roll:
Thanks,
Isaac and Banks

Thank you much, i understand most kids my age would not make such a comitment,
I think my problem with getting pigeons is my neighbor lets me have em for free, but i dont want to just go use them like i own them without paying and i dont want to use "too many" i will talk to him and probably pay him anyway so i dont feel like im a bother using more birds than he thought, he is a dog trainer and has offered help so i dont think he will care, just not the type of person i am :roll:
Thanks,
Isaac and Banks[/quote]


I would be over at your neighbors house picking up dog crap, feeding birds or whatever you can do to help and learn.

Issac:
You will not be using live pigeons all the time for the training. What you are doing right now is building or built that prey drive and lighting the bird dog fire that will help him succeed in difficult training drill, difficult hunting retrieves, tracking and retrieving wounded ducks or Pheasnts or other birds.

Once you know this pup is keen and driven to find those live birds, I think you will be starting to work on the obedienc( you probably are doing some of this now) and hunting command training once he hits 6 months or so. The other live bird training will happen after your yard work is set.

This is assuming you are using for upland and duck. Also get that pup into the woods to build his confidence and to learn more about his hunting grounds.

Have a set of goals ending with what you want for a final hunting dog.

Make a deal with your neighbor trainer, work for him for pigeons, help him as an assistant so many times a week, as said clean up, feed, water, etc. He will appreciate your effort to help him.

Is this the same dog that in another thread was almost ruined for you guys shooting over it improperly. If so please go to a club and get help. There are many many accomplished flushing guys here that can help you. I appreciate your gusto for wanting to train your dog but you need expert help. If I'm correct you guys have already tried to ruin this pup once. Not trying to be harsh just trying to be real.

Saddle wrote:Is this the same dog that in another thread was almost ruined for you guys shooting over it improperly. If so please go to a club and get help. There are many many accomplished flushing guys here that can help you. I appreciate your gusto for wanting to train your dog but you need expert help. If I'm correct you guys have already tried to ruin this pup once. Not trying to be harsh just trying to be real.

Yes he i believe so, although we did not try to ruin him, we introduced a gun like we have with many dogs, he just is a more shy dog, we will intro the gun after he has had more live birds. We will have atleast 3 people, one with the gun, me with the dog, and my dad throwing the bird,
Please i would not like to argue or be told and instructed what to do
Thanks
Isaac and Banks

Double Shot Banks wrote:Hello,
Today we got a live pigeon for my lab, banks. We did the same thing we always do with the bumpers or frozen bird and he chased it right away, when he got there he was a little confused, i think he was surprised that it was running and the wings were flapping in his face, it took him a while and he ran to my dad when ran back to the bird, he ran around it a lot, you could tell he wanted it but was confused and winched when it flapped, eventially he got it and brought it to me, although when he did this he killed it :roll:
is there anything i can do to stop this? i dont want to have to use so many pigeons for training if he is going to kill all of them.
Overall he loved it, the 2nd and 3rd throws he was insane and super pumped, i have never seen him so excited even after we were done,
Thanks,
Isaac and Banks

.............................
"Please I would not like to argue or be told and instructed what to do." DSB

............................................

????????? Why are you here asking questions then ?

Sharon wrote: ????????? Why are you here asking questions then ?

I dont believe i asked a question on what do do about curing his gun shy...
I did before, but not on this forum, and because of this site i have found the answer to what i was asking
I guess im saying i know what im going to do, and everyone has their opinion, i cant just keep changing my mind when someone else tells me different

I got it.

Sorry but you don't sound like a person who knows what they are doing.

You dog (and you for that matter) could benefit from some professional help that's all I'm saying.

I have ruined some dogs because of my lack of knowledge and my inability to swallow my pride and ask for help from someone who knew more then me. It's a bad feeling and one I hope you don't experience. I'm not a lab guy but there are many GOOD ones here that are and can help you if you are open minded enough to accept the help.

