training quartering

[Elihu]

getting new pup want to train him to quarter. What are the best methods that you have used for this?

[big_fish]

with my lab we would start in the center of the field and zig-zag the field and learn the whistle ment turn. Now with my Brittany we are starting the same thing but he seems to quarter the field on his own I don't know if he has a fear of going into the higher grass(woods edge) and just turns but I'll take it anyway I can get it .

[Double Shot Banks]

I live on 5 acres, with my lab when i take him running he naturally stays within 50 yards or i blow the whistle, and he goes back an forth just to explore,
When you get your dog and its old enough to be off the cc (only if you trust it and have a lot of land) see what it does
Isaac and Banks

[Trekmoor]

What breed of dog are you getting ? A flusher or a pointing breed ?

Bill T.

[Neil]

No dog should do a windsheild type quarter, and certainly not a pointing dog. There are always objectives, places more likely to hold birds. Teach it to turn on command, feed the desire to find birds, and let the dog hunt.

[Kmack]

Train the dog to work to the front of you, then you steer the dog where you want to put it by moving in that direction. You get the best of both worlds if you teach your dog to always find the front.

[SpringerDude]

Quartering is a great way for a dog to search for game and the pattern will change somewhat depending on the wind direction. When you Zig Zag in the field to teach the dog, do it with the wind in your face. The dog will want to run with the wind on the side of its face which causes the pup to be more willing to move side to side. Most dogs will have some form of pattern when searching for birds. When hunting, I don't expect a dog to quarter in a field with no cover. However, when I am in good cover, I want the dog to cover as much ground as it can with its nose. Staying in reasonable gun range.

When I am woodcock hunting, the cover is so dense and thick, it is hard for a dog to have a consistent pattern but I do want the pup to cover ground on both sides of me in search of game scent.

When pointing dogs get to good cover, I believe they do quarter in the cover checking for birds before moving on to other objectives.

The dog will learn to stay out in front of you. This is why the zig zag walking helps in teaching a dog to run a pattern. Later, you will be able to cast your dog by turning your shoulders a particular direction.
All dogs learn to use the wind to find birds. Quartering is a way to help teach dog to be more efficient in the field.

[ezzy333]

.I don't want my dogs quartering when they should be out searching for objectives that are likely to hold birds. I find running back and forth a wastef time normally and it is very seldom you will find a bird out in a field with heavy cover because birds tend to be edge dwellers.

Ezzy

[Neil]

Why do we think pointing (or flushing), retrieving, disposition, and almost all other traits are genetic, yet think we need to direct the dog to the bird? A dog has at least 16,000 years of predatory genes that instruct it in recognizing productive cover that will be most likely to hold birds. Man is a poor predator, without a gun just about worthless.

I have watched dog after dog go birdless in a trial only to have the great ones find birds, that is what makes them great - finding birds!

If a dog is quartering, his is spending at least half of his time non-productively, the wind is wrong, poor cover, etc. I have tried to just hunt into the wind, but without circumnavigating the globe I have not figured how to get back to the truck.

Let the dog hunt, he won't find every bird, but at the end of the day he will find more than if you try to do all the thinking.

[deseeker]

.I don't want my dogs quartering when they should be out searching for objectives that are likely to hold birds. I find running back and forth a wastef time normally and it is very seldom you will find a bird out in a field with heavy cover because birds tend to be edge dwellers.

Ezzy

Hard to see objectives in an 80 acre chest high CRP field of switch grass. It all looks the same to a dog plowing thru it 2 feet below the surface. I'll like my dog quartering----just because I don't hunt like you do doesn't mean I don't get birds. Different strokes for different folks. If I hunt creeks or fence lines they don't quarter, but big CRP fields with 3 guys and 1 dog, they'd better be quartering covering ground in front of 3 hunters. (IMO)

[Neil]

I have never seen 80 acres of homogeneous natural grass, there are always structures, interuptions, varied heights and lushness, lower and higher ground. Plus you need to consider the wind. I have never found birds evenly distributed in an area. Ever watch a fox, coyote or wolf, or even a ferrel cat hunt, they are hunting for a living, if they don't do it effectively they starve, and they DO NOT QUARTER.

