If you buy a pup what do you get with pup?

[Francois P vd Walt]

When I home a pup to a first time handler I suggest handler guidlines that are on my blog, what did you get when you got your dog?

Here are my guidlines http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/handle ... g-gsp.html these should help a first time handler or could it help any dog owner?

Please give some positive feedback if you think I should add or remove some guidelines?

[Johng918]

Your statistic and information on shock collars is not true.

[uplandrsb]

[quote] Your statistic and information on shock collars is not true. [quote

+1

Used correctly the elecric collar can be the single most important traing tool other than birds. Also the dogs actually prefer the stimulation over pinch collars, choke chains andpulling on the checkcord. Most dogs get excited to put the collars on

[sdsujacks]

Your statistic and information on shock collars is not true. [quote

+1

Used correctly the elecric collar can be the single most important traing tool other than birds. Also the dogs actually prefer the stimulation over pinch collars, choke chains andpulling on the checkcord. Most dogs get excited to put the collars on

My dog gets so excited the second he hears the clang sound on his e collar buckle when I get it out. Its nearly impossible to get the collar on him because he is just so excited. If he could do backflips, he probably would at the thought of putting his e collar on haha.

[rinker]

no matter what they say in the United States of Gadget sand toys

This is kind of offensive.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I would have to agree. You don't have a clue about e collars.


Doug

[mountaindogs]

I have been to SA though it was half a lifetime ago. Similar in some ways but a different culture. Little things in your post make me smile to myself with memories. Much like reading guidlines posted by any breeder (other than my own ) I agree in some places and disagree in some. Enjoyed it.
I also give some guidelines or tips but they are not online. I have a first week... settling in and such, family manners sheet, intro to field, and retrieving tips. I like to check in after the first few weeks and help if needed and I also work to get new folks connected with a club or other trainers near them. Since I worked as a vet tech for many years I also send email reminders for vacc boosters until the 4th set. Just because I know life gets busy... and Parvo is scary stuff.

[nikegundog]

Thanks, I got my laugh in today.

[Chukar12]

You asked...
It is wrought with conjecture and ignorance. It comes across amateurish at best and is to be scoffed at by anybody other than those who had anything but cursory knowledge of training pointing dogs. I try not to be this direct and to find humor in things, but based on this and some of your other historical perspective i would question whether or not you have the knowledge for breeding dogs.

[Wenaha]

I congratulate you on offering guidelines to new owners. Many breeders do not offer much information, and their customers end up getting advice on the Internet - some of which is actually helpful.

I did not read every word - but I am going to make a few random comments.

- I have never been to a field trial in South Africa, but in The US and Canada, field trials and hunting are NOT the same, nor do they require the dog to perform at the same level.

- I do commend you for advising owner to train their dogs to be steady to the shot and fall of a bird. Many here in the US do not do that. I think it is both a practical and a safety issue.

- Heeling a bird dog (on or off leash) is very useful. It will, if anything, INCREASE the dog's desire to run when released to hunt.

- Whistles are superior to voice commands. Using only three simple and unambiguous signals for turning, stopping, or recalling they are not confused with voice commands that may - or may not - be confusing or misunderstood. The whistle can be heard at greater distances that the voice. In training for field trials I always train a whistle command to GO this releases the dog on the breakway, and at a distance tells him to get going forward. Very useful with any dog, I think.

- E-collars. While I agree that this tool is not ALWAYS needed and that some people should never use one, they are essential for maintaining contact at distances beyond the length of the check cord. Many people (including you, apparently) think that they are cruel - they are not - only a handler can be cruel. My dogs always jump with joy and excitement when they see me with an e-collar in hand - they know we are going to have some fun. This aversion to e-collars is widespread in many countries and stems, I think, froma misunderstanding of their use.

- The SIT command should not require the additional instruction STAY. A dog should SIT until released. However, I never train or encourage a bird dog to sit - this behaviour becomes a 'safety zone' that the dog will revert to under training pressure. I teach my dogs to WHOA - stand still without moving their feet until released. Fundamental stuff, really. WHOA training is generally combined with yardwork where the dog learns to COME (I use HERE), walk on a lead, HEEL, and then to WHOA. Eventually, whistle commands are overlaid on the verbal commands so that the dog knows what is expected by voice OR whistle command.

