Attention Span of a Puppy

[sean english]

I am doing some reading/watching videos on basic training of a dog. All of them, are using an adult dog to show how the work is done.
I have a three month old springer. (She is doing great for her age. I have no complain) When I go to teach her a new command (heel for example) her attention is all over the place. I try to do it in a low distraction environment and I do understand that a 3 month old puppy is like a 3 year old child.
In all the videos and books, I see that they are working with an adult dog which is pretty much attentive to the trainer (keeps an eye on the trainer even if its by using tidbits. Puppy is not like that. Should I not be trying to teach her these complex commands like heel? (I know the answer is no. But want your input)
Do dog trainers (like the ones I see in the clips and books) leave these commands till the pup is over its puppiness? I doubt that.
What do you recommend? I know that it takes time and we are taking one step (one puppy step) at a time. But was wondering what you folks think.
So far, I have trained her to come to my signals (whisle and Here command), she is learning to sit. I just started on Stay and am working on heel little by little. But particularly on teaching the heel command, I dont have her attention (she does not look at me) But again: We just started this command this week. I will take my time.
Any input is appreciated.

[Gertie]

I just got my first upland dog about a year and a half ago so I'm certainly no expert but I got a lot of good advice from people who know what they're doing and I was advised to teach the pup her name and 'here' and how to walk nicely on a leash the first 6 months and that's it. I think I did bird introduction the first few months as well. Mostly I took her out and let her explore, build confidence, meet lots of people and dogs (after vaccination series of course) and just become a well rounded pup that is interested and confident in her surroundings. After 6 months I started heel and introduced the gun. I was really excited to jump into training but am really glad I waited a while and let the pup develop before I moved into formal training. Of course your dog is a flushing breed and I know absolutely nothing about their training but imagine that flushing puppies and pointing puppies still act a lot alike. Anyway, I'm sure you'll get some good advice. Lots of knowledgable folks on the forum. Good luck with your pup and have fun!

[Doc E]

Take a look at the Smartwork -- Puppy DVD.
It shows puppy stuff with a puppy.



.

[whoadog]

Rule of thumb is about one minute per month of age. In other words, a training session for a 3 month old pup is only about 3 minutes.

[buckeyebowman]

You gotta let a pup be a pup, it will end up a more well adjusted dog in the long run. Trying to train too early is like trying to teach calculus to a second grader. At 3 mos. about the only "training" I did was what you would normally do with a pup that age around the house and yard. I think I did more good just playing with him and getting him to imprint on me. I did also take out in a "hunting" environment, with a little bit of a twist. There's a local vocational school with weed fields all around and a couple of farms on adjoining properties. Between the end of the parking lot and the weeds was a 50 yard wide strip of mown grass about 250 yards long and we'd just walk that strip. At first he'd just lark about, but then I noticed him start to cast back and forth in front of me in a very natural way. I didn't have to teach him this, it was just built in to his DNA. At first the really high weeds were intimidating for the pup, but after a while I could tell that he wanted to start to explore them. So I took him to a place where the weeds weren't too thick (also, no briers) and we started walking there. As he grew and got stronger we could explore thicker cover. This was a gradual, natural way to bold him up. Then, I introduced him to pheasant wings, retrieving, and finally gunfire. He turned out our to be a wonderful hunter and companion.

[whoadog]

Trying to train too early is like trying to teach calculus to a second grader. At 3 mos. about the only "training" I did was what you would normally do with a pup that age around the house and yard.

I respectfully disagree. While my real specialty is pointing breeds, I know that if training sessions are thoughtfully built around play with little or no force involved and in the proper amount, very complex commands can be introduced at a very early age with excellent results in a relatively short period of time.

You gotta let a pup be a pup,

I agree with this statement. But, what does it really mean? IMO, it means that your teaching methods must fit with where the dog is headed and must be appropriate to its age and development. Again, IMO, most neophyte dog trainers read this quote and think "I don't need to train until the dog is a year old." And once again, this is my opinion, but I believe nothing could be further from the truth. Dogs in the wild (foxes, coyotes, wolves, etc.) begin learning to hunt the day they emerge from the den and are accomplished hunters by the time they are a year old. Why, then, do we as trainers tend to think our hunting companions should not be taught on a similar time frame and at a similar pace? At 3 months of age I would expect a flushing dog to know recall (solidly), "sit" (but not for any length of time) and "kennel" at a bare minimum. I would most likely have already introduced heel and started retrieving games. Pup would know that spending time with me was fun but would also recognize my status as alpha.

