VIDEO: The Flow of the Hunt

[Yuma.Az.Hunter]

Here is a short video of some of the dogs we worked this past weekend. When I talk about "flow" I mean the excitement of the hunt. As the handler, I'm responsible for controlling the dog's excitement level. I want to see all the dogs style, intensity and drive but I can't let him go over the top (get overexcited) and blow out. Because these dogs have not been trained or handled with e-collars or verbal commands, it's real important that I read them well.

http://vimeo.com/61679149

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

So do you force fetch your dogs or no? If not, do you have any extra info on how you train a dog to retrieve? I have. 5 month old lab I'm training to hunt. And I don't like ff. any info would be helpful because this forum is... Indifferent towards any other training method. To say the least. But do you have a retriever book or maybe some videos on how to help train a pup to retrieve, remain steady, work multiple birds etc? I'd love to know thank you. And I enjoyed your videos. Really insightful. I like your training method.

[Higgins]

Here is a short video of some of the dogs we worked this past weekend. When I talk about "flow" I mean the excitement of the hunt. As the handler, I'm responsible for controlling the dog's excitement level. I want to see all the dogs style, intensity and drive but I can't let him go over the top (get overexcited) and blow out. Because these dogs have not been trained or handled with e-collars or verbal commands, it's real important that I read them well.


Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

So do you force fetch your dogs or no? If not, do you have any extra info on how you train a dog to retrieve? I have. 5 month old lab I'm training to hunt. And I don't like ff. any info would be helpful because this forum is... Indifferent towards any other training method. To say the least. But do you have a retriever book or maybe some videos on how to help train a pup to retrieve, remain steady, work multiple birds etc? I'd love to know thank you. And I enjoyed your videos. Really insightful. I like your training method.

Hello Yuma,

No, I don't need force fetch. That would work against the foundation of my method. My training is based on what naturally motives the dogs, trust and success. It's why dogs, wolves, lions, social predators in general, form hunting groups or packs. I didn't make this stuff up, it's just the nature of the beasts. I don't fight the truth, I accept it and work within their rules.

There are two very important things to remember here. One is that for dogs, all learning is based on association. It's how the predator mind is wired. The other thing to remember is that dog's see the retrieve as chasing birds. That's why I only teach if after a dog is steady. Even then, in the beginning, he is not allowed every retrieve. Some, I go out and get while he remains steady. I then bring it back to him and share it. I don't want him associating the retrieve (chase) with the drop of the bird. When the bird hits the ground, I want him to wonder if it might be his turn. Basically, the only consistent association to retrieving (chasing the bird) he has left, is the word "fetch". When I say that, he knows he always gets to go.

Here is a link to an article I wrote a while ago. It describes how I help dogs learn to choose to retrieve.

http://higginsgundogs.com/2014/retrieve ... -the-prey/

Hope this helps.


Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[mnaj_springer]

Higgins, I have two questions.

1) What do you do (logistically) when a dog breaks to retrieve without or before being sent?

2) How do you get a dog to retrieve that will not pick up birds? Maybe it's a dog that runs to the bird but does not pick it up.

[Trekmoor]

Yuma , you say you have a 5 months old lab pup that you want to work as a hunter and a retriever ? That is easily done without using F.F. . For info on how to train for this I suggest you buy a couple of British gundog book or videos but not on lab training . Buy the info about spaniel training and let your pup hunt a bit wider than we do here.

I know of no British spaniel or retriever trainers who train using F.F., most of them will never have done it so any book or video you buy probably will not even mention it. We still manage to have dogs that retrieve game very willingly though !

This is my 2 years old Brittany bitch with the first ever goose she had ever seen or scented. She retrieved it with hardly any hesitation at all.
Sorry the picture quality is poor, I'm rubbish with a camera !



F.F. does work well , so does a "natural" retrieve if a pup is brought up to do them.

I disagree with Brad on retrieving. I actively encourage my pups to run in for training dummies and if a pup is a bit "iffy" about retrieving game I let it run -in for birds too once or twice. Doing this definitely can lead to having an unsteady dog if some care is not taken but the pup will always want to retrieve and it will retrieve with considerable enthusiasm too.

