does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

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LtsHnt
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does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:27 am

iv posted questions in the past and have gotten great responses. so my new question/concern is this.

i have a femal V, little over 9mo old now...have not done very strict training. just e collar which she does great on, and getting her on as many birds as possible. i take her to a trainer who pops pigeons for her about once to twice a week and to the farm for wild phez about once a week. my concern is her drive....it seems to take a while for her to get going, some days are great and she seems to be ready from the start...others, it takes a little bit of time...if she finds a bird she turns it on, but if we dont find one within 30 min, she starts to get less focused. and little things start distracting her, like deer poop or tweety birds ect....at what age does it just click and the field turns into business. she seems skittish with new places or new fields as well for the first 10 min or so.

also, distant sounds seem to make her nervous, such as an airplane or shotgun shots, barking dogs....if she hears these things it takes alot of convincing to get her hunting again. perhaps im worrying too much, and i know i do at times since she is my first gundog. she is gun cond to startin pistol.

the trainer seems to think shes doing just fine and improving every day. however when he sees her shes finding a bird about every few min and the session only lasts so long.
any personal experiences with a pup like this. any tips on how to get her going with higher drive. she loves hunting dont get me wrong, just not a machine yet.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:21 am

My V is not what I'd call a "machine" either. He hunts. He hunts really hard sometimes. He's obedient and has his MH title. He's my go-to dog for any youth hunt. He's my favorite of the bunch, but he doesn't hunt like either one of my pointers or like my GSP come to think of it. He is the "best" dog I'll likely ever own, for a lot of other reasons - but I'd never consider him a "machine" like I do my two EP's. He has a good work ethic in the field, but if you're used to hard charging, do anything to find birds dogs - maybe you're comparing your girl to the wrong standard. It took my boy quite a while to really "get it" in the field. He started a bit slower and took A TON less pressure than my other dogs. He is the smartest dog I've ever owned in my life - but he likes to think things through. I think V's take a bit longer to mature - but if she's excited about birds, I'd just keep up that strategy - maybe with more wild bird experiences. The lighbulb will turn on, I'm sure.

Also, my young GSP (almost two now) was very unfocused early on unless I got her into birds right away - I just made sure that I did that with a strategically planted pigeon almost everytime we went hunting when she was small. Now she's weaned off of that "first bird" and she'll keep hunting even if we don't find birds for an hour.

As for the noise desensitation - just make sure your gun intro is done carefully and correctly - she should be leaping in the air looking for a dead bird every time she hears a shot. Our older GSP that passed away this year couldn't stand loud noises but lived for the gun. Is she from a proven breeding with hunting lines?
Last edited by RoostersMom on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by will-kelly » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:38 am

Sounds a little timid but it sounds to me like she is just young.

My Vizsla took about 1 year to really turn it on. She was/is timid by nature. Once she is confident in something she is all out no stopping her.

Her hunting drive may seem lacking but it sounds more like she's bored and doesn't know hunting is how you find birds.

You didn't post that she is retrieving. Is she allowed to have the birds?

The natural instinct is predicated on the smell, touch and taste of the bird. Her nose may still be developing as well.

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:47 am

The half dozen or so V's I have been around seemed to take a bit longer to "get into" the trained hunting mode and needed a gentle(but firm) hand. They seemed to be VERY aware of their owner's state of mind an keyed off that. If the owner was nervous, the dog was wound. If the owner was unsure, the dog was hesitant.

Sounds to me like your dog is reading you and reacting to you. That is a great thing because that means your dog will want to do what you want to do.

If the dog is indeed keying off you...it is up to you to show the way. Some suggestions...

Before you go out to train...have a plan in mind. Know what you want to do and how you are going to do it. This will boost YOUR confidence and, I suspect, your dog's as well. Be bold, be assertive and be self assured. If the dog hesitates, don't pander to that hesitation...move on. If you hear gunshots in the distance, walk toward them...don't look to see if the dog is following...just lead. Be the alpha dog. Encourage the behaviors you want and ignore those you don't.

Above all, and always...Keep it fun for both of you. Enjoy your youngster.

RayG

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by 1vizsla » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:08 pm

Ditto to all of the above.

Carla

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by deseeker » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:08 pm

As far as being timid about new places, new sounds, new people, etc. Load her into the truck and take her everyplace you go. Get her around new places, people, and sounds. The more things you expose her too the bolder she'll get (IMO). If all she has been exposed to is a few places, a few sounds, and a few people then she'll continue to be nervous about new things. As far as the hunting and losing interest, she should outgrow that as long as she is seeing a few birds (IMO). Good luck with your V.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by philrosenbaum » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:25 pm

We joined Navhda after our male V was over a year old and were not ale to run the NA. His drive seems to be very strong and as we have just started FF, he seems to be taking to training very well so far. Whenever we pull into our training grounds he starts huffing and sniffing more aggressively than at any other place we go.

