Punishment Methodologies

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amconnor
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Punishment Methodologies

Post by amconnor » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:50 pm

Hi guys, currently I have a 16-week-old female wiemaranor who has been progressing very well in training. This is the first pup I have owned and trained so I am really trying to get as much wisdom as I can from people who have walked the same path I am!

I have been following Hickox’s program, and my pup (Sadie) has been progressing VERY well. She has had bird introduction, and is doing excellent on her commands. I plan on starting gun introduction in the coming weeks, which I will take very slow because she seems to be a little skittish around noise already. One of the things I really appreciated about Hickox was his positive training style. So far all of my training with my puppy has been very positive, and I would like to keep it as positive as possible. I want to make it clear that when in the field I don’t discipline, and as people like to say I “let the pup be a pup”. However I am trying to figure out how punishment will fit into my training in two places.

First, Hickox says that once the dog is obeying a command at %80 it is ready for the e-collar. My pup is young, and I am somewhat apprehensive to introduce the collar now. I should say her level of understanding seems to show that she is ready? For instance on my kennel command I can say it from anywhere in the house and she will go in. On her “wait” command (I use wait instead of whoa) I can say it anytime while she is walking sniffing, or even running and she freezes. I can walk around her, throw things by her, and she obeys. I am having trouble here because she seems to be a very smart obedient dog, but is still young and immature in many ways. What do you guys think about the collar right now?

The second thing I am wondering is how to enforce boundaries in the house. My wife and I do not let her on the couch, sniff at the tops of tables, and jump on people (I know we are so mean!). These are our 3 big no-no’s in the house. The dog now knows that these things are off limits, but once and a while she decides she really doesn’t care ☺. Is there a positive way to enforce these things? Also, when what she does warrants punishment, I would be interested to know what you all do to your puppies when they do break the rules (even though no puppy would every break the rules! :roll: ).
Thanks for your help guys; I think this will be an interesting conversation.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Sharon » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:50 pm

Every dog and child responds to a different consequence. I have one dog , who only needs a word of annoyance to stop an unacceptable behaviour. Find out what your dog needs and go with that. Similar to using an e-collar - no more than is needed.
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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:12 pm

Sharon has it exactly right.

Some dogs only need a harsh word, some need a shake, some need an ear tug. It really depends. Use what is necessary to get though to the dog. Sometimes a different approach is the right corrective action.

And it is correction, not punishment. I am not being pedantic or Politically Correct here. It is a frame of mind thing.

I just want to stress that what we do with our dogs is for the most part, behavior modification training and the concept of punishment has no place in that. Corrections and corrective actions -in whatever form is necessary- are what we should be applying.

Patience(my personal downfall), persistence and a consistent set of boundaries.

Have fun with your youngster.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Duckdon » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:40 pm

Some good advice here..... I think lots of dogs are collar ready at about 16 weeks, on the very basic commands, if you know how to use a collar. Learning to use a collar on a young pup is maybe not a good idea so you be the judge. Don

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Doc E » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:59 pm

IMO, the only time a dog needs "punishment" is if it PURPOSLY disobeys you.


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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:08 pm

It was well documented back a few years that the best training was 70% positive and 30% negative for the best results for pups as well as children. Of course, now they have decided you should never punish and we can see how that has worked out. Any living animal needs to experience punishment during the growing up years if they are ever going to be able to handle it when mature. Mother dogs know that as well as most other mothers except for our enlighten standard of advoiding any meaningful correction of bad behavior. When the puppy bite slap it or do some other type of action that lets the pup know it shouldn't do that again. Same with field work, do everything you can to make it positive but intentional bad behavior can and should be penalized. Just do it calmly and within reason and there should be no bad repercussions but remember what Sharon said, every pup and child is differnt so each need any punishment dealt out in a manor that fits you dog.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by brianb » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:16 pm

Spray bottle with water is the most effective " punishment " for counter cruising, jumping and other in house shenanigans.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by amconnor » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:11 am

Great stuff so far guys. I tried to make it clear on my OP, but my frame of mind is certainly positive and reinforcing. I have been very good about being patient and positive with my pup.