I have seen sections (640 acres) of leveled and tiled standing corn that was homogeneous, but have never found a way to hunt it until it had beed picked. And it did not hold birds except around the edges, anyway. Which I think would be the case in your mythical 80 acres. But if it were the only place I had to hunt, I would put the dog at heal as a nonslip retriever, why wear the dog out when he serves no purpose?

Oh, I don't know how a dog can tell the terrain from 24" of the ground, but they can, I think they feel it.l, sense it.

Of course we are not telling you how to hunt, just sharing a better way.

[SpringerDude]

Who would want a dog to quarter a cut cornfield? Of course hunting a standing corn field would be a waste of time as well if hunting pheasants unless you are just driving and blocking for pheasants.
The edges of a cut grain field, in the grass, is where the birds will more than likely be. Let that dog cover the ground and look for birds.

Because a dog has a hunting pattern doesn't mean someone is directing the dog to the birds.

A fox, coyote or ferrel cat usually hunt their home territory. They know where they are most likely to find their food. When they get to that area they have to search to find the food. I have watched a coyote hunting in a field and there actually was some searching going on looking for the next meal. You are correct. he did not search all the way to the hunting area but he did when he got there. That is the quartering we are talking about. Searching possible productive areas. Not hitting a line and running passed the birds on the wrong side of the field edge because the wind is coming from the field vs the productive cover.

I wouldn't say a better way but maybe a different way. I am sure you enjoy your walks with your dogs as much as I do.

[Neil]

Train the dog to work to the front of you, then you steer the dog where you want to put it by moving in that direction. You get the best of both worlds if you teach your dog to always find the front.

The above makes my point about directing or steering the dog. Many, perhaps most hunters, think they know better than the dog where the bird are, I think that untrue, at least with a dog that has been allowed to fine tune its hunting instincts. Of course, I agree with keeping the front part, except I follow the dog. My job is to drive the truck and carry the gun, the dog's to find birds. The exception is if the dog tries to go somewhere unsafe or where we are not allowed to hunt.

And wild predators never quarter in the windshield type sence. They do, as you say, "hunt the area out", which is what I want the dog to do. Translocate a fox to another state, and it will hunt the same way, you think they learn it, I think they are born with it.

[deseeker]

I have never seen 80 acres of homogeneous natural grass, there are always structures, interuptions, varied heights and lushness, lower and higher ground. Plus you need to consider the wind. I have never found birds evenly distributed in an area. Ever watch a fox, coyote or wolf, or even a ferrel cat hunt, they are hunting for a living, if they don't do it effectively they starve, and they DO NOT QUARTER.

I have seen sections (640 acres) of leveled and tiled standing corn that was homogeneous, but have never found a way to hunt it until it had beed picked. And it did not hold birds except around the edges, anyway. Which I think would be the case in your mythical 80 acres. But if it were the only place I had to hunt, I would put the dog at heal as a nonslip retriever, why wear the dog out when he serves no purpose?

Oh, I don't know how a dog can tell the terrain from 24" of the ground, but they can, I think they feel it.l, sense it.

Of course we are not telling you how to hunt, just sharing a better way.