Well, you asked, I responded

-

[Trekmoor]

I won't claim that I thoroughly read the provided link but I did not agree with some of it either. I felt the comments about the e- collar were not very helpful.
An entire nation of hunting dog people over the Atlantic from me use these collars with success ..... if they have used this training tool with thought and prior knowledge. I do not use one for the simple reason that I just don't understand their use as well as I would like..... Perhaps the same is the case with the O.P. ?

Minor quibbles concerning the Link provided were these. Personally I find it very useful to train pointing dogs such as G.S.P.'s to walk to heel. I train mine's to do what I call "practical heelwork" which means that they do not hug my legs but they do not move out in front of me either or dodge off for a bit of self-hunting. With this kind of heelwork in place I can hunt one dog while 2 or 3 others walk to heel waiting their turn to hunt. I usually hunt just one dog at a time which means I can always have a relatively "fresh" dog out hunting without having to hang on to a lead in one hand and a gun in the other.

I can't imagine me carrying a couple of frying pans around with me when training a pup. If I need a "bang" that isn't too loud I simply pull the string on a party popper after having removed the streamers inside. Party poppers are much lighter and smaller to carry than frying pans. Sometimes I tape party poppers to a walking stick then swing the stick as I would a gun while pulling the popper string. I can use party poppers anywhere, even the local park with no objections from anyone.

Bill T.

[Sharon]

You asked...
It is wrought with conjecture and ignorance. It comes across amateurish at best and is to be scoffed at by anybody other than those who had anything but cursory knowledge of training pointing dogs. I try not to be this direct and to find humor in things, but based on this and some of your other historical perspective i would question whether or not you have the knowledge for breeding dogs.

There is a lot of good advice in the blog ( way too wordy) , but I would handle it differently.

I would give short advice on the basics of house training , crating , obedience principles, need for extensive socialization, heeling, vaccination schedule, links for AKC test/trial info., developmental stages of puppy growth chart etc.....
These are the questions new pup owners ask me.
I would suggest recommended training programmes for those who want to train their dog to hunt for them, starting with good puppy development programmes.

...........................................

\ Let's start with calling it a training collar so it isn't banned in the USA/Canada too as it has been in England.

PS No amperage in a training collar. It is just another effective tool when used properly.

[Ms. Cage]

Enough said on the E-COLLAR. Don't need my 2 cent. We don't punish dogs , we correct dogs. Any type of tool used to punish is not being used correctly.

[Chukar12]

Sharon,

I am unclear about why you quoted me as i read your response.

However, this quote alone

The shock collar is a logical invention from a Human perspective but a dog does not understand this system at all (no matter what they say in the United States of Gadget sand toys-rather follow the five phases as explained in these notes), and please remember that you are dealing with a dog!!!!

discounts the training acumen and removes the assumed veil one might take to filter their response. I am not inclined to sugar coat a response to someone with as many mistakes in their rambling diatribe as appear in that one when they indite an entire country in their work...especially my country.

What about this?

Hunters that do not wish to do Field Trial testing are strongly urged to partake in the "Natural Ability Test" and it is strongly recommended that you do not breed with your "German Short hair Pointer" until you have passed this test. Should you breed your dog without passing at least the "Natural Ability test" you will be doing the German Short hair pointers in South Africa a terrible disservice. Follow these notes exactly as written and you should easily pass the Natural Ability test and do well in Field Trials (find out about the backing requirement).

Do I read this correctly? Do not breed your GSP unless it can pass NA? I assume becauseit would be a poor example of the breed, however follow these steps and you will pass? Now...wouldn't that be the same dog?

4. Good Dog or Praise

HINT: POINT 4 ABOVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMAND AND MUST BE USED FAR MORE THAN ANY OTHER COMMAND THROUGHOUT YOUR DOGS LIFE

So, if you want pup sleeping with you in your bed,then I'm all for that. As soon as your pup can't get access to you, that's when whining starts and it never goes away. Also, to avoid serious whining, never put your dog in a trailer.