I am more curious on some different methodologies for correction for pups. Someone here has mentioned the spray bottle, is that really effective? What are some other methods, and which do you all feel is most effective?

The other thing I am hearing is that Sadie could very well be ready for the collar. I know it is hard to say indefinitely because all dogs are different. It is encouraging for me to know people do collar condition this early.

Thanks for all the replies so far guys! :D

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:38 pm

Like Doc said, my view is if the dog knows the expectations and chooses to disobey anyway, punishment is in order. Severity of punishment is simply how much it takes to get the behavior to stop completely. Some dogs need a painful shock of the ecollar to dissuade them from breaking the rules, others simply need a loud NO! As for the ecollar, I'd definitely have the dog wearing it a lot and getting used to it because the time for ecollar use is probably fast approaching. I wouldn't be surprised if your pup starts testing the boundaries more and more since there hasn't been a ton of negative reinforcement. I agree with Ezzy as well that as long as the majority of the time training is fun and exciting, the few times negative stimulation is used can result in fast learning. It's hard to tell from your post how much whoa training you've been doing but at this age I would keep those session short and positive for a few more weeks before doing too much negative stim. Don't test the pups ability to stand for drawn out periods of time yet as that is still a form of pressure. I think whoaing the pup when its near you and for brief periods, or while it waits for food is good way to instill the expectations associated with the command without putting unnecessary pressure on the young pup. Basic ob in the house is a good place to start introducing more severe punishments. Sounds like you're reading your dog carefully so at the end of the day, you'll probably know the best pace for the pup.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Allin13 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:18 pm

+1 on the spray bottle. And try to do it where they dont see you do it. Dont even say no, just spray them then they think the action caused them to get the spray and your not the bad guy!

I have a pup now that wants to chew on computer wire and ever time she does it give her a spray and she comes and jumps on my lap to save her. So now im the safe zone!

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by buckeyebowman » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:21 pm

Doc E wrote:IMO, the only time a dog needs "punishment" is if it PURPOSLY disobeys you.


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BAZINGA!! If you're paying attention you can tell when your dog says, basically, "F you, I'm going to do what I want do to do!" That's when it needs to get blasted! This doesn't mean that I think you should be stoning your dog full time. But, when it screws up, it needs to know that it screwed up! When I started out i didn't have whistles or E-collars or any of this modern junk. All I had was me and my voice. It's amazing how perceptive dogs are to tone of voice!

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by 4dabirds » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:35 am

I think you are missing a big part of the picture in that you state punishment as your descriptive word. When training properly with the e-collar the dog is trained to avoid the correction by complying to the command. This is not punishment. This is teaching the dog that non compliance has a negative effect while compliance has a positive one. Dogs perceive their environment/ actions as safe or dangerous , Rewardable or non rewardable. The greater the motivation the greater the desire to respond negatively or positively. When the dog fully understands a command and sees it as rewardable the greater the dogs desire to comply is. The collar is there to make it bomb proof under distraction. When a dog exhibits an unwanted behavior a correction needs to be perceived by the dog as the cause of the correction. At times making this association, when a dog is not responding to a trained behavior, can be hit or miss. Sometimes even a negative response to an unwanted behavior will be perceived by the dog as attention and may exacerbate the behavior. This is why the behavior should always be trained first , then the correction is introduced. For responses to unwanted untrained behaviors such as jumping up, it is better to train an alternate behavior that is rewardable. If the dog is jumping up on people teach the dog sit to greet . If you ignore the jumping and reward the sit the jumping will extinguish and the sit will become the rewardable behavior in the dogs mind. You could just use whoa as the alternate behavior if you do not want to teach sit or any other behavior you chose. Try not to view the dogs world as good or bad , view it as rewardable and non rewardable . Good luck with the dog .