I guess I would say that at just over 2 years old, and with limited field training and wild birds, our boy Zeke seems poised and ready to go! I think he is learning much faster than me, and we hope to train right up to UT testing then come back to MH. He is our first V and has some Field lines so as long as he knows that there might be birds somewhere around where I let him, he is off to the races and covers a lot of ground. during his JH test he covered the bird field , which was void of birds, as he had already pointed his within 30secs of entering the field, he left the bird field and ran over to the gallery and sat down next to my wife as if to say " got any fields around here with birds? ".

So, I guess I have to agree with many of you here that once you get em turned on, which might be a little later that some other breeds, let em rip and enjoy the journey!

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by Duckdon » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:29 am

Ltshnt........your first statement makes me wonder..."
i have a femal V, little over 9mo old now...have not done very strict training. just e collar which she does great on" ... What are you saying when your using the e-collar but not doing any strict training? I'm sure I am missing something but to me the e-collar is when strict training is in progress. Consistant and strict, well thought out standards are the key to successful training in my humble opinion.

Is it possible he is shutting down somewhat in the field because he has yet to ynderstand the collar and how to handle the pressure? Just asking or invoking thought. Don

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:47 am

The e collar was introduced mainly for recall. And after a couple days of use(and proper intro) I rarely need to use it. What I meant by nothing too serious is that I haven't started whoa training, FF, backing ect. Just recall with e collar and her finding birds. And didn't see any change in her after e collar intro

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by Vman » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:25 pm

So far I agree with all the above advice, especially Ray`s. But a couple of things do come to mind.
Try running the dog without the e-collar. You mentioned it is only for recall which is fine but sometimes it is clear to you but not the dog. For example. The dog is out hunting and having fun. Wants to find birds. Is from good field stock and has all the desire that would be required for you. You put out three birds. You know where they are the dog doesn`t. The dog goes out hunting and is no where near the bird or birds. So you recall. The dog just keeps on hunting, so you put on the collar to fix this problem. So now the dog goes out hunting and you want too help get the dog into the bird. You call and he keeps going. So you hit the collar. He knows what it means and comes back too you. This is where you must think like the dog. His genetics and desire tell him too go, and you are telling him No! Now he is confused and that is what you are dealing with more than likely.
The same confusion can take place if he is genetically a big running dog. His genetics say go and you are saying No and he is at the WTF bridge.
Remove the collar and don`t be so worried about the recall. Let him go, let him be out of control if you will. See if it makes a difference. Just change directions and give him a Here command and he will go too your front.
That would be the first thing I would look at.
If no difference the first time try it again a couple more tiimes. Try running him with another dog. Show him it is exciting to be out there even if he is chasing the other dog around, life is Good. Hopefully you will see a change in his demeanor.
If that works check back in here and we can lead you too the next step.

I agree wholeheartedly with the Socialization also. The number one mistake of most breeders is lack of socialization. They tend too leave it up too the new owner which is a big mistake, especially with a Vizsla.

Can you tell us whois in his pedigree?

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by Vman » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:02 pm

One more thing. Is he bird crazy? On a scale of 1-10 where would you rate him? The trainer should have showed this dog some pigeons in the yard and got him all bananas first and then move on too the field. Was this done first?

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by 4dabirds » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:57 am

Could she be coming into heat?

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by jude » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:07 pm

Agree with deseeker it is very important to expose your dog to as many sounds at a young age as you possibly can.I load my dogs up in the truck just to go run to the store and such.... :wink:

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:26 pm

he did intro her to birds and i would rank her around an 8. the trainer thinks she is plenty birdy, could be more so but plenty... and i agree with him. ill try using no collar with her the next few times, she is fixed so not in heat. also, i feel she was very exposed as a puppy, she went with me no matter where i went, dog park, we live next to a bussy roads, i took her on walks at night so she could only hear and not see cars ect. family and freinds houses, baby's dogs...and there is construction happening in our backyard currently. like i said before, once she finds a bird, things seem to speed up.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:28 pm

i work on getting her pedigree up

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:26 pm

a little update

have been takin my pup out as much as possible, about every otherday or so.....she was doing fantastic, i did not notice any difference in her with or without the collar on..was feeling vey optamistic about it....however "was" is the key word here..today i took her out again, she was doing her usual thing, found a hen phez right off the bat, then cont hunting..then all of a sudden she just stopped, we had only been hunting maybe 45min.i have no idea what spooked her, i could not hear anything, see anything that would make her feel uneasy...she completely shut down, wouldnt stay in the cover, and as soon as the jeep was in sight thats where she wanted to go. decided to just call it a day before i lost my cool and made things worse. as soon as we got home she took a nap...was she just tired? very frustrating