[Neil]

Rule of thumb is about one minute per month of age. In other words, a training session for a 3 month old pup is only about 3 minutes.

I didn't know that but agree up to 5 months, where it levels off.

I rarely spend more than 5 minutes at a time in formal training. As they get older the time between sessions gets smaller.

[whoadog]

I rarely spend more than 5 minutes at a time in formal training. As they get older the time between sessions gets smaller.

I agree that several short 3-5 minute formal training sessions are much more productive than one 20 session at any age. I never exceed 10 minutes on any yard training session. There is a difference when I take them for walks however. I may be in the field for up to an hour with a very young dog. Usually this is not training though. It is allowing the "pup to be a pup" as buckeye said. I keep my mouth shut and let the dog run. The only command I use at this time is recall and I use it only when absolutely necessary to maintain contact with the dog. A well socialized pup will usually maintain contact on their own until they are "teenagers". When that time comes, I try to use small fields with good barriers so I don't need to be the pup's "inhibition". They can run freely with the terrain controlling their movement.

But, I specialize in pointing breeds with less emphasis on hunting within gun range than Sean's Springer. I will defer to any flushing people on any extra control deemed necessary in a young dog.

[Rookie]

I am doing some reading/watching videos on basic training of a dog. All of them, are using an adult dog to show how the work is done.
I have a three month old springer. (She is doing great for her age. I have no complain) When I go to teach her a new command (heel for example) her attention is all over the place. I try to do it in a low distraction environment and I do understand that a 3 month old puppy is like a 3 year old child.
In all the videos and books, I see that they are working with an adult dog which is pretty much attentive to the trainer (keeps an eye on the trainer even if its by using tidbits. Puppy is not like that. Should I not be trying to teach her these complex commands like heel? (I know the answer is no. But want your input)
Do dog trainers (like the ones I see in the clips and books) leave these commands till the pup is over its puppiness? I doubt that.
What do you recommend? I know that it takes time and we are taking one step (one puppy step) at a time. But was wondering what you folks think.
So far, I have trained her to come to my signals (whisle and Here command), she is learning to sit. I just started on Stay and am working on heel little by little. But particularly on teaching the heel command, I dont have her attention (she does not look at me) But again: We just started this command this week. I will take my time.
Any input is appreciated.

You might consider "Training a Retriever Puppy" by Bill Hillmann. It's a great start for a dog. It shows him training a puppy for 26 sessions starting around 10 weeks old and covering about 2-3 months. (so training a few times a week by my bad math) It moves slow but training often does...and there is no reason you can't transition into another formal program.

Having said that it sounds as though your dog is doing well in my humble opinion.

[sean english]

I am doing some reading/watching videos on basic training of a dog. All of them, are using an adult dog to show how the work is done.
I have a three month old springer. (She is doing great for her age. I have no complain) When I go to teach her a new command (heel for example) her attention is all over the place. I try to do it in a low distraction environment and I do understand that a 3 month old puppy is like a 3 year old child.
In all the videos and books, I see that they are working with an adult dog which is pretty much attentive to the trainer (keeps an eye on the trainer even if its by using tidbits. Puppy is not like that. Should I not be trying to teach her these complex commands like heel? (I know the answer is no. But want your input)
Do dog trainers (like the ones I see in the clips and books) leave these commands till the pup is over its puppiness? I doubt that.
What do you recommend? I know that it takes time and we are taking one step (one puppy step) at a time. But was wondering what you folks think.
So far, I have trained her to come to my signals (whisle and Here command), she is learning to sit. I just started on Stay and am working on heel little by little. But particularly on teaching the heel command, I dont have her attention (she does not look at me) But again: We just started this command this week. I will take my time.
Any input is appreciated.

You might consider "Training a Retriever Puppy" by Bill Hillmann. It's a great start for a dog. It shows him training a puppy for 26 sessions starting around 10 weeks old and covering about 2-3 months. (so training a few times a week by my bad math) It moves slow but training often does...and there is no reason you can't transition into another formal program.

Having said that it sounds as though your dog is doing well in my humble opinion.

Thanks. I will look into that. She is doing well.
We did our lesson today and she sat, stayed (not for 45 minutes obviously since we are at day 3) came to my whistle and retrieved. Just moving forward slowly. Improvement. Not perfection.