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:57 am

I think in the language most of us use rewardable is positive and not rewardable is negative behavior. In other words you are saying the same thing everyone else is saying but making a long explanation to say it. Just a long way of saying what we have done for years, praise or some other type of reward when they do what we want and verbal or physical punishment of some type when they do something we don't want. How much and when is what we call training, but most don'r spend the time to try to explain what the dog is thinking because we don't know and it makes little difference in the training. Just a different explanation with the same results.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by 4dabirds » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:26 pm

Actually Ezzie I am making a distinction between punishment and correction. Punishment would rely on the dog having a sense of morality. Since dogs do not have this sense it is difficult for the dog to make a correlation between the behavior as you see it and the punishment as it is given .The dog learns by association. To give an example , the dog comes to you and you hit the dog for biting. The dog has to decipher wether it is safe to bite you, come to you ,enter the room you are in . The dog is working through the cues to determine wether this activity is safe and or rewardable. With enough repetition the dog will eventually learn what behavior has reaped the correction. The problem with this is that what you perceive as a punishment may be perceived by the dog as attention which is what the dog is after in the first place. Looking at it as punishment leads the owner to believe that the dog is bad when it is only doing what is natural, using its mouth to investigate stuff. If the dog is perceived as bad then that can only lead to anger and more punishment. Correction on the other hand relies on the dog understanding a behavior well enough to know that non compliance caused the negative response. If the dog is truly trained in a behavior it is motivated to perform and the reward for compliance vs the correction are what guarantees a proper outcome. This also relies on the motivation of the dog. Is the dog more motivated to heel when there is another dog present or will it break. The more rewardable heel has been perceived as trained vs the correction, the greater the chance we have of compliance. The dog does not chase other dogs because it is bad, it does it because it is natural.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Sharon » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:12 pm

"Dogs react to situations. They do not think ahead or plan out bad deeds; therefore it is not necessary and even cruel to punish a dog. Dogs need corrections at the time of the deed, not punishments. " quote

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:25 pm

Sharon wrote:"Dogs react to situations. They do not think ahead or plan out bad deeds; therefore it is not necessary and even cruel to punish a dog. Dogs need corrections at the time of the deed, not punishments. " quote

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/pu ... ection.htm
Right on and corrections will be percieved as punishment by the dog who has no idea how we think or that we just call it correction. The problem with this whole theory we keep refering to the dog thinking while we are saying a dog can't think. In truth our actions are much the same no matter how much effort we make to explain how a dog thinks or doesn't think. Makes me wonder who found out how a dog thinks, reacts, or whatever we want to call it. I see little difference in training today from a few years ago but I hear a few people try to explain what the dog is doing or thinking. We have known for years a dog will learn from repetition and or association and have found through experience what works and what doesn't. We have to give ques(cues) now when a few years ago we knew a dog responded to your body language and tone of voice more than from what you said. And we didn't even have a college degree. Now we need to understand the dog is place oriented where before we knew a dog often forgot his training when in a new place probably because there were different surrounding that kept his attention from what he had learned in a controlled environment. And truth is the same things interfere with our performance just like it does a dog and it isn't unigue to just one animal and has little to do with whether it can think or not.

Probably nothing wrong with changing the dialogue as long as we understand it changes little in our training protocol that has been quite successful and has progressed at a very slow pace in a few areas as we learn a new method of doing what we have been doing. And we don't have to try and put it into dog language since that does nothing for the dog but makes us feel better. If I slap a pup for biting my hand or treat the dog when it doesn't is just two ways of saying we are doing something different when in actuallity we are not. In both cases we are telling the pup it is a lot more pleasant to not bite and he will get the message much quicker from a little negative act(slap) as it will from a positive(treat). Both will work and we are doing the same thing as I said, it is more fun not to bite. And that is all the pup or us need to understand.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Winchey » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:53 pm

I think it is important to know how dogs think Ezzy. It is much easier to train a dog if you understand it. If you understand the theory it is much easier to understand why what you are doing is or is not working and you can adjust accordingly.

I for one want to know the theory behind a step by step guide.

Dogs do think, just like people do, however they do like certain things far more or less than we do, and are not capable of nearly as complex thought or problem solving as we are due to lack of intelligence.

Even if we already have the best way down pat, I want to know why and how it works. Some people are happy to turn a key and have their car start, some people want to know why it starts.

