E-Collar Problems

[robert_lh]

Hey everybody, I am pretty new here and new to owning a gun dog. I just got my eight month old Brit Male Cooper back from the trainer for his first month of Birds Birds Birds! He loved it and he is learning a lot, but he still has a long way to go. I am experiencing one problem in particular with E-Collar work. I have had him on the invisible fence since he was five months and he minds it very well, but now in the field when I give him the here command and check him with the chord and bump him with the collar he looks like he's afraid to move because of the fence. I can ask the trainer, but I wanted some input from others who may have experienced the same issue. Thanks all!

[madmurph]

Robert do a search on here. Fairly recently I remember reading of this same problem and some solutions and I'm quite sure that it was on this forum. I only have a few minutes and don't have time to do a search right now.

[Doc E]

1. Personally, I wopuld NEVER own an 'invisible fence'.
2. How was the dog trained for the "HERE" command ?



.

[Sharon]

Robert:

There may be some info here that would help.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=34637&p=327061&hil ... ce#p327061

[robert_lh]

He was started with a check chord. I would prefer not to have the invisible fence, but it's the only practical option in my situation. I'm just afraid I may have made a mess of training by using one. I was just hoping to find someone else who may have experienced the same problem.

[robert_lh]

Robert:

There may be some info here that would help.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=34637&p=327061&hil ... ce#p327061

Thanks Sharon that is very helpful. I am going to to try a lower level on the e-collar that is further away from the correction provided by the fence. I'll do just check chord tomorrow and try both again with the lower level later in the week.

[Jagerdawg]

Robert you are talking about trying a lower level of stimulation with the e collar. How did you pick the level of stimulation that you have used? I don't know how others do it but I personally use the lowest level of stimulation the dog will acknowledge. If I need to I can always turn up the stimulation. Good luck with everything and happy hunting

[robert_lh]

Robert you are talking about trying a lower level of stimulation with the e collar. How did you pick the level of stimulation that you have used? I don't know how others do it but I personally use the lowest level of stimulation the dog will acknowledge. If I need to I can always turn up the stimulation. Good luck with everything and happy hunting

I picked the lowest levels he would respond to. I have the Dogtra 1900 and I am using a 15 right now (it goes all the way up to 127).

[Sharon]

My God! 127!!! That has got to be a marketing ploy. LOL

[robert_lh]

A little update on today's training. I turned the e-collar down to 6 and used the check chord. "Here" was doing well. Walking zig zags through the field. However, when the work was done and I was getting ready to leave he found a plastic bottle and he was gone his e-collar was off and the check chord as well. In this case I call "Here" and he keeps running around not minding my commands... very frustrating. He only came when I started walking back to the truck and he must of thought I was leaving him. I am not sure the e-collar would've helped in this situation, but I guess I will just have to leave it on him at all times. Is this just his puppy play attitude?

[Hoosierdaddy]

A little update on today's training. I turned the e-collar down to 6 and used the check chord. "Here" was doing well. Walking zig zags through the field. However, when the work was done and I was getting ready to leave he found a plastic bottle and he was gone his e-collar was off and the check chord as well. In this case I call "Here" and he keeps running around not minding my commands... very frustrating. He only came when I started walking back to the truck and he must of thought I was leaving him. I am not sure the e-collar would've helped in this situation, but I guess I will just have to leave it on him at all times. Is this just his puppy play attitude?

Your dog is blowing you off.It happens to most everybody.I have learned with my dogs the e-collar is on them switched on at all times that they are not in my yard or on leash.The e-collar was made for exactly what happened to you,it is an electronic checkcord.You call for him,if he does not turn in your direction right away nick him.He has to learn that coming to you is not an option.No need to get frustrated,but consistant recall on a pup is mandatory.It all goes back to never give a command that you cant enforce.

[robert_lh]

[Your dog is blowing you off.It happens to most everybody.I have learned with my dogs the e-collar is on them switched on at all times that they are not in my yard or on leash.The e-collar was made for exactly what happened to you,it is an electronic checkcord.You call for him,if he does not turn in your direction right away nick him.He has to learn that coming to you is not an option.No need to get frustrated,but consistant recall on a pup is mandatory.It all goes back to never give a command that you cant enforce.[/quote]

Thanks for the help. I am going to start him wearing it at all times. I just hope he doesn't keep confusing it with the fence. With time he will figure out the difference.