Neil---
In Nebraska in order for a field to be enrolled in CRP, it has to of been cropped in the past. In Nebraska case that usually means corn or beans. So the fields that are put in are usually big and have been cleared of everything because they were farmed. Most farmers will go with the cheapest way to seed it, which amounts to drilling in grass seed--switch grass, big Bluesteam, Indian grass, etc. These grasses are tall grasses that are usually controlled by rainfall. Lots of rain it's all tall. Little rain and it is only belt high. So usually the whole field is about the same height. The grass is usually thick enough it chokes out all weeds and flowers by the 3rd year so it's pretty much the same thickness. The coyotes and fox you talk about catch a lot of the birds around the edge, so the smart birds will be deeper into the fields to avoid the prediters. About the only time I constantly see birds along the edge is really cold weather when the birds get lazy staying close to the edge along the crop ground where their food supply is. As far as various heights of the land, early in the mornings most of the birds will be higher up on the ridges(where ever the ridge is in the field). BUT if the weather is terrible the night before the birds will roost in the lower areas out of the wind --even if that is in the middle part of the field. So in NE they can be found anywhere. So my dogs quarter when we enter a field, once they get on scent I let them follow the birds. No quail around here(saw 1 covey in 3 years) so everything I hunt is pheasant(which like to run). If your dogs mainly just drive ahead the birds will just loop wide and run to the back. A quarting dog changes position and confuses the birds and basicly drives the running birds ahead of it trying to pin them at the field corners against open ground.
I'll keep my dogs working ahead of me and not at heel thank you. When you come up here and hunt you can hunt your dogs anyway you like it is your choice. But I really don't need you to tell me HOW MY DOGS should hunt in my area of the country and my choice of birds. (IMO) I don't tell you how to run on birds in your part of the country :roll: THere are other ways to hunt other than edge running dogs. The original post was how to train quartering and not trying to tell him NOT to quarter. You give alot of good advice on stuff, but this guy wants a dog that quarters, so advise on how to get his dog to quarter, not talk him out of it by telling him it's wrong (IMO)

[SpringerDude]

I don't think you teach a dog to use the wind. The dog understands that better than a human can. We teach the dog to work with us especially if it is a flushing breed.

I will also state this, a windshield pattern in the wrong wind direction is pretty useless in finding birds. The dogs will adjust their pattern based on the wind conditions.

When folks mention quartering, the first assumption is windshield wiper pattern. The pattern looks different if it is a crossing wind or downwind. A hunter needs to understand what the dog is going to do in the wind conditions to be a good partner in the field with the dog.

[SpringerDude]

Lots of discussion and opinions and we still don't know what style of dog Elihu has or age of dog.

[Elkhunter]

I just follow my dogs, they find birds all the time in places that I dont think there are birds.

[Neil]

Lots of discussion and opinions and we still don't know what style of dog Elihu has or age of dog.

It happens so often, a guy comes on,asks a reasonable question, we fuss and discuss, and we never hear from them again. That is telling.

[Neil]

I have never seen 80 acres of homogeneous natural grass, there are always structures, interuptions, varied heights and lushness, lower and higher ground. Plus you need to consider the wind. I have never found birds evenly distributed in an area. Ever watch a fox, coyote or wolf, or even a ferrel cat hunt, they are hunting for a living, if they don't do it effectively they starve, and they DO NOT QUARTER.

I have seen sections (640 acres) of leveled and tiled standing corn that was homogeneous, but have never found a way to hunt it until it had beed picked. And it did not hold birds except around the edges, anyway. Which I think would be the case in your mythical 80 acres. But if it were the only place I had to hunt, I would put the dog at heal as a nonslip retriever, why wear the dog out when he serves no purpose?

Oh, I don't know how a dog can tell the terrain from 24" of the ground, but they can, I think they feel it.l, sense it.

Of course we are not telling you how to hunt, just sharing a better way.

I typed a long response, but it never appeared. So the short answer, I killed my first Nebraska pheasant in the 1960's, I may be wrong, but not from a lack of experience.
Neil---
In Nebraska in order for a field to be enrolled in CRP, it has to of been cropped in the past. In Nebraska case that usually means corn or beans. So the fields that are put in are usually big and have been cleared of everything because they were farmed. Most farmers will go with the cheapest way to seed it, which amounts to drilling in grass seed--switch grass, big Bluesteam, Indian grass, etc. These grasses are tall grasses that are usually controlled by rainfall. Lots of rain it's all tall. Little rain and it is only belt high. So usually the whole field is about the same height. The grass is usually thick enough it chokes out all weeds and flowers by the 3rd year so it's pretty much the same thickness. The coyotes and fox you talk about catch a lot of the birds around the edge, so the smart birds will be deeper into the fields to avoid the prediters. About the only time I constantly see birds along the edge is really cold weather when the birds get lazy staying close to the edge along the crop ground where their food supply is. As far as various heights of the land, early in the mornings most of the birds will be higher up on the ridges(where ever the ridge is in the field). BUT if the weather is terrible the night before the birds will roost in the lower areas out of the wind --even if that is in the middle part of the field. So in NE they can be found anywhere. So my dogs quarter when we enter a field, once they get on scent I let them follow the birds. No quail around here(saw 1 covey in 3 years) so everything I hunt is pheasant(which like to run). If your dogs mainly just drive ahead the birds will just loop wide and run to the back. A quarting dog changes position and confuses the birds and basicly drives the running birds ahead of it trying to pin them at the field corners against open ground.
I'll keep my dogs working ahead of me and not at heel thank you. When you come up here and hunt you can hunt your dogs anyway you like it is your choice. But I really don't need you to tell me HOW MY DOGS should hunt in my area of the country and my choice of birds. (IMO) I don't tell you how to run on birds in your part of the country :roll: THere are other ways to hunt other than edge running dogs. The original post was how to train quartering and not trying to tell him NOT to quarter. You give alot of good advice on stuff, but this guy wants a dog that quarters, so advise on how to get his dog to quarter, not talk him out of it by telling him it's wrong (IMO)