Isaac,

It's great that you are taking on such a big task of training a dog at such a young age. I don't know why everyone on these forums have to be so condescending when you are only looking for help. Obviously you're only looking for advice from people who might have more experience, but you have to realize everyone on these forums 'think' they are professional trainers when in fact many of them probably ship their dogs off to be trained by someone else. They sure do like to bash though, don't they? And for those giving you such a hard time, I guess they forgot the time when they trained their first dog and probably did some things wrong too. I guess people just don't like helping others out anymore like they used to. Sure it would be ideal if everyone sent their dogs to professional trainers, but some people like the gratification of finishing a dog themselves, especially if it's your first one. You gotta start somewhere. Wish I could be more help with the question you brought up, but I don't have enough experience with the lab breed. Don't worry about all the negative comments, keep on reading books from professionals and try to get with someone who has trained labs before just to see if they could give you some good pointers and help you get Banks where you want him to be.

To all of you, I dont know why i need to see a profesional who charges for their service, when i have a father who has trained dogs for hunting his whole life, and a fathers friend/neighbor that has and still trains dogs, if you want to call him a "profesional" you can, he charges for service and trains peoples dogs, although he helps his friends out and usually doenst keep dogs for a period of time unless its ff training or something, people come to him and he helps them, so he trains them AND the dog,
I know im NOT the the best, i have no experience at all, but i dont understand why i need a trainer with a with a big hefty price tag who lives miles away for my dog to learn...
I dont want to "win" this "fight" or anything, i just want you to understand why i am doing what i am so you dont have to go throught the trouble of telling me what to do.
Thank you all, very much for your help.
Isaac and Banks

Double Shot Banks wrote:To all of you, I dont know why i need to see a profesional who charges for their service, when i have a father who has trained dogs for hunting his whole life, and a fathers friend/neighbor that has and still trains dogs, if you want to call him a "profesional" you can, he charges for service and trains peoples dogs, although he helps his friends out and usually doenst keep dogs for a period of time unless its ff training or something, people come to him and he helps them, so he trains them AND the dog,
I know im the the best, i have no experience at all, but i dont understand why i need a trainer with a with a big hefty price tag who lives miles away for my dog to learn...
I dont want to "win" this "fight" or anything, i just want you to understand why i am doing what i am so you dont have to go throught the trouble of telling me what to do.
Thank you all, very much for your help.
Isaac and Banks

edit : very sorry i thought the worst

Isaac, I have been hanging out and reading your posts. Your doing fine. ( Careful with that gun fire stuff when it's time). Like Allin13 said, to many people on all these training forms are to stuck on themselves and their advice. Lots of ways to train a dog, lots of levels of acceptability when it comes to your dog and lots of different opinions. The way I see it, it's great to voice an opinion, give solid advice and encouragement. I hate the slapping and back stabbin but that's just my opinion. Keep up reading and studing on your training. Try to get with some local guys or retriever club if possible. Never hurts to talk to people of like mind and get their perspective on things. Set your training standards and stick to them. Get your pup out as much as possible and in as manny situtations as you can. Keep throwing birds, as many as you can afford and then throw a few more. You will end up with a good dog you can be proud of for sure. Just my opinion. Don

Sharon wrote:

Double Shot Banks wrote:To all of you, I dont know why i need to see a profesional who charges for their service, when i have a father who has trained dogs for hunting his whole life, and a fathers friend/neighbor that has and still trains dogs, if you want to call him a "profesional" you can, he charges for service and trains peoples dogs, although he helps his friends out and usually doenst keep dogs for a period of time unless its ff training or something, people come to him and he helps them, so he trains them AND the dog,
I know im the the best, i have no experience at all, but i dont understand why i need a trainer with a with a big hefty price tag who lives miles away for my dog to learn...
I dont want to "win" this "fight" or anything, i just want you to understand why i am doing what i am so you dont have to go throught the trouble of telling me what to do.
Thank you all, very much for your help.
Isaac and Banks

Wow . That is the most arrogant statement I've ever read on here. Wow. :roll:

This is embarrasing, i changed it, i know im NOT the best, sorry

Sharon wrote:

Double Shot Banks wrote:To all of you, I dont know why i need to see a profesional who charges for their service, when i have a father who has trained dogs for hunting his whole life, and a fathers friend/neighbor that has and still trains dogs, if you want to call him a "profesional" you can, he charges for service and trains peoples dogs, although he helps his friends out and usually doenst keep dogs for a period of time unless its ff training or something, people come to him and he helps them, so he trains them AND the dog,
I know im the the best, i have no experience at all, but i dont understand why i need a trainer with a with a big hefty price tag who lives miles away for my dog to learn...
I dont want to "win" this "fight" or anything, i just want you to understand why i am doing what i am so you dont have to go throught the trouble of telling me what to do.
Thank you all, very much for your help.
Isaac and Banks

Wow . That is the most arrogant statement I've ever read on here. Wow. :roll:

Pretty sure he meant to say he knows he's "not" the best. I'm sure it was an innocent typo.