[cjhills]

The fence collar is much higher intensity then the e-collar. some dogs who are used to the fence collar freak when they first feel the e-collar. Go gently and try to give him time to work it out. If you enforce the "here" with the collar too often he will start to ignore the "here" wthout the collar. I try to call him when I know he wants to come at first or call him and walk away. Don't over do the here. I also sometimes use treats although he should be passed that. Should probably discuss this with your trainer. Cj

[ezzy333]

My impression from your post is that you are just giving arbitrary commands to see if he will do what you want. I know I may be wrong, and if I am remember I am not trying to scold you but rather just give you some advice that I have discovered over the years. Your pup is 8 months old. His purpose in the field is to find birds. the only way he will learn how is for you to walk with him but let him run and look where he wants to while you just walk with your mouth shut and the collar on but not being used. The collar is there for emergency purposes only. After more experience which maybe soon or several months yet it will be time to start training in the field. But for now most all training should be in the yard and not with birds involved. CC work very well as does a collar but both are for control purposes and they do not teach, but just reinforce the necessary commands that are needed as you hunt. If I want to train a pup to quarter which I don't do normally, but I would walk slowly one direction and when the pup has gone as far as you want it to then change directions and let the pup know you have changed, It will also change so it can stay in front of you. So you end up walking a zig-zag pattern through the field and watching to see what the pup is learning. I want the pup to learn to stay in front and not just do it when he is commanded. If I knew so much about where to find the birds I wouldn't need a dog.

Many people use e-collars on dogs that have an electric fence so it can be done. I haven't used one even though there is one here but I have never felt comfortable leaving the dogs out with just the underground fence, even though they do work well in most cases. One of my problems is they keep nothing out and that can be serious also. See what you can find and let us know how you are making out. But do think about giving the least number of voice commands possible and let the pup learn how to hunt without you trying to tell it how. Think you will get better results.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Nice post Ezzy.

[robert_lh]

Hey Ezzy I appreciate the great response. The work I am doing with him now is in the field by my house there aren't any birds involved. He recently got back from the trainer for a month who has access to birds and just let him hunt. In a couple of weeks the trainer wants me to come back and try some more birds. It was his opinion that he needed more obedience including "whoa" work so we can work on getting him to hold when we know he smells the birds. I have been doing both, but the "here" has been bothersome lately when he doesn't have the collar on. So today I left it on him at the park as well as training and guess what he found another plastic bottle and off he went. I burned him on 8 and called him with no response cranked it up to 12 and burned and called again and he was headed my direction in not time! All this time I have been reinforcing bad behavior by not having a way to enforce my commands, but today was a turn for the better. Also I think that since I have turned the level down he is starting to understand the difference between the fence and the e-collar. Thanks I appreciate the help!

[DonF]

there is only one reason he won't come when you nic him, he doesn't have to. Forget the, "I'm confused" cr*p. He doesn't come mostly because either a) he's doesn't want to or b) he doesn't have to. If you can't enforce a command, don't give it. Your dog loose with the e-collar on but not responding is obviously in a situation where it a) either doesn't know the command or b) knows it doesn't need to respond or c) is just blowing youi off because you taught it it could. But if you have the check cord in hand when you give the command and a nic, he has no choice of what to do. You call him, he doesn't respond and then you nic and drag him in at the same time. In that situation he's called and doesn't respond so he's nic'd and made to come in right away. Pay attention to what your training and get the timing down.

Your dog, I think you said you were out with and it grabbed a plastic bottle and ran off and wouldn't come when you called, your problem not his. You had no way to enforce a command you knew he doesn't respond to very well yet but gave the command anyway, pay attention to what your training. had the dog, wait, pup, been dragging it's check cord, you just shut up until it's, the cc, near you and you can get it. Step on it and he'll stop, pull on it and he will come. Help him out, he's your pupil.