[Neil]

I do not know what is happening with my posts.

So, enjoy your dog.

[deseeker]

Lots of discussion and opinions and we still don't know what style of dog Elihu has or age of dog.

I looked on his profile, 2 dogs--setters. hunts quail and woodcock. Doesn't say the age of the dogs, but at least we know he is talking about pointing dogs.

[Neil]

I just follow my dogs, they find birds all the time in places that I dont think there are birds.

+1

[Neil]

I am in opposition to the beliefs of many field trial friends that are much more succesful, but I have always found the demand that the dog always remain at 10 to 2 as the course twists and turns, often with the wind blowing up the dogs butt. For me it is the most unnatural part of trials. I understand it, and the dogs learn to adjust, often pointing after they pass the bird.

But I have never seen a dog rewarded for quartering. Not even in a spaniel trial.

[Trekmoor]

I find it interesting that so many people on this forum believe ,or seem to believe, a hunting dog should dictate the direction of the hunt and the handler is there only to shoot. It isn't like that here but then,unless a grouse moor is being hunted, the area to be hunted is likely to be considerably less. We often are hunting in relatively confined spaces and we do like our dogs to quarter the ground into the wind.

A "windscreen wiper" pattern is best done directly into the wind but as you all know that isn't always possible for the man with the gun but it is possible to some extent for the hunting dog. Few dogs will hunt a really good classical pattern into the wind on a tail wind but remember that it need only be a tail wind to the handler. It is possible to have the handler walk with the wind at his back as the dog either does a classical tailwind hunting pattern or, more likely , hunts in front of the walking handler in an ongoing series of large ovals or loops.

On a cheekwind a dog finds it more easy to adopt the classical wind pattern with the wind in it's favour at all times . We have what are sometimes called "hedging and ditching" trials here for the versatile breeds and I detest them. The dogs are only expected to trot along the edges of hedges and ditches to find and point game. I think that is work for a spaniel or maybe a fat old lab but I suppose it could be said that the dogs are hunting only the "objective ?" I don't train in that way or allow my pointing dogs to work in that way. I greatly prefer my dogs to quarter the field or at least a large part of it AND hunt the hedge or ditch.
I know most of the pheasants will be hiding in the hedge or ditch but there are sometimes partridges out in the fields and I have lost count of how often my dogs have had a nice point on them out in a field that was only supposed to have birds around the edges.

I don't think this has much to do with the O.P.'s question however so my original question made in this thread remains to be answered...... will you be getting a flushing or a pointing breed ? The "pattern" to the wind remains the same but the ways in which it can be achieved and the differences in required range are not the same.

Bill T.

[Sharon]

I don't want any quartering pointer/setter . I want them running those edges and if there are birds in the middle of the field ( not usual) they will still pick up the scent. Hopefully the dog will be trained well enough to hold until I get there. However I would want a quartering flusher. I'd want that bird flushed with in shooting range.

Mr. Pugsley
a Springer my Dad gave me when I was 15 Grooming wasn't a priority in those years.