Bill T.

[DonF]

Ya know, the more I read from our European friends method's here, the more I think they have better system for training bird dog's! Like reading you guy's stuff a lot!

[cjhills]

I have read this thread with interest. You realize, I am sure that what you state as facts are in reality only theory. ie: what you believe.
First, I do not believe a dogs goal is necessarily to get the bird in his mouth. I am convinced that some dogs chase because it is fun for them. Many dogs quit and leave the quarry when they catch it. I also do not think they think of retrieving as chasing. Many dogs will naturally, with no training, stop and watch a bird fly away. But this same dog will immediately go after and retrieve one that falls.
Second, I have never believed that dogs hold or manage birds. My theory is in natures scheme of things it is necessary for the predator to be successful a least occasionally. The prey has three options which are hide, run or fly. If in the case of birds if they chose to fly the canine predator would never catch one. Of course when man entered the game the playing field was leveled considerably. But, still if birds flew when the dog was thirty yards away few would be shot. If they run occasionally the canine would catch some. More likely to catch one if it hides. So, Mother nature designed some birds to hide allowing the canine critters to eat. But, if you were not there with the gun most birds would get away. Dogs can not naturally manage birds for the gun, simply because guns are not natural. The more likely scenario is you get your self in position to shoot and flush the bird or send the dog and experience teaches you to generally be in the right place.
The comment that no American dogs are fit for breeding is simply not true. Thousands of very good bird dogs are bred every year and they keep getting better.
I think your videos are interesting and your training program is ok but not all that different from what anybody else is doing.
Not you or me or anybody else really knows what goes on in a dogs head and we can only guess........................Cj

[Higgins]

I have read this thread with interest. You realize, I am sure that what you state as facts are in reality only theory. ie: what you believe.
First, I do not believe a dogs goal is necessarily to get the bird in his mouth. I am convinced that some dogs chase because it is fun for them. Many dogs quit and leave the quarry when they catch it. I also do not think they think of retrieving as chasing. Many dogs will naturally, with no training, stop and watch a bird fly away. But this same dog will immediately go after and retrieve one that falls.
Second, I have never believed that dogs hold or manage birds. My theory is in natures scheme of things it is necessary for the predator to be successful a least occasionally. The prey has three options which are hide, run or fly. If in the case of birds if they chose to fly the canine predator would never catch one. Of course when man entered the game the playing field was leveled considerably. But, still if birds flew when the dog was thirty yards away few would be shot. If they run occasionally the canine would catch some. More likely to catch one if it hides. So, Mother nature designed some birds to hide allowing the canine critters to eat. But, if you were not there with the gun most birds would get away. Dogs can not naturally manage birds for the gun, simply because guns are not natural. The more likely scenario is you get your self in position to shoot and flush the bird or send the dog and experience teaches you to generally be in the right place.
The comment that no American dogs are fit for breeding is simply not true. Thousands of very good bird dogs are bred every year and they keep getting better.
I think your videos are interesting and your training program is ok but not all that different from what anybody else is doing.
Not you or me or anybody else really knows what goes on in a dogs head and we can only guess........................Cj

Hello cjhills,

You made a statement: "First, I do not believe a dogs goal is necessarily to get the bird in his mouth." Let's allow the pointing dog to answer your question with the real question. It is as simple as this. "Why do I point?"

I believe American dogs are fit for breeding to the sports and games we have here. My goals and expectations are different and I breed and train to these goals.



Brad Higgins

[mnaj_springer]

Higgins, I have two questions.

1) What do you do (logistically) when a dog breaks to retrieve without or before being sent?

2) How do you get a dog to retrieve that will not pick up birds? Maybe it's a dog that runs to the bird but does not pick it up.

??

[Higgins]

Higgins, I have two questions.

1) What do you do (logistically) when a dog breaks to retrieve without or before being sent?

2) How do you get a dog to retrieve that will not pick up birds? Maybe it's a dog that runs to the bird but does not pick it up.

??

Hey mnaj_springer,

I'm working dogs this morning. Good questions. I'll get back on the computer later today.