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:46 pm

Dogs are place oriented. When they experience things it is relative to their surroundings. If the dog had a bad experience in that location or something as small as seeing a tree that looked the same as one in a place , that the dog had a bad experience at ,it could set the dog off. Try a different place to train / hunt and see if you get a different reaction. Also if you are training with an e-colllar expect some negative reaction from the place you start at . Try to counter this with a lot of positive work first ,for the dog to associate the place with.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by Vman » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:16 pm

Agree with 4dabirds.

Feel free too correct me if I understood it wrong but the way it sounds, the dog found a hen right out of the gate, looked good, hunted on and then without a bird contact for 40 plus minutes the dog quit. If that is what happened you may want to get the dog into more bird contacts in a shorter period of time. Because of the initial question about timidness was asked, the answer is probably Yes, she probably is. With that being said, she could easily get bored, and it sounds like she lacks confidence and then quits because she can`t find a bird.
I would still keep the collar off this dog. Find a field that she likes best. Do a three bird set and space them out so they are approx. 5 minutes apart. After the last contact leash her up and take her back to the vehicle. That will leave her wanting one more. Hopefully she doesn`t go quietly. Never allowing her to potter around.
Repeat the same thing the next time. I would want to see an excited dog when let out of the vehicle. Once released she should hit those objectives that held birds the last time. Once you are happy with what you are seeing, the three bird set will now take a total of 20-25 minutes to run. Then it will take 30 min. to run then it will take 35 and so on.
If the dog does not improve with this at all, it could be a case of "We can`t train desire". But before we say that she needs the benefit of the doubt.
Couple of helpful pointers.
Keep your mouth shut and ignore her if she comes near you in the field. Pay no attention too her.
Use a hedge line that the wind is blowing through and run her cross wind of the scent. Don`t be afraid too pull some feathers and let them drift downwind of the bird. Give her plenty to work with. We are setting her up to succeed and that will boost confidence.
You may also want to stake her out and let her watch you put the birds out. I would want to see an excited dog when i walk away. Kinda like if you want your kid to be a fisherman, just leave him at the dock once. :wink:
Keep us posted.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:14 pm

update

took her out to trainer and she had her best day yet....few days later took her out to the fields at the farm, she was excited and acted like she really wanted to get out there.... after getting a little way into the field, she wouldnt even hunt...looked like she was freakin out from different sounds...cars driving by and people in the distance yelling...i decided i would try another field..unfortunately there is a school very close by and they were just letting the students out...even more cars combined with about 600 geese getting up at one time made her look even more spooky...called it a day...my plan is this, feel free to add or give advice.

i will be getting pigeons soon so i will start bringing birds to these places so she associates them with birds, sounds dont bother her when she "thinks/knows" there are birds near. at this point its hit and miss if she wild ones or not.

if i cant get birds to these places i may not take her there anymore, wait until i can get her in fields that i KNOW have birds and keep up with the trainer. i joined the local NAVDHA chapter here in sioux falls and hope they can help, they will be training on weekends soon.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by deseeker » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:41 pm

The Sioux Falls NAVHDA chapter has a lot of good people that can help you. :D They have a pretty active chapter.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by Vman » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:06 pm

i joined the local NAVDHA chapter here in sioux falls and hope they can help, they will be training on weekends soon.
It will do you both good. :D

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by birddogger » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:20 pm

Vman wrote:So far I agree with all the above advice, especially Ray`s. But a couple of things do come to mind.
Try running the dog without the e-collar. You mentioned it is only for recall which is fine but sometimes it is clear to you but not the dog. For example. The dog is out hunting and having fun. Wants to find birds. Is from good field stock and has all the desire that would be required for you. You put out three birds. You know where they are the dog doesn`t. The dog goes out hunting and is no where near the bird or birds. So you recall. The dog just keeps on hunting, so you put on the collar to fix this problem. So now the dog goes out hunting and you want too help get the dog into the bird. You call and he keeps going. So you hit the collar. He knows what it means and comes back too you. This is where you must think like the dog. His genetics and desire tell him too go, and you are telling him No! Now he is confused and that is what you are dealing with more than likely.
The same confusion can take place if he is genetically a big running dog. His genetics say go and you are saying No and he is at the WTF bridge.
Remove the collar and don`t be so worried about the recall. Let him go, let him be out of control if you will. See if it makes a difference. Just change directions and give him a Here command and he will go too your front.
That would be the first thing I would look at.
If no difference the first time try it again a couple more tiimes. Try running him with another dog. Show him it is exciting to be out there even if he is chasing the other dog around, life is Good. Hopefully you will see a change in his demeanor.
If that works check back in here and we can lead you too the next step.