[royta]

there is only one reason he won't come when you nic him, he doesn't have to. Forget the, "I'm confused" cr*p. He doesn't come mostly because either a) he's doesn't want to or b) he doesn't have to. If you can't enforce a command, don't give it. Your dog loose with the e-collar on but not responding is obviously in a situation where it a) either doesn't know the command or b) knows it doesn't need to respond or c) is just blowing youi off because you taught it it could. But if you have the check cord in hand when you give the command and a nic, he has no choice of what to do. You call him, he doesn't respond and then you nic and drag him in at the same time. In that situation he's called and doesn't respond so he's nic'd and made to come in right away. Pay attention to what your training and get the timing down.

Your dog, I think you said you were out with and it grabbed a plastic bottle and ran off and wouldn't come when you called, your problem not his. You had no way to enforce a command you knew he doesn't respond to very well yet but gave the command anyway, pay attention to what your training. had the dog, wait, pup, been dragging it's check cord, you just shut up until it's, the cc, near you and you can get it. Step on it and he'll stop, pull on it and he will come. Help him out, he's your pupil.

This is a great thread.

So it sounds like you're saying that even if your dog is misbehaving (or whatever), don't give a command to end the behavior unless you can actually enforce the command. Correct? Basically wait a few seconds (or whatever length of time) for when you are able to enforce the command before giving it. Right?

Thanks!! I love this site.

[robert_lh]

Thanks Don I appreciate your advice.

[DonF]

there is only one reason he won't come when you nic him, he doesn't have to. Forget the, "I'm confused" cr*p. He doesn't come mostly because either a) he's doesn't want to or b) he doesn't have to. If you can't enforce a command, don't give it. Your dog loose with the e-collar on but not responding is obviously in a situation where it a) either doesn't know the command or b) knows it doesn't need to respond or c) is just blowing youi off because you taught it it could. But if you have the check cord in hand when you give the command and a nic, he has no choice of what to do. You call him, he doesn't respond and then you nic and drag him in at the same time. In that situation he's called and doesn't respond so he's nic'd and made to come in right away. Pay attention to what your training and get the timing down.

Your dog, I think you said you were out with and it grabbed a plastic bottle and ran off and wouldn't come when you called, your problem not his. You had no way to enforce a command you knew he doesn't respond to very well yet but gave the command anyway, pay attention to what your training. had the dog, wait, pup, been dragging it's check cord, you just shut up until it's, the cc, near you and you can get it. Step on it and he'll stop, pull on it and he will come. Help him out, he's your pupil.

This is a great thread.

So it sounds like you're saying that even if your dog is misbehaving (or whatever), don't give a command to end the behavior unless you can actually enforce the command. Correct? Basically wait a few seconds (or whatever length of time) for when you are able to enforce the command before giving it. Right?

Thanks!! I love this site.

Yes. Having said that don't believe for one sec that many of us screw that up! What we don't do is do it over and over again.

[Sharon]

"So it sounds like you're saying that even if your dog is misbehaving (or whatever), don't give a command to end the behavior unless you can actually enforce the command. Correct? Basically wait a few seconds (or whatever length of time) for when you are able to enforce the command before giving it. Right?"

If you can remember that , you will be WELL on your way to a trained gun dog. (This should start at 8 weeks. ) I don't even call "Come" at 8 weeks unless I am going to go and get pup if he doesn't come.

[DonF]

When I get a new pup, I pick it up and before it even touch's the ground again it has a 10' check cord on. Very cheap, made of 1/4" cotton clothesline. No collar, it's tied around the neck so it can be adjusted every time I put it back on, they don't wear it in the house. Pup's learn early on to give to the check cord. I never call the pup unless I have the cc in hand, then I can guide it to me.

Bodie at about 9 wks.



Used to raise a couple litter's a year year's ago. When the pup's opened their eye's they got a short very light check cord put on the same as you see Bodies. They get used to it dragging over them and they teach each other to give to it as they grow. Pup's play and they will pounce on that short cord all the time. Very very important to check fit everyday!

[Sharon]

Excellent advice. I'm going to do that from now on.

[Wenaha]

A little update on today's training. I turned the e-collar down to 6 and used the check chord. "Here" was doing well. Walking zig zags through the field. However, when the work was done and I was getting ready to leave he found a plastic bottle and he was gone his e-collar was off and the check chord as well. In this case I call "Here" and he keeps running around not minding my commands... very frustrating. He only came when I started walking back to the truck and he must of thought I was leaving him. I am not sure the e-collar would've helped in this situation, but I guess I will just have to leave it on him at all times. Is this just his puppy play attitude?