Thanks,

Brad Higgins

[Vernal Pike]

Second, I have never believed that dogs hold or manage birds.........................Cj

When a dog learns to make a wide circle on a running pheasant in order to pin the bird between it and the gun, the dog has managed the bird.

[ezzy333]

Second, I have never believed that dogs hold or manage birds.........................Cj

When a dog learns to make a wide circle on a running pheasant in order to pin the bird between it and the gun, the dog has managed the bird.

And what dog told you he was pinning it between itself and the gun. I have had several tell me they figured if the bird was running they were going to get in front of it even if there was no one or a gun present. Watch what happens when they are out playing or just running and see what they do differently.

And for Brad's question dogs point when they stop and gather themselves for the leap that will allow them to catch the bird before it has a chance to fly. Practically all predators do that. They get a much better location as well as being able to direct their leap more accuratelyif they are completely still for a minute. Kind of like you do when you shoot or do anything that needs precision. It is fun to watch a fox hunt mice under the snow and see them point before diving into the snow.

Ezzy.

[cjhills]

Why do dogs point ? I do not really know and neither do you. We can only speculate.
I do not buy the circling thing either since a health rooster pheasant can easily out run a dog who has to trail him.........................Cj

[Elkhunter]

I believe American dogs are fit for breeding to the sports and games we have here. My goals and expectations are different and I breed and train to these goals.

Brad that is complete and utter bull crap! And you know it! There are literally thousands and thousands of AMERICAN bred dogs that are bred solely for wild bird hunters!

From what I have seen of your videos and dogs your goals and expectations are super simple to reach! Nothing impressive about a plodding 50 yard dog.

Is your goal to train a dog to hunt wild birds?!? Congrats that's what EVERYONES goal is! Only difference is mine can also compete in games and win.

Your selling kool aide! And some are buying lol!

[Trekmoor]

Concerning why birds will hold for a point, could the following not be the case ? Covey birds in particular often stay very tight when a dog, a predator, points towards them. Foxes and cats both try to catch the very first bird that jumps into flight so not being the first bird to rise could be a survival instinct well worth having.

I have seen grouse caught by pointing dogs as they began to take to wing . Some dogs are very fast and only too accurate when doing this ! I once owned a Labrador that could take pheasants as they rose . If the bird took just an instant too long to gain height she had it !
Birds have had millions of years to learn that the first bird to rise could be the first bird caught. Maybe that is why they often hold for a point ? It is the birds that run from the point that can cause problems.

When I began with the pointing breeds many judges gave high marks to dogs that "pinned" a bird with a point. Personally I don't think a bird can be pinned ....unless the bird is too afraid to move a muscle. Not all birds are that afraid.

Bill T.

[Griffonpoint]

Yuma , you say you have a 5 months old lab pup that you want to work as a hunter and a retriever ? That is easily done without using F.F. . For info on how to train for this I suggest you buy a couple of British gundog book or videos but not on lab training . Buy the info about spaniel training and let your pup hunt a bit wider than we do here.

I know of no British spaniel or retriever trainers who train using F.F., most of them will never have done it so any book or video you buy probably will not even mention it. We still manage to have dogs that retrieve game very willingly though !

This is my 2 years old Brittany bitch with the first ever goose she had ever seen or scented. She retrieved it with hardly any hesitation at all.

F.F. does work well , so does a "natural" retrieve if a pup is brought up to do them.


Bill T.

Bill, it's nice to see people who still effectively and competently train their dogs to retrieve reliably and enthusiastically without using Force methods.

[mnaj_springer]

I see where you're coming from Bill, but why don't sparrows or crows hold? I think a point we forget is these birds evolved to fill a niche as ground feeders and cannot fly as far or as nimbly as other birds so flight becomes a last resort.

I also do not believe dogs hold birds, but rather birds hold dogs on point. Unless of course they are flushing breeds, in which case, those dogs are not frozen stiff with fear like those pointy dogs!

[Higgins]

I believe American dogs are fit for breeding to the sports and games we have here. My goals and expectations are different and I breed and train to these goals.

Brad that is complete and utter bull crap! And you know it! There are literally thousands and thousands of AMERICAN bred dogs that are bred solely for wild bird hunters!