You seem against learning about animal behaviour because people could train them well before we started talking about it. This baffles me.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:53 pm

...sometimes I think the measure of a dog trainer can be quantified in their delivery in terms of communication they should be more familiar or learned with, such as readin and writin American. An advanced behaviorist could cypher some of the nuances in these posts I would imagine someone earlier on in their education could feel confused and misdirected. I think George's methods are very good and used comprehensively (and this is only an opinion) are perhaps the best way to train a dog from the early stages through completion. However, they require a strong commitment and they are complex to apply to pointing dog training.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Sharon » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:57 pm

Winchey wrote:I think it is important to know how dogs think Ezzy. It is much easier to train a dog if you understand it. If you understand the theory it is much easier to understand why what you are doing is or is not working and you can adjust accordingly.

I for one want to know the theory behind a step by step guide.

Dogs do think, just like people do, however they do like certain things far more or less than we do, and are not capable of nearly as complex thought or problem solving as we are due to lack of intelligence.

Even if we already have the best way down pat, I want to know why and how it works. Some people are happy to turn a key and have their car start, some people want to know why it starts.

You seem against learning about animal behaviour because people could train them well before we started talking about it. This baffles me.

Sorry, but not true.
They can't plan, nor concepualize,nor visualize, and they can't see situations from others point of view etc . etc. We know that: They respond to positive and negative responses .They also learn from experience by responding to environmental cues, the presence or absence of certain stimuli, including human behavioral cues.
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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Winchey » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:14 pm

I disagree. They just cannot do it to the degree we plan and conceptualize.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:54 pm

Winchey wrote:I think it is important to know how dogs think Ezzy. It is much easier to train a dog if you understand it. If you understand the theory it is much easier to understand why what you are doing is or is not working and you can adjust accordingly.

I for one want to know the theory behind a step by step guide.

Dogs do think, just like people do, however they do like certain things far more or less than we do, and are not capable of nearly as complex thought or problem solving as we are due to lack of intelligence.

Even if we already have the best way down pat, I want to know why and how it works. Some people are happy to turn a key and have their car start, some people want to know why it starts.

You seem against learning about animal behaviour because people could train them well before we started talking about it. This baffles me.
I was agreeing with your post till you got down to the last sentence and you sure painted that with a broad brush. I too would like to know what makes dogs and other animal click but I don't think we know how they think or if they think. Most experts say they don't but it sure does seem like they do at times. But I think it is thought that if an animal thinks then it can solve problems and use tools. We know an animal can learn but I doubt if it thinks if used as we commonly do. Good topic to discuss as long as we don't try to paint someone into a corner because of a thought they might have that is different than our own.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by SCT » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:56 pm

Dogs think "in the now", they have great intelligence in doing the things they were designed to do. We could debate about their self awareness until the cows come home. They are intelligent beings, they just don't reason, at least not in the same sense we do. Just like other non-human species.

I once saw a video of elephants crossing a river and a real small youngster couldn't make it up the steep sides of the banks and would surely drown. Its mother quickly dug a path in the mud and he/she crawled up it and survived that trauma. Was she reasoning, or was it intelligence tied to instinct??

Don't mean to detract. Correction is punishment in the dogs mind, no doubt about it. And that's why it works so well. They only want to do good for you, but are inherently selfish and naturally do things not to our liking, hence the correction.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Winchey » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:08 pm

I just see all of our self awareness and abstract thought as directly tied to our vastly superior intelligence. Dogs don't have nearly the intelligence to rationalize at the level we do. Neither do young human children and babies, they don't have near the morality, self awareness or ability to see through anothers perspective as an adult does either.