There are a million things like this in that website, and for those of you that have never had a problem when you let your dog do this or that...I know, I know... Sometimes, there is no problem with a dog sleeping in the bed, and you may own a dozen dogs in your life. that does not mean you should offer advice like this. With the wrong dog(s) it does manifest into problems. Sleeping in bed with you is for you...not the dog, let's not lose perspective here. Again, I would have kept my opinions to myself in this case if it was not solicited. There are copious examples of limited personal experience being presented as expertise in here, some of it offensively and I am not buying that it is simply cultural.

[buckeyebowman]

Sharon,

I am unclear about why you quoted me as i read your response.

However, this quote alone

The shock collar is a logical invention from a Human perspective but a dog does not understand this system at all (no matter what they say in the United States of Gadget sand toys-rather follow the five phases as explained in these notes), and please remember that you are dealing with a dog!!!!

discounts the training acumen and removes the assumed veil one might take to filter their response. I am not inclined to sugar coat a response to someone with as many mistakes in their rambling diatribe as appear in that one when they indite an entire country in their work...especially my country.

What about this?

Hunters that do not wish to do Field Trial testing are strongly urged to partake in the "Natural Ability Test" and it is strongly recommended that you do not breed with your "German Short hair Pointer" until you have passed this test. Should you breed your dog without passing at least the "Natural Ability test" you will be doing the German Short hair pointers in South Africa a terrible disservice. Follow these notes exactly as written and you should easily pass the Natural Ability test and do well in Field Trials (find out about the backing requirement).

Do I read this correctly? Do not breed your GSP unless it can pass NA? I assume becauseit would be a poor example of the breed, however follow these steps and you will pass? Now...wouldn't that be the same dog?

4. Good Dog or Praise

HINT: POINT 4 ABOVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMAND AND MUST BE USED FAR MORE THAN ANY OTHER COMMAND THROUGHOUT YOUR DOGS LIFE

So, if you want pup sleeping with you in your bed,then I'm all for that. As soon as your pup can't get access to you, that's when whining starts and it never goes away. Also, to avoid serious whining, never put your dog in a trailer.

There are a million things like this in that website, and for those of you that have never had a problem when you let your dog do this or that...I know, I know... Sometimes, there is no problem with a dog sleeping in the bed, and you may own a dozen dogs in your life. that does not mean you should offer advice like this. With the wrong dog(s) it does manifest into problems. Sleeping in bed with you is for you...not the dog, let's not lose perspective here. Again, I would have kept my opinions to myself in this case if it was not solicited. There are copious examples of limited personal experience being presented as expertise in here, some of it offensively and I am not buying that it is simply cultural.

I didn't read Francois' entire blog, but I caught enough of the jist of it here to get a pretty good idea.

If the dog doesn't understand the "training collar" (thank you Sharon) who's fault is that? Is it not the trainer? I read another post on this forum where the poster said that most people "annoy" their dogs with a training collar rather than "train" them. This is a valid point. There are far too many people out there who see the e-collar as a panacea. All you have to do is push a button and all your problems are solved. When I trained my first bird dog I didn't have any of this modern stuff, I had me and my voice. And they worked just fine. The training collar can, however be a valuable asset to "reach out and touch" a dog to correct its behavior.

As other have mentioned, our dogs go ballistic when they see the training collars being brought out. To them, it means they are going hunting and they are going to have some fun! Interestingly, we've been running a brace of GSP's with only one training collar. That collar is usually worn by the lead hunter, Abigail. Yancey, her sister, usually goes without. Well, we noticed that, when hunting, Abigail would hunt fairly close while Yancey would sometimes run "hog wild and simple'! After one particularly frustrating session, with Yancey acting as a "self employed hunter" as Trekmoor would put it, we called both dogs in and switched the training collar from Abigail to Yancey. It didn't take too long after that before Yancey was hunting properly while Abigail ran "hog wild and simple". In other words, the dogs knew who was wearing the collar, and who could get away with improper behavior! They're not stupid, people! So, we bought a second receiver. Imagine Yancey's surprise when we first "nicked" her, with the second receiver, for getting out of line. It's was just a way of letting her know, "we're watching you"!