[buckeyebowman]

Trying to train too early is like trying to teach calculus to a second grader. At 3 mos. about the only "training" I did was what you would normally do with a pup that age around the house and yard.

I respectfully disagree. While my real specialty is pointing breeds, I know that if training sessions are thoughtfully built around play with little or no force involved and in the proper amount, very complex commands can be introduced at a very early age with excellent results in a relatively short period of time.

You gotta let a pup be a pup,

I agree with this statement. But, what does it really mean? IMO, it means that your teaching methods must fit with where the dog is headed and must be appropriate to its age and development. Again, IMO, most neophyte dog trainers read this quote and think "I don't need to train until the dog is a year old." And once again, this is my opinion, but I believe nothing could be further from the truth. Dogs in the wild (foxes, coyotes, wolves, etc.) begin learning to hunt the day they emerge from the den and are accomplished hunters by the time they are a year old. Why, then, do we as trainers tend to think our hunting companions should not be taught on a similar time frame and at a similar pace? At 3 months of age I would expect a flushing dog to know recall (solidly), "sit" (but not for any length of time) and "kennel" at a bare minimum. I would most likely have already introduced heel and started retrieving games. Pup would know that spending time with me was fun but would also recognize my status as alpha.

Perhaps I didn't explain my position in enough detail, but I felt I was being a little long winded already. If one is really involved with their pup they are, whether consciously or unconsciously, constantly training! By the time my pup was 4 months old I had taught him to come, sit, stay, heel (which in my boneheaded naivete first came out of my mouth as "stay close" when we were about to cross a road, but it worked so I stuck with it), and he was beginning to understand "fetch"!

As far as neophyte dog trainers go, I've seen far too many of them who have read a book and expect that "when I do such and such the dog shall do so and so", and don't understand why it doesn't work. In no way do I think you should allow a dog to run " hog wild and simple" for a year before beginning training. Training starts at day one, but it has to include plenty of time for play as well. As you mentioned, fox, coyote, and wolf pups are learning to hunt from day one, but much of that learning is embedded in play! I've had dog owners, notably not owners of hunting breeds, tell me that I should never let the pup get on top of me while playing. They say that it signals to the dog that it can dominate me. What a load of bullcrap! Yes, we'd play together, but playtime always ended with no doubt in anybody's mind about about who the alpha male was! But, the end result was, we'd played together! And we bonded.

What I'm really referring to here is the mindset of some folk who set out to train a bird dog with no appreciation of what puppyhood entails. In the words of the Joker, why "so serious"!

[whoadog]

If one is really involved with their pup they are, whether consciously or unconsciously, constantly training!

I absolutely agree.

In the words of the Joker, why "so serious"!

Not so serious, just participating. I also find that by putting these thoughts forward I clarify my own understanding and often learn from the responses of others.

What I'm really referring to here is the mindset of some folk who set out to train a bird dog with no appreciation of what puppyhood entails.

What, in your opinion, does puppyhood entail?

[buckeyebowman]

What, in your opinion, does puppyhood entail?

Play, socialization, and learning, with learning through play and socialization being the best of all possible worlds. All young mammals play to some extent, and the "smarter" the mammal the more complex the play activity will be. When fox, coyote, wolf, or dog pups play they're just having fun, but they are also learning skills and behaviors that will be employed by the serious adult canine.

Uh oh! There's that word serious again. BTW, the Joker quote wasn't meant specifically for you. What I had in mind when I wrote that was some people that I've encountered who, when engaged in training a pup, just seemed so "bleep" grim about it! I understand that they're trying to accomplish something with the pup, but I think pups pick up on a negative attitude and it works against the training. I had an absolute blast training mine, and even when it did some goofy, dumb, puppy thing, I just laughed it off, loved him up, and tried again.

Socialization also involves discipline. The pup must learn what it cannot do. Mine house trained very easily but it also knew that it was not allowed on the furniture, not allowed to beg at the table, not allowed to jump on people, and it only received it's food from it's bowl, never from my hand or my plate. Mistakes were corrected firmly, but gently, and proper behavior was rewarded with affection and play.

Uh oh! There's that word play again. I seriously believe that a training regimen for a pup must include a healthy amount of play. Since this thread started out as what the attention span of a puppy might be, consider what pups do more of other than sleep. Play! I played with my dog incessantly, he bonded to me, and thus was more willing to accept instruction because he wished to please me. He wished to please me because doing that made good things happen for him. It's been said often on this forum that a dog will always act in it's own self interest. The trick is getting the dog's self interest to align with ours.

