Ear Pinch

[labman626]

I have a dog that I cannot get to open her mouth. It is like she has no feeling in her ears. Have any of you ever encountered this if so how do you get enough pressure on their ear to open their mouth? I am to the point I am hurting my thumb.

[ACooper]

What are you pinching the ear against? I use the buckle of my e collar as a pressure point.

[labman626]

That is what I am using but I am not getting a response it is almost like my dog is not feeling anything.

[Doc E]

What has been your process been ("HOLD") up until this point ?
What FF program are you following ?



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[labman626]

Hold has been done. I am following SmartFetch. I even tried toe hitch on her today and still no response. I forced trained my first dog with toe hitch and it worked great for her but cannot seem to get any pressure on this dog.

[Doc E]

Hold has been done. I am following SmartFetch. I even tried toe hitch on her today and still no response. I forced trained my first dog with toe hitch and it worked great for her but cannot seem to get any pressure on this dog.

How were you getting the paint roller (I assume you are using a paint roller) in her mouth during HOLD ?


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[labman626]

Just pinching her lip against her teeth and opening mouth and putting paint roller in there.

[campgsp]

Are you pinching the inner ear lobe or the outer ear against the collar?

[labman626]

I have done both.

[whoadog]

The dog must be tough, tough, tough. I am assuming it is a lab given your handle. If the nerve(toe) hitch was properly applied you were put a great deal of pressure on the dog without results. I had a dog once that was tough enough I couldn't just pull the hitch to get him to open his mouth. What I wound up doing was drilling a hole through the table. I ran my cord through the hole and tied a loop in the end. Then I put my foot in the loop and pushed down with my leg. The result was basically like standing on his foot. It worked but it was really difficult for me (emotionally) to do. I don't like putting a dog in that much pain. If I were to do that dog again, I would pre-condition with a collar so he learned to "turn the stimulation off" and train FF him that way.

[labman626]

She is pretty tough never seen anything like it.

[Duckdon]

You might want to get a second opinion on your style and how to do FF, from someone that knows what they are doing. Not saying your doing it wrong, but a second opinion with someone that is there on site would be an option. Good Luck. Don

[Doc E]

Just pinching her lip against her teeth and opening mouth and putting paint roller in there.

Pinching her lip with what ? Your finger/thumb or the paint roller itself ?
Where in SmartFetch does it say to pinch the lip ? ? ?

Pinch the ear (in the proper place) & against the tang on the buckle............. Put the roller in her mouth just like you did with HOLD.
Once the roller is in her mouth, release the pinch.



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[Chukar12]

You may try cutting a golf tee off flat to remove the point and leave it about a half inch long. Slip it in one of the holes in the collar from the back side so the cut-off end is sticking out. This gives you a pressure point. You shouldn't need to pinch it too hard.

[topher40]

Use pliers, even ceramic tile nippers for the most stubborn of dogs that dont respond.

[Doc E]

It's been my experience that seldom is "not enough pressure" the problem.
It's more a matter of timing and finesse.
You don't need to apply sooooo much pressure that the dog vocalizes (thus opens mouth).
Pinch the ear, use the same technique that you used for HOLD to get the roller in the mouth,
then immediately release the ear pinch pressure and give genuine praise.
The dog will soon learn that obeying the FETCH command will get rid of the discomfort from the ear pinch.
NOTICE that I said 'discomfort' --- and not 'pain'.

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[whoadog]

The dog will soon learn that obeying the FETCH command will get rid of the discomfort from the ear pinch.
NOTICE that I said 'discomfort' --- and not 'pain'.

I agree 100% that this should be the goal. I am a much better trainer now than I was when I broke the one really tough dog I had. Looking back on it, I could have done a better job myself and the "timing and finesse" would have yielded better results. I still don't care for FF training and avoid it whenever I can.

[ezzy333]

Someone who is an expert should explain the difference between discomfort and pain and how you know when or what someone else is feeling and where it fits into this structure.

Ezzy

[Fran Seagren]

The dog will soon learn that obeying the FETCH command will get rid of the discomfort from the ear pinch.
NOTICE that I said 'discomfort' --- and not 'pain'.

I agree 100% that this should be the goal. I am a much better trainer now than I was when I broke the one really tough dog I had. Looking back on it, I could have done a better job myself and the "timing and finesse" would have yielded better results. I still don't care for FF training and avoid it whenever I can.

I also agree with the above posts.

I am not an expert or a pro, but have FF'd about 20 dogs. I don't believe "pain" should be part of the program. Just my .02 worth.

Fran

[cjhills]

Use pliers, even ceramic tile nippers for the most stubborn of dogs that dont respond.