Your enthusiam for getting your dog trained is great and I have actually enjoyed reading your posts. My advice, for what it is worth, is to take a big breath, relax and slow down a bit. It just seams like you are going in a few different directions all at once without any clarity about what you are trying to accomplish with what you are doing. I would sit down with a piece of paper and write yourself out a plan. Figure out what you need to work on, why you need to work on it, how you are going to do it and when does it need to be done. Then take everything you want to do and slow it down a bit and adjust as necessary. If you know why you are doing something and take the time to accomplish it correctly, you and your dog will be just fine.

Double Shot Banks wrote:

Sharon wrote:

Double Shot Banks wrote:To all of you, I dont know why i need to see a profesional who charges for their service, when i have a father who has trained dogs for hunting his whole life, and a fathers friend/neighbor that has and still trains dogs, if you want to call him a "profesional" you can, he charges for service and trains peoples dogs, although he helps his friends out and usually doenst keep dogs for a period of time unless its ff training or something, people come to him and he helps them, so he trains them AND the dog,
I know im the the best, i have no experience at all, but i dont understand why i need a trainer with a with a big hefty price tag who lives miles away for my dog to learn...
I dont want to "win" this "fight" or anything, i just want you to understand why i am doing what i am so you dont have to go throught the trouble of telling me what to do.
Thank you all, very much for your help.
Isaac and Banks

Wow . That is the most arrogant statement I've ever read on here. Wow. :roll:

This is embarrasing, i changed it, i know im NOT the best, sorry

I'm very sorry i thought the worst.

Double Shot Banks wrote:Please i would not like to argue
or be told and instructed what to do

Isaac and Banks

:roll:



.

This Post has done exactly what i didnt want it to, i appreciate all of you and your advice, but i think it has gotten off topic, i wont be doing any gun intro for quite a while, and i believe most other problems are solved,
Thanks
Isaac and Banks

Issac: I did missed where you said your Dad has trained dogs etc. You are doing just fine but you need to set your self and pup up for sucess and it needs to be structured. That way the confusion level is minimized. You have a plan and goals. You will get there just keep it simple and always end your work on a good note.

The live bird intro is fine, I do similar. But don't over do it. Don't let him destroy the birds, don't yank them from him make him giving it to you a good thing not a possesive thing.

Enjoy, your training, with pup and Dad.
If help is needed or advise don't let some one keep you from doing so.

Don't let them get to you bud. We're all just jealous of your youth. I think it's great that you're taking on this responsibility at 15. If I had done so at that age I'm pretty sure my dog would've ended up a complete nut case. Banks is doing just fine and you're on the right track. Don't worry about the hard mouth, that can be fix later if need be. Sounds like you learned your lesson with the gun intro and are doing the correct thing going forward. Keep asking questions, take the advice from the experienced trainers and having fun.

DSB, if it makes you feel any better, I'm facing a similar battle with a dog right now. It's not a mild case either so it will literally be a battle. You are currently on a good path so stick with it.

You are doing fine and the quesion u asked was a perfectly good question. Some guys here have a ton of resources when it comes to training their dogs. Some like you and I are limited on resources and asking how one can save their pigeons for repeated use, is a perfectly good question IMHO. Now, what I got from reading the responses is that: You really cant do much particularly with a pup. Good. That IS the answer you were looking for. Thats why we come here: The thread is called Training and people come here to ask questions. Some are more experienced and some are less. To some, some questions might seem "stupid". Well, then dont answer them if thats how you feel. But dont underestimate how little some might know about training a dog.
I am glad to see that at this young you are so much into training your own dog and that you use the internet to get your questions answered. When I was your age, all I could find was a couple of books at the local library. That was it. Now your resources are endless. Use them to your advantage.
I am sure you're going to have a great dog for this fall.