I agree wholeheartedly with the Socialization also. The number one mistake of most breeders is lack of socialization. They tend too leave it up too the new owner which is a big mistake, especially with a Vizsla.

Can you tell us whois in his pedigree?
Ecellent post, IMO!!

Charlie
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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by zigzag » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:27 pm

I seem to remember my Vizsla going through a similar stage. My training was also very much like yours, from about 4 months old we started going to a pro trainer weekly, using peigeons in remote launchers going through gun condition. Dog did great hard charging finding birds holding points not gun shy. Then at about 9 month we would do are usuall walk in the fields and he would just putt along sniffing eating grass picking up sticks. I thought I had a dud! So we stop bird training altogether we just spent the summer hiking, camping, fishing, swimming in rivers playing fetch with sticks at the lake. No pressure to find birds just having fun learning about the outdoors. Going to BBQs with lots of pepole and children. Staying the night at friends houses. Then when September hit we went back to pigeons In launchers and shot every bird he pointed. Let him retrive them play with them carry the bird around as long as he wanted. By October we were hunting Pez at a WMA. Released birds. I could hunt him foor 3hrs with maybe 2 finds on a bad day and he would not want to quit. At that point he was coming up on 14 months. I don't have any real training advise to give you, just hang in there and let that Vizsla be your best buddy first and formost. These dogs will do anything for you once they know the game.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:23 pm

im just about to that point...i feel taking her out to the field lately has been making things worse...she was very socialized as a puppy and showed no fear toward any sound...its like a switch flipped. she was doing great. i hope she comes around, sucks when you put in time and money and this happens...but il keep trying, she stil has drive and wants to find birds so shes not totally lost. i guess this summer will be like you said, just fun outside. and hopefully about september she will be ready to start again. i will be at the trainer friday and that will help her confidence some.

example: took her to the NAVHDA training grounds today, its usually a nice quiet place and she used to love it there....today she was doing well and found a bird...and of course just my luck, as soon as the bird flushed, there was a dump truck, a good distance away, it was dumping rocks. it was loud and she shut down. i walked her the other way and she seemed to get a bit better and settled down but as soon as the jeep was in view thats where she wanted to be....also geese flying ove head seems to spook her too...its spring, they will be eveywhere and neve seemed to bother her in the past. ps no e collar on, no pressure.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by Sharon » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:18 pm

LtsHnt wrote:a little update

have been takin my pup out as much as possible, about every otherday or so.....she was doing fantastic, i did not notice any difference in her with or without the collar on..was feeling vey optamistic about it....however "was" is the key word here..today i took her out again, she was doing her usual thing, found a hen phez right off the bat, then cont hunting..then all of a sudden she just stopped, we had only been hunting maybe 45min.i have no idea what spooked her, i could not hear anything, see anything that would make her feel uneasy...she completely shut down, wouldnt stay in the cover, and as soon as the jeep was in sight thats where she wanted to go. decided to just call it a day before i lost my cool and made things worse. as soon as we got home she took a nap...was she just tired? very frustrating
Coyote? Had mine pup shut down completely all of sudden and saw a coyote leaving from the bush. Considered ourselves very lucky that we both got to go back to the car.
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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by stlgsp » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:59 pm

Could be a stage, or "fear period". Some puppies seem to have wider swings others go through them and are barely noticeable. My Vizsla had some really wild times where we backed off and just happy timed it until she got over it. This site kind of breaks it down by age http://www.dogclub.co.uk/advice/puppygrowth.php

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:25 pm

at first i thought it was her smelling a strange animal....however im noticing now it has more to do with sound....but only in the field...when walking around the neighborhood, there are tons of sounds. cars, geese (i live on the egde of town), kids playing at the school and she pays no attention to them. i have been trying to have as much happy time with her as i can but it seems something keeps spooking her. so my main concern now is do i keep taking her so she gets over this fear or gets used to it, or do i take a break...and how long of a break should i take with her...i still will take her to the trainer about 1 every othe week, she does fantastic there. but im sure she is used to the place, knows there will be birds there and she is very excited....as i stated before i will be getting some birds soon, hopefully a launcher, also joined NAVDHA and they start training on weekends next month.

ps...that site was very good, very informative, thanks!