I really hope this is meant as a joke. If you really use these tools you need to change your system.
Some dogs respond to pain by withdrawing and won't yelp no matter what you do. I just open their mouth and put it in and tell him fetch, when he will take the dummy if I hold it in front of him I pinch his ear lightly between my thumb and finger he don't have to yelp. He just has to grab it. In a week he will jump three ft to grab the dummy. It work all the time. Cj

[crackerd]

No, he's not kidding about pliers. Others use beer bottlecaps or soda pull tabs or other handy "tools" such as an old notary public's stamp that will hold the dog's ear between it and allow pressure without a risk of puncturing the ear flap. I've also used the edge of a silver dollar and a steel guitar pick which fits over your thumb and gives easy dexterity for getting inside a dog's ear.

There is also a gentler kinder force fetch that I - and others who've chimed in - prefer that entails the conditioned hold, which is 90% of force fetch to begin with. But even with that qualifier, you still need to get the dog to open its mouth as a response to something you've done - not something you've said (as in a command) - without your having to open the mouth for the dog for it. Why? Because once the mouth is open (by the dog, not you), and you put a paint roller or dowel in it and simultaneously command "Fetch!", the dog starts at that moment to understand how it turns the pressure (ear pinch) off. And a few more ear pinches, instead of a few more weeks, or months of ear pinches, and you've got a dog ready to take on the rest of force fetch in the retriever sense: stick fetch and walking fetch, which very rarely cause you to revert to the ear pinch.

Someone who is an expert should explain the difference between discomfort and pain and how you know when or what someone else is feeling and where it fits into this structure.

Ezzy, you're anthropomorphizing it by saying "how do you know when or what someone else is feeling" - and you/we really can't conclusively know a dog's threshhold for pain. They're all different, which is why this thread started in the first place. The original poster has a "hard case" Lab. That's usually an oxymoron, Labs are smart and generally very easy to force fetch because once again, we're not force fetching them to get them to retrieve, but teaching them to handle pressure. Alas, more pressure by the original poster may not make his force fetching any easier. What he's got to look for is a pressure point that will cause the dog to, yes, succumb to pain and/or discomfort and open its mouth, usually to let out a yelp. Again, the answer's not necessarily going to be more pressure. Think about oldtime birddog trainers who blew in a dog's ear - and others today who still do - to get it to release a bird. Essentially the same principle. And use of the e-collar makes two: If used correctly, you're startling or suprising the dog with stimulation far more than doing any harm or damage to it.

MG

[cjhills]

If How it is done why not put on the collar and fry him 'til he yelps. Cj

[crackerd]

You might put that question to someone who uses the e-collar for force fetching. Not a lot of retriever trainers do, though some overlay it after force fetch has been completed. Evan? Also, to let you know, "fry" ain't in the retriever training vocabulary any more for e-collar use.

MG

[whoadog]

topher40 wrote:
Use pliers, even ceramic tile nippers for the most stubborn of dogs that dont respond.
I really hope this is meant as a joke.

When I was first taught force breaking, the word "pain" was used. The the first step in the technique was to make the dog uncomfortable enough, read that: in enough pain, that they opened their mouth to make noise and a buck (wooden dowel rod) was inserted in the dog's mouth. This is the main reason I was taught the nerve (toe) hitch. Properly applied, a nerve hitch gives the trainer a range of pressure that is relatively easier to control by simply increasing the tension on the cord. Releasing the tension also gave the dog instant feedback much like a collar. By the way, the man I learned from is a nationally known retriever trainer that has produced more field champions than you can shake a stick at and even a national champ or two.

Ezzy, you're anthropomorphizing it by saying "how do you know when or what someone else is feeling" - and you/we really can't conclusively know a dog's threshhold for pain. They're all different, which is why this thread started in the first place.

Not only do I agree with crackerd, I will also postulate, even at the risk of censure, that there is a time and place for exteme pain in dog training. Dogs don't have a sense of "morality". They don't see pain as good or evil as humans do. Obviously, a training program that is heavy in pain will usually produce dogs that are fearful and unsure of themselves. However, a good dose of "don't ever do that again!" can yield rather spectacular results in certain dogs. I saw this first-hand, again while working with the trainer I earlier refered to, with a field trial lab prospect. The dog was about a year and a half old and was a hard going, promising prospect. We were working on long double marks with a flyer and a thrown duck and finishing with a 300 yard blind. The boss was trying to send the dog for the thrown duck and he wanted the flyer. The dog acted like he did not know what he was supposed to do when he obviously did. On the third try when the dog refused to do as he had been trained to do, the boss burned him into the ground until he was squealing and urinating on himself. It was at least a 30 second burn on max. Dog hopped up when it was all over, sat where he was supposed to, did the marks perfectly and then did the long blind with about three faults. It was one of the most impressive pieces of dog work I have ever seen. That particular dog went on to become a field champion and came close as a five year old to winning it all. Now, before anyone starts to pull the walls down on me, I am not debating the morality of this type of training, only its effectiveness. With some dogs that tend toward alpha in the extreme, putting them in their place, sometimes rather intensely, is necessary to unlock the dog's greatest potential. After all, with a dog there is only leader and followers. If we fail to recognize this fact as trainers refuse our role as alpha, with certain dogs, we will fail to train to the dog to be a consistent performer, and in some cases, create a dog with beavioral issues like biting and dominant mounting.