Also, we should not breed our dogs unless they pass some Field Trial test with arbitrary standards set by some arbitrary body? You must be joking! I could care less about Field Trials! What we (I) want are dogs that hunt. Dogs that hunt real birds in real hunting situations. When i was some younger, a friend's Dad ran field trial beagles. Interesting exercise, but if you hunted over them you could fall asleep! With bird dogs, GSP's in particular, I'm not about to jump on a horse, gallop a half mile, and use a GPS system to locate my dog on point! That has absolutely no place in my world. For those who enjoy that sort of thing, have at it. But don't try to tell me that I need your permission to breed a true "gun dog" who will hunt from sunrise to sunset! Shades of George III!

Now, point 4 I do somewhat agree with. I use tons of praise and positive reinforcement for the dog when I train. Negatives have their place. After all, a dog must know what it cannot do. But I want the dog focused more on the positives, what it can do to make good things happen for it. As far as I'm concerned, this, more than anything else other than what the dog has built into it, gives a dog drive and determination. But then Francois kind of goes over the cliff again, although he does qualify the statement with "if you want". As for that, I have never had a dog, whether hunting or not, that was was allowed on the furniture, that was welcome in my bed, that was allowed to beg at table, or that functioned in any other way other than a dog! Now this is not to say that I treated it cruelly. It was simply given to know it's place. It had it's own bed, it's own food and water bowls, and, in the back yard, it's own house. As long as the rest of it's life is satisfying, this is plenty for a dog!

[Jagerdawg]

Well you asked. I read it what a colossal waste of my time. there is a lot of good information on this forum and now I know not to listen to anything you have to say. Thank you for that anyway.

[Sharon]

Sharon,

I am unclear about why you quoted me as i read your response.

I liked your response and agreed with it . I said the same thing a little more sweetly. and with some suggestions for improvement.

[Francois P vd Walt]

Thank you all for responding and taking the time to read the notes, e collers are banned in S Africa by the Kennel Union Of South Africa the same as AKC in America!

I have come a long way myself since these notes were written, I have been using e collars for 2 years they do work if used correctly. The majority of handlers in our country use e collars for correcting problems in their dogs that were trained wrongly from the start.

I now own dvd from Evan Graham and Jon Cindy Hann use e collars with success and help as many guys as possible to use it correctly, import e collers http://www.canicom.org/canicom_1500.php and have sold many.[quote="Ricky Ticky Shorthairs"]I would have to agree. You don't have a clue about e collars.

I agree these guidlines need to be upgraded, was never meant to be offensive rather to use the replies to change mistakes or tips to be more helpful to our local handlers. Getting ideas on what on how to share training tips with new guys,


For those who do not agree thanks for your input, I do not think there is a right or wrong answer here, thanks anyway.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I give their:
medical records
Up to date on puppy shots
AKC / FDSB transfer papers
signed contract
pedegree
a weeks worth of feed
application to the ABC
and a copy of the "Puppy Primer" by Rick Smith and Sharon Potter.

[gotpointers]

You should have all seen this coming a long time ago. Several of you entertained his questions with your answers and stayed quiet while he lectured you to the "correct" answer to his own questions.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Reminds me of somebody who used to be on here. Same m.o.

[DonF]

Reminds me of somebody who used to be on here. Same m.o.

Not gonna mention his name but, years ago I did know him, G.V. He lived in Oregon then and ran NSTRA. He had a very very nice Setter. His view on e-collar's was really tainted, he never used one and had no idea what you could do with one. In those days they were refereed to as shock collars for they were pretty rude, great improvement's have been made in them. In fact to me they have gone over board with bells and whistles. I like one button and instant shock, don't know where to find that these days. DT 300 was just that! But today the intensity if the shock is controlled at the transmitter unlike the old days when a switch was plugged into the collar. I know your not alone not liking the collar but i strongly suspect that everyone against them has little or no experience with them or maybe has not seem them used properly.

[Ruffshooter]

Well disregarding all above: All I have ever gotten witha pup is a small crate some shreaded, pissed on news paper and a great welcome when I opened the door of that crate.

I never asked for more. Never needed more.
But small simple list for first time dog owners or hunting dog owners might be helpful, to some.
Rick