Robert - I'll state some obvious and primary rules of training...

Never give a command that your dog has not been trained to know.

Never give a command that you are not in a position to enforce.

never fail to insist on compliance once you have given a commend.

Your dog is a PUPPY. Will be until about 2 years of age. Puppies are like kids - short attention spans. A puppy wants and needs to play and have fun and at the end of a training session some play time releases tension and gets the dog back to feeling good about you. If he was running around with the bottle you could have done or said nothing (thus not training your dog that he can ignore you when the training is over and the collar/checkcord is off). Or you could have anticipated his need for a bit of fun and stress release by throwing a dummy and running around with pup for a few minutes.

Not being critical. Trying to be helpful.

[slistoe]

Excellent advice. I'm going to do that from now on.

Straight from the Delmar Smith book and still as valid today as ever.

[buckeyebowman]

A little update on today's training. I turned the e-collar down to 6 and used the check chord. "Here" was doing well. Walking zig zags through the field. However, when the work was done and I was getting ready to leave he found a plastic bottle and he was gone his e-collar was off and the check chord as well. In this case I call "Here" and he keeps running around not minding my commands... very frustrating. He only came when I started walking back to the truck and he must of thought I was leaving him. I am not sure the e-collar would've helped in this situation, but I guess I will just have to leave it on him at all times. Is this just his puppy play attitude?

As for what I highlighted, don't think for a minute that your dog didn't know that. I'm free! Maybe he thought it meant he could just lark about and blow off some steam. I really like Wenaha's suggestion. You want the upshot of any training session to be fun for the dog. You want him to want to go hunting. I don't know how much time you have to spend on sessions, but you may need to parcel it up a little differently. And yes, leave the e-collar on the dog until you're in the vehicle or back home. That way, any situation that you encounter, you're prepared to do something about it.

[DonF]

Excellent advice. I'm going to do that from now on.

Straight from the Delmar Smith book and still as valid today as ever.

It certainly is. I have changed a few things of his to suit myself but have never changed that one.

[myerstenn]

Hey everybody, I am pretty new here and new to owning a gun dog. I just got my eight month old Brit Male Cooper back from the trainer for his first month of Birds Birds Birds! He loved it and he is learning a lot, but he still has a long way to go. I am experiencing one problem in particular with E-Collar work. I have had him on the invisible fence since he was five months and he minds it very well, but now in the field when I give him the here command and check him with the chord and bump him with the collar he looks like he's afraid to move because of the fence. I can ask the trainer, but I wanted some input from others who may have experienced the same issue. Thanks all!

Use the collar on the lowest setting,just a tickle and reinforce the command with the check cord until he understands what you want. He should understand what you want In a in 4/5 sessions.

[mobeasto123]

How the dog reacted when the trainer shocked the Dog with the E-collar ???

Do you train in the same area where the invisible fence is ?? The dog surely associate the whole area with the invisible fence

Is the Problem is you and a question of timing of everything ??? Suppose we exagerate things a bit, If you say to your dog Here 1 sec, yank the check cord 1 sec, and finally shock the dog 1 sec, you are just 2 sec too late and the dog will be scared because he just don't even know why you shock him and could think it's the invisible fence that just shocked him. Everything must be together

you sequence must be 1 Here Free of anything just to see if the dog will come on his own. if Yes pet him and ''Good Dog''.

if not thats were it get tricky, you have to make everything at once. Say Here, yank the Chord and press the button on the collar. You cannot be late, I mean you can't tell the command and 2 sec later press the button cause he didn't come. The dog must absolutely associate the Here command with the Check Chord and the collar at the same time.. Also you have to repeat the same thing till he begin to come. As soon he walk or run in your direction you have to stop. If he stop, start again with the CC and Collar no FREE that time. When the dog will come 3 times in a row wihtout any stimulation stop training to avoid errors by the dog you ust absolutely stop on a happy ending. The dog learn a lot more quickly like that.

I've had a similar problem when I was a newbie with my E-collar, At the trainer everything worked like a charm and when I got home I had to call my trainer maybe everyday for a big week nothing was working like a charm.

Now it's great and wouldn't separate form my E-collar.