[cjhills]

I absolutely agree that sometimes extreme methods have spectacular results. But I want the dog to know I want him to grab the dummy before I force him to do it. Cj

[Double Shot Banks]

I have not read the other replies (and really should)but here is my imput. my father and grandfather always used the dull flathead end of a nail, its easier on your thumb and it easier to make the dog feel it i guess,
Isaac and Banks

[Doc E]

If How it is done why not put on the collar and fry him 'til he yelps.
Cj

Because FF isn't just one step. It's a progression of skills.

Because you :
1. Teach (HOLD)
2. Enforce (ear pinch)
3. Reinforce (ecollar)



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[birddogger]

I am fairly new at "ff' so I am certainly no expert at it and don't pretend to give expert advice, but I have had good success by following Evan's and Brenda Roe's advise/method. I wholeheartedly agree with the comment that crackerd made about teaching a proper hold is probably 90 percent of the success you will have and it is done without any discomfort or pain and very little pressure. From my limited experience, once that is fully accomplished, you are almost there and the rest should go fairly smoothly if you are following a proven method ["Smart fetch"]. Also, I have not had to cause a lot of discomfort to the dog to finish it. I do overlay the e-collar once the dog has it down pat so I will have a way to reinforce the commands in the field if I should need to.

Charlie

[birddogger]

If How it is done why not put on the collar and fry him 'til he yelps.
Cj

Because you :
1. Train (HOLD)
2. Enforce (ear pinch)
3. Reinforce (ecollar)



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I guess we were typing at the same time Doc E and you beat me to it and made the point in a whole lot less words than I did.

Charlie

[Doc E]

I have not read the other replies (and really should)but here is my imput. my father and grandfather always used the dull flathead end of a nail, its easier on your thumb and it easier to make the dog feel it i guess,
Isaac and Banks

What does your training program book say about it ? ? ? ?



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[Munster]

It's been my experience that seldom is "not enough pressure" the problem.
It's more a matter of timing and finesse.
You don't need to apply sooooo much pressure that the dog vocalizes (thus opens mouth).
Pinch the ear, use the same technique that you used for HOLD to get the roller in the mouth,
then immediately release the ear pinch pressure and give genuine praise.
The dog will soon learn that obeying the FETCH command will get rid of the discomfort from the ear pinch.
NOTICE that I said 'discomfort' --- and not 'pain'.

.

I agree with Doc on this one and i am shocked at some of the methods that are being recommended by some of you. Pliers! Really!
In my experience there is a reason she isnt opening up and I would be willing to bet that she doesnt understand yet exactly what you want. I wish you would consider getting a hold of someone in your area that can have a VISUAL of the situation before you create something that didnt need to happen.

[Duckdon]

Whow......Oh My.......Seldom do posts on these forms grip me like some of the ideas that others have proposed on this thread. I said it before, get some local hands on assistance with your FF style if your not getting what you want. It ain't that hard but you may benefit from an hour of professional training. Where are you located? I will be in Boise, Idaho and Green River, Wyoming next week if that would help. I am not a pro but I bet I can help. FYI: I don't use a pliers. Just my opinion. Don

[campgsp]

I agree with the last post. A second visual opinion never hurts.

One other thing you can try is switch ears. If your a righy when someone punches you in your right arm it hurts less then your left and visversa. So it might just do the trick.

At first you want the dog to yelp so there mouth opens to shove the dowel in.
I skimmed and saw someone said not to do that. After you get the dog understanding that's what you want from them less pressure is needed.

[Doc E]

At first you want the dog to yelp so there mouth opens to shove the dowel in.
I skimmed and saw someone said not to do that.

I think that the majority of us who have FF a few dogs (and have moved on to modern methods) will disagree with that.
There were certainly more than one 'someone' who siad vocalization was not needed.


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[cjhills]

If How it is done why not put on the collar and fry him 'til he yelps.
Cj

Because you :
1. Train (HOLD)
2. Enforce (ear pinch)
3. Reinforce (ecollar)



.

I guess we were typing at the same time Doc E and you beat me to it and made the point in a whole lot less words than I did.