I don't think our brains work any differently, just different potential. I think the biggest problem dog owners have is giving the dog brain to much credit or ironicaly at the same time, not enough.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by Hattrick » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:08 pm

Timing timing timing this you need to get right.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by 4dabirds » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:51 am

SCT wrote:Don't mean to detract. Correction is punishment in the dogs mind, no doubt about it. And that's why it works so well. They only want to do good for you, but are inherently selfish and naturally do things not to our liking, hence the correction.
It seems you are contradicting yourself. How can they be inherently selfish yet want to do good for you. This would imply that dogs have a sense of morality as well as reason. It implies that they are conflicted in their desire to gain resources while denying their devotion to the master. This is anthropomorphic at best. You are putting human qualities on an animal that has none,and as a result punishing the lack of human qualities when they arise. This was the whole point of my post. As you certainly say correction is punishment in the dogs mind but this is only if you train that way. When an e-collar is properly used the dog avoids the correction by complying to the command. The end game is not to punish, the end game is to not need the e-collar. Through punishment the dog will inherently try and try again to accomplish its goal. It will push the collar until the level is such that the stimulation is commensurate with the distraction. The more distracted the more punishment. Dogs do this as nature had intended. If a wolf gave up every time another animal corrected it the species would not have survived. One hoof kick from an elk and we all go to extinction, I don't think so. While dogs are well removed from wild wolves they retain that dogged try and try again trait that we all see. So if a dog is presented with a solution that gets the resources and avoids the correction it will chose that strategy every time. For that matter the use of the e-collar while in the presence of a bird is wholly unnecessary if the training program is manipulated that the dog sees his action as beneficial to the dog but designed to benefit the trainer. Watch the Higgins video and you will see an example of how this manipulation works. The dog is reacting in a completely natural way to scenarios that the trainer has presented . NO e-collar.

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:01 pm

Dog is 16 weeks old. Forget about the ecollar, the pup is far too young.

Your over thinking the punishment. Don't train like Dr. Spock. She jumps on you, knee her in the chest and knock her down. She jumps on the couch, say NO! and give her a crack on the butt. She sticks her nose on the table, say NO! and slap her nose. NO is perhaps THE most important command a puppy learns.
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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by UpNorthHuntin » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:08 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Right on and corrections will be percieved as punishment by the dog who has no idea how we think or that we just call it correction.

Ezzy
I disagree with this notion a little. It all goes back to Pavlovs Theory and classical conditioning. I don't share the full belief that dogs are without cognitive thought and are only "conditioned" into a response, but I believe that a dog truly can tell the difference between correction and punishment. The important factor in that is TIMING. TIMING MEANS EVERYTHING. In the beginning of the Classical Conditioning Model we use "escape training" to show a dog the disired response... ie.. upward pressure on the leash while putting downward pressure on the rear to force the dog into the sit position. After a few trials we pair this with the "sit command". Once the dog performs this several times without the pressure, then we can begin to use "avoidance" training. Avoidance of pain. If the dog does not comply he gets a correction. In the beginning the correction is paired with a verbal "NO" command, such as NO!, Sit. It takes 10-15 trials for the dog to realize that the correction is because he did not sit when told, therefore he pairs the NO with the correction AND PAIN. In all of these we pair the correct response, even if forced, with praise, therefore the dog begins to learn that he desires praise over correction so he is "conditioned" into the desired response. When I used to instruct dog handlers this is the part that always drove me crazy. For instance a handler would tell the dog sit, stay. the dog goes say 5 minutes and breaks position. If the dog is caught soon enough before he actually completely breaks position the command is NO, STAY, because stay was the last command given and therefore is the command that the dog is breaking.

Now for punishment, first the correction has to fit the disobedience. If I was doing obedience training on an attack dog and the dog failed to sit when told, helocoptering the dog around in circles and choking him out is not a correction, it is punishment, and you bet that a dog can tell the difference. Another example would be my dog is in his kennel while I'm at work and escapes and maybe takes a dump on the living room floor. I get home three hours later and "punish" the dog for something he did three hours before. The dog does not comprehend that as a correction because it did not happen at the time of the infraction. He deems this as punishment, and in many cases he doesn't even know why he is being punished.

So punishment vs correction depends first on the timing of the correction, and secondly on the severity of the punishment, but dogs can comprehend the difference

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Re: Punishment Methodologies

Post by DonF » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:29 pm

This is amazing to me. 16 wk old pup can't do much of anything wrong. Of course it can appear to if you let it do something you don't want. If a 16 wk old pup take's off running and doesn't stop so you yell here over and over, did the pup disobey you or did you give a command you knew you couldn't enforce. With a 16 wkm old pup, the collar should be on the owner!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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