[Trekmoor]

I train quite a lot of spaniels. At 3 months old I expect most of them to have the attention span of a peanut. I have found that the pups that "train" very easily at that age often lack drive later on in training. All I try for is a very basic "run - in and grab it" sort of retrieve, the foundations of a recall all done for fun and using fun to gain the recall and the beginnings of the sit command . I do quite a lot of "mixing and matching" with the sit command (all done within 2-6 feet from me.) I find the hand-signal is the most important part of sit training. The hand signal is the only "constant" among the vocal "sits" and the whistled "sits." Fortunately the hand signal sit command is usually a doddle to train without using any compulsion. I use both voice and whistle alternately to gain the sit. This does not usually confuse a pup if the hand signal remains the same.

I do not teach even elementary heelwork at 3 months old. A pup from one of the hunting breeds will be about 6 - 10 months old before I even begin to teach that. For the average puppy ,heelwork isn't much fun ..... it contains a bit too much "MUST do it."

Bill T.

[whoadog]

Play, socialization, and learning, with learning through play and socialization being the best of all possible worlds.

I think you and I may be much closer in our approach than our writing styles indicate. I never really thought about the way I communicate with the written word before. I can see so clearly in my mind what I am trying to say but I may need to re-think how I write it.

With puppies, l lay all the foundation for advanced training with play. In my experience, concepts that are introduced in a fun, light way can be learned at a very early age and as the pup matures, transferred to the field and reinforced with discipline. I can't remember who said it but one of my favorite quotes is "a good leader gets people to do things they don't want to do because they think they want to do it." That's the principal I try to take with young pups. So, puppyhood, for me, is not the absence of training, rather it is age appropriate training. Pup does what I tell him to because he wants to, not because I am telling him to.

[buckeyebowman]

Play, socialization, and learning, with learning through play and socialization being the best of all possible worlds.

I think you and I may be much closer in our approach than our writing styles indicate. I never really thought about the way I communicate with the written word before. I can see so clearly in my mind what I am trying to say but I may need to re-think how I write it.

With puppies, l lay all the foundation for advanced training with play. In my experience, concepts that are introduced in a fun, light way can be learned at a very early age and as the pup matures, transferred to the field and reinforced with discipline. I can't remember who said it but one of my favorite quotes is "a good leader gets people to do things they don't want to do because they think they want to do it." That's the principal I try to take with young pups. So, puppyhood, for me, is not the absence of training, rather it is age appropriate training. Pup does what I tell him to because he wants to, not because I am telling him to.

No sweat! It only took me, what, 3 or 4 tries to get my thoughts down in a clear and cogent manner! When in college, I had a Communications prof who wanted me to consider journalism as a career. You know what I learned most in her class? That good writing is "bleep" hard work! Although I love communicating in forums (fora?), I don't know that I possess the self discipline to crank out an essay let alone a whole book.

Couldn't have said it better myself! "Age appropriate training" is absolutely the perfect phrase to express the idea.

[sean english]

Buckeye
What kind of double have you got? English stock Verona by any chance?

[4dabirds]

I agree a hundred percent with whoa dog. Since dogs learn by association, the sooner you create a positive association with what you expect to be a future command, the better it is for the dog. As a pup the dog is absorbing every little cue you are putting out there wether they are intentional or not. A good example of positive association, is feeding the dog on a place board. This puts no pressure on the dog . As the dog stands on the board it is making the association that the board is a good place as well as standing in one place is rewardable. Move the board to the door and the dog learns stepping on the board gets it outside, another reward. This method gets the dog offering the behavior so you can shape the behavior of what will be the whoa command later on.

[buckeyebowman]

Buckeye
What kind of double have you got? English stock Verona by any chance?

Oh, wow! How I wish that was my gun! That gun belongs to a friend of mine and the pic was taken opening day of pheasant season at our club. At least the pheasant was mine! It's a Remington 1894, D grade, I believe. Grades ran from A, standard field gun, to E, top of the line. I believe it's American Walnut and has Damascus barrels. It is just gorgeous! He makes some side money dealing in classic American doubles on Gunbroker.com, Gunsamerica.com, and Gunsinternational.com. Ever hear of Syracuse Gun Works? He has a couple of them, and they are incredible works of art. Functionality is fine, but I'm getting real itchy to have him get me one of the "pretty" guns.