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by zigzag » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:44 pm

When you first began using the E collar was it in the field? Do you think she may have a negative association to the field created by the E collar. Try putting the Ecollar on her when you take your walks around the neghborhood see if she shows any fear. How and what kind of Gun conditioning has take place? Could she be associating finding birds with a negative experince from gun conditioning? From your post it seems like the field and birds are creating fear that may also be associated with pressure. All work and no play is tough on a puppy. I am leaning towards the idea of taking her off birds for awhile. Then when she is ready for some work. Kill lots of birds for her.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:50 pm

the e collar was introduced outside of the field and was not used in the field until bothi and the trainer i am working with felt she was ready. i dont see any neg association with birds, she loves birds, she holds point well and hunts hard at the trainer with pigeons. gun conditioning has been just fine. we have taken it slow, she shows NO negative association with the gun (blank starting pistol) when the pigeons are released. i really dont feel the gun is a factor since its only used at the trainer and has gone very well, birds...she seems to love them, and again has shown no fear towards birds. i have not used the e collar for about three weeks now, i see no difference.....i feel that more birds that i can control, that she can find early in the field and keeping the sessions short is the way to go. perhaps this will boost her confidence? she seems to shine when she knows birds are around. but until i can do this, maybe i should keep her out of the field for now? she is my first gundog so i feel uneasy making a solid decision...i meat with the trianer fri. i will discuss this more with him then and see what he thinks, unfortunatly and fortunatly she always does well around him.

also, i feel that its been nothing but play...i have not needed to use the e collar for a long time before this, and have done no whoa training.

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:14 pm

lol sorry for the spelling errors. just re-read my post, and bad grammar

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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by LtsHnt » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:46 pm

been taking it easy on her since i last posted, and she is improving....however she still has her strang moments. my latest example is this. i took her out to the NAVDHA training grounds yesterday. she ran with another members two wirehairs and had a blast, later that day i took her to the farm. first field she did fantastic, found and pointed two roosters adn we moved on. next field she hunted hard and at the end she seemed spooked again and wanted back to the jeep....then today i took her to the training grounds again just the two of us. no pressure just out walkin lookin for birds...again she starts out good, then half way through she stops and is spooked, i call her to me and we leave the area and she starts hunting hard again.....still safe to call this a phase?

slistoe
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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by slistoe » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:45 am

jude wrote:Agree with deseeker it is very important to expose your dog to as many sounds at a young age as you possibly can.I load my dogs up in the truck just to go run to the store and such.... :wink:
Sometimes when you want to take the dog for a walk the parking lot at the mall is a better idea than the field and forest.

uplandnut
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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by uplandnut » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:09 am

I am not as experienced as many here but I think I would quit using the NAVHDA grounds as it sounds like your bad experiences stem from that location? You say that after she finds a bird she pretty much heads for the jeep, is it because she associates this to mean your done training? If you go to the same spot and do the same thing all the time she will know it, creatures of habit dogs are. I would try somewhere new and leave the ecollar home and just take her for a walk, when I say walk I'm referring to an area where you can let her off leash on public land and let her run. I try to do this with my dogs and notice they have way more confidence in themselves, also tired dogs are happy dogs. :)

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roaniecowpony
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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by roaniecowpony » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:59 am

I'm watching this to learn how the experienced trainers would address this.

Would it be a good move to go back to birds and no commands/no pressure, maybe a pigeon pole in the yard or other training ground where the dog is known to be the most comfortable? Then look for any signs that the dog is apprehensive from the bird being there?

DoubleBarrel GunDogs
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Re: does she sound timid to you...or is it just me

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:46 am

roaniecowpony wrote:I'm watching this to learn how the experienced trainers would address this.

Would it be a good move to go back to birds and no commands/no pressure, maybe a pigeon pole in the yard or other training ground where the dog is known to be the most comfortable? Then look for any signs that the dog is apprehensive from the bird being there?
I think you're on the right track here, but the OP has indicated that there appears to be no problem with birds, the gun or the collar. If you trust your trainer and want to stick with him, buy in to his system and work this out together. Ask him what experiences he has with fear factor in dogs and phases that they go trough.

Reading dogs over the internet is hard.

Nate

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