From what I have seen of your videos and dogs your goals and expectations are super simple to reach! Nothing impressive about a plodding 50 yard dog.

Is your goal to train a dog to hunt wild birds?!? Congrats that's what EVERYONES goal is! Only difference is mine can also compete in games and win.

Your selling kool aide! And some are buying lol!

Hello Elkhunter,

My statement is true. Hunting wild birds, released birds at preserves, early release birds at plantations etc, are all hunting and that is called a sport. As far as plodding 50 yard dogs, my dogs are of Embercombe breeding. Bred to hunt wild grouse on the wide open moors of Scotland and northern England.

I think it would help if I explain what I'm doing and what my goals are. First, we're comparing apples to oranges. As I said, American bred dogs are bred for the sports (hunting) and competitions available here in the states. My sport is not field trials, hunt test or any other competitive events. My sport is unique. I am training falconry/gun dog. There are no tests or events. The dogs I train and breed must of course, possess the ability to be steady to wing, shot and fall. They must honor and naturally retrieve. But in addition, they must manage and hold wild birds while the falcon is released and mounts up. They must flush/stop on command, and also be able to root up and flush bunnies (no chasing) for the shortwings.

All my dogs are imports because these dogs, many bred by falconers and hunted on wild grouse on the moors of Scotland and northern England, possess the natural biddability and cooperative nature required to work at these levels.

If anyone comes up with a trial or hunt test where dogs can showcase these talents, I'm in. lol

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[mnaj_springer]

Don't you think it's slightly narcissistic to believe your "sport" is that unique?

Also, did you get a chance to answer my questions from earlier? It seems a trainer of your caliber would have no problem with those questions.

[Elkhunter]

Sorry to burst your bubble Brad but your "sport" still uses American bred FT dogs with a ton of success. I am very very close friends with many avid falconers that not only use their American Bred All Age dogs to compete in FT's but also use them with their falcons. And they are very good at it. Believe me I get the pictures sent to me every week of their falcons killing WILD game in Utah and Idaho. So what you think is so special and requires this dog we can all only dream of, is accomplished by a lot of my friends that do it with American Bred Field Trial dogs. Week in and week out.

And also as a dog trainer on a gundog forum, why would you be advocating all these tips and training techniques when you just said they are for falconry and not wild bird hunting over a gun? Which would represent like 1/10 of 1% of the people who probably even hunt with a bird dog? I am sure your methods and thought process would be a lot more welcome on a falconry forum etc?!?

[SCT]

C'mon Brad, do you think you could fly a falcon over this point?? This is my dog Holly with the puppy trying to tempt her away from her job. You have to watch to the end to see the slip appear some 40-50 yards out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VHO-3j4rus

You know me Brad, I've been a falconer for over 30 years, tell me this isn't an excellent falconry dog! The natural retrieving pup, that you saw point and chase earlier, will be just like her when the time is right.

By the way, I know the dogs you speak of, and they are well bred, though different from mine.

Best regards,

Steve Tait

[Griffonpoint]

You guys are really good at taking little bits of offending text and attacking it without addressing the whole statement and without considering the overall context.

I can't see anywhere where Brad states that FT or American bred dogs can't find birds or be hunted over. He states that these dogs are bred for specific hunting games and this is true. That many people choose to take these dogs and successfully hunt over them doesn't alter his point.
And that some folks manage to keep dogs of that breeding Steady isn't a secret.

Steve, as you know, Brad has trained many dogs for falconers, many of them with American FT breeding. I don't believe that he has said anything about those dogs not doing the job and even doing it well. The difference is in the dogs' independence/cooperation and the tools required to get the job done.

The dogs that he is importing certainly have the leg and drive (is 3/4 of a mile considered a 50yd plodder?), but they don't require an ecollar or heavy obedience to keep them connected. Ecollars are rare in the UK and their dogs are generally more biddable. That's how they breed them there, I believe that someone from the UK on this forum likes to say, "Breed for the best, train the rest". We breed them here to run with ecollars. Oh, I know many here will try to jump on me with both feet, rabbling on about how ecollars aren't allowed in competition and testing, lol, but that's a very dishonest argument. The overwhelming majority of FT bred dogs are trained with them and hunted with them---so they are essentially bred to the collar. I believe that Brad prefers to train without them.