Charlie

I train:
1. grab, Eventually fetch
2. Hold
3. carry
What are you enforcing in no. 2 if he doesn't know to take the dummy. The only real pressure is when he needs to pick the dummy off the floor,most dogs have issues with that. When they are done they love retrieving.
I always think why not do the whole thing with the collar. But it is hard to teach a old dog new tricks. Cj

[campgsp]

At first you want the dog to yelp so there mouth opens to shove the dowel in.
I skimmed and saw someone said not to do that.

I think that the majority of us who have FF a few dogs (and have moved on to modern methods) will disagree with that.
There were certainly more than one 'someone' who siad vocalization was not needed.


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Ya and a majority of the "modern" methods that people play follow the leader with are too time consuming and take longer to reach the goal then what's always worked better. Sometimes there is just a more logical approach to training.

[Chukar12]

If you force fetch enough dogs you will come across one far more resistant than any of the others. If you have not force fetched any; timing, leverage and control can all be hampered by inexperience and apprehension. This is 100% a compulsion exercise, we are forcing a dog to do something rather than allowing it to occur naturally and it is done by design in many instances, for some it is not just a fetch exercise it is an establishment of dominance and or control as a manner for enhancing other training and behaviors.

There are many different ways to do it, some methods use a table with an anchored collar to keep a resistant dog from pulling away. Some methods count on previously built on commands to control the dog. In no case do I believe that you need to employ a technique that can do physical harm. We aren't trying to break the skin, or blood vessels, or get vocalization for that matter. The open the mouth portion of this should be completed quickly. A rivet on the collar, the buckle, or other blunt point simply apply pressure directly to nerve endings rather than spreading out the pressure. The quicker you get past that initial argument the better...the longer you wrestle over it, the more difficult is the process for you and the dog.

I personally feel this is one of the training steps that you should not rely on simple printed material for, the very minimum is a quality video program like Evan Graham's or a face to face training session with a pro. I live near the Dobb's training center and the whole thing was scary to me until I watched one of their trainers work through the process.

[ACooper]

If you force fetch enough dogs you will come across one far more resistant than any of the others. If you have not force fetched any; timing, leverage and control can all be hampered by inexperience and apprehension. This is 100% a compulsion exercise, we are forcing a dog to do something rather than allowing it to occur naturally and it is done by design in many instances, for some it is not just a fetch exercise it is an establishment of dominance and or control as a manner for enhancing other training and behaviors.

There are many different ways to do it, some methods use a table with an anchored collar to keep a resistant dog from pulling away. Some methods count on previously built on commands to control the dog. In no case do I believe that you need to employ a technique that can do physical harm. We aren't trying to break the skin, or blood vessels, or get vocalization for that matter. The open the mouth portion of this should be completed quickly. A rivet on the collar, the buckle, or other blunt point simply apply pressure directly to nerve endings rather than spreading out the pressure. The quicker you get past that initial argument the better...the longer you wrestle over it, the more difficult is the process for you and the dog.

I personally feel this is one of the training steps that you should not rely on simple printed material for, the very minimum is a quality video program like Evan Graham's or a face to face training session with a pro. I live near the Dobb's training center and the whole thing was scary to me until I watched one of their trainers work through the process.

Excellent post.

[whoadog]

for some it is not just a fetch exercise it is an establishment of dominance and or control as a manner for enhancing other training and behaviors.

Great response all the way around. I agree in whole. This particular quote is precisely what I was referring to earlier. Sometimes the dog needs to be put in its place. Not to do so is more cruel than putting the dog into some real discomfort.

[Sharon]

I hope PETA doesn't read this thread.

[Chukar12]

Sharon...I am betting that YOU TUBE keeps them busy

[thedogmother]

I had to go to a botttle cap - mine is so tough nothing else worked.

[Doc E]

On a different forum, regarding "pressure during FF", Evan Graham said : "The correct answer is not to overwhelm any dog with pressure, but rather condition them to pressure.
Look for anything in their demeanor that shows they recognize the presence of pressure, and then show them how to turn it off.
Avoid cranking up the pressure, or using harsh tools
This takes time to do right."



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[Double Shot Banks]

I have not read the other replies (and really should)but here is my imput. my father and grandfather always used the dull flathead end of a nail, its easier on your thumb and it easier to make the dog feel it i guess,
Isaac and Banks

What does your training program book say about it ? ? ? ?



.

I have not read that particular part of my program, only briefly. I believe it uses the dogs collar or just your fingers. is there something bad about it?

[Doc E]

my father and grandfather always used the dull flathead end of a nail, its easier on your thumb and it easier to make the dog feel it i guess,
Isaac and Banks

I believe it uses the dogs collar or just your fingers. is there something bad about it?[/quote]

I use thumb presure of the ear on the tang of the collar. Three fingers under the collar (for control) one finger for ear placement and thumb for pressure on the tang.
Evan Graham says, and I agree, that you don't need nails, bottle caps, pliers or any other 'tools".

Take a look at my post above, where I quoted Evan.


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