[Higgins]

Hello Steve,

Nice dog you have there and you could certainly fly a longwing over her. But I'm talking about a bigger picture. I'm talking about a method of training and handling that creates a single dog possessing all these abilities. Steady to wing, shot and fall, honor, retrieve and effectively hunt birds and fur with falcons and hawks. All of this without the use of ecollars in training or handling. That's a big order and there are not a lot of them around.

Talk about leg, these Embercombe dogs are driven!

Brad Higgins

[SCT]

I understand Brad, but you know why there are not a lot of them around.........because of the effort (and time) it takes to get to that level of training. I would say this would be a much bigger reason than anything to do with specific line of pointers. My high tailed dogs could all be trained to do what you are working towards with your line, just no need for it for myself. It would be a unique dog, for a unique person. You like a challenge, I get that. I think it's the way you come off that ruffles feathers on this forum. Not that there's anything wrong with that The vast majority of bird hunters would be happy with a dog that holds point until they get there to flush, then bust open at the flush..... But you already know that.

I wish you well in your training and hunting endeavors,

Steve

[Yuma.Az.Hunter]

Yuma , you say you have a 5 months old lab pup that you want to work as a hunter and a retriever ? That is easily done without using F.F. . For info on how to train for this I suggest you buy a couple of British gundog book or videos but not on lab training . Buy the info about spaniel training and let your pup hunt a bit wider than we do here.

I know of no British spaniel or retriever trainers who train using F.F., most of them will never have done it so any book or video you buy probably will not even mention it. We still manage to have dogs that retrieve game very willingly though !

This is my 2 years old Brittany bitch with the first ever goose she had ever seen or scented. She retrieved it with hardly any hesitation at all.
Sorry the picture quality is poor, I'm rubbish with a camera !



F.F. does work well , so does a "natural" retrieve if a pup is brought up to do them.

I disagree with Brad on retrieving. I actively encourage my pups to run in for training dummies and if a pup is a bit "iffy" about retrieving game I let it run -in for birds too once or twice. Doing this definitely can lead to having an unsteady dog if some care is not taken but the pup will always want to retrieve and it will retrieve with considerable enthusiasm too.

Bill T.

Well hey thank you for the friendly advice!! That's great if you know of any books or anything specific that would be great but I will look into it. Thank u!!

[Yuma.Az.Hunter]

Yuma , you say you have a 5 months old lab pup that you want to work as a hunter and a retriever ? That is easily done without using F.F. . For info on how to train for this I suggest you buy a couple of British gundog book or videos but not on lab training . Buy the info about spaniel training and let your pup hunt a bit wider than we do here.

I know of no British spaniel or retriever trainers who train using F.F., most of them will never have done it so any book or video you buy probably will not even mention it. We still manage to have dogs that retrieve game very willingly though !

This is my 2 years old Brittany bitch with the first ever goose she had ever seen or scented. She retrieved it with hardly any hesitation at all.

F.F. does work well , so does a "natural" retrieve if a pup is brought up to do them.


Bill T.

Bill, it's nice to see people who still effectively and competently train their dogs to retrieve reliably and enthusiastically without using Force methods.

I agree!! It seems 90% of the people on the forum cater only to ff and the people that love it and agree that it's the one and only way to properly train a dog to hunt. No offense meant to anybody by that btw. Just an observation.

[whatsnext]

Don't you think it's slightly narcissistic to believe your "sport" is that unique?

Also, did you get a chance to answer my questions from earlier? It seems a trainer of your caliber would have no problem with those questions.

I am curious too, what do you do about a refusal?

[Higgins]

Don't you think it's slightly narcissistic to believe your "sport" is that unique?

Also, did you get a chance to answer my questions from earlier? It seems a trainer of your caliber would have no problem with those questions.

I am curious too, what do you do about a refusal?

Hello whatsnext,

I'd be glad to discuss your question. If you would, please private message me. It would make it easier to have a focused conversation.

Thanks,

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[Luminary Setters]

Actually, I would like to hear how refusals are handled too