Training without a bird launcher

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ScottE
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Training without a bird launcher

Post by ScottE » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:57 am

I really like the perfect start perfect finish training program but I can't afford a launcher right now. Is it possible to apply the same concepts without a launcher. For example using wild birds or releasing pen raised ones without dizzying them.

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whatsnext
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by whatsnext » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:26 am

You risk the chance of your pup catching a bird using anything other than pigeons in a launcher and i do not see how you could train on wild birds because it is not a controlled situation.Now with that being said i have trained dogs without a launcher and using pen raised birds and i believe the dogs learning curve for how close they could get to wild birds was longer than if i had a remote launcher and i feel i was to close to the dogs with having to have immediate access to the check cord if the birds decided to walk around the dogs instead of flying.While it may seem expensive now fixing problems will be worse and you can always sell training stuff when you are done with it unlike problems which i have found no one wants to buy :D

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Carolina Gundogs
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:17 pm

I visited a very successful professional just this week who consistently places on a National level in the AKC Horseback field trials. He (or they) do not believe in launchers. All of their training is done from Johnny House released quail (and/or Chuckar). They do a lot of check cord work on the free flying quail and go from there.

In their training program,strong free flying Johnny House quail are a must. They do not plant any birds.

If you choose to plant birds, you may end up with big problems if the dog catches the birds.

I hope this helps.

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Chukar12
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:33 pm

Scott,

First and foremost make sure that you keep in perspective the dangers of a caught bird. It certainly is not ideal but I would suggest more finished dogs than not have done just that. Catching a few will not hurt anything but avoid allowing it to be habitual. If you can find a source for barn/feral pigeons and build yourself a simple coop you can do all you need to do with carded pigeons and a check cord.

On a side note...I put catching birds with young dogs in two categories...

On the ground pounced on before they fly... imo this really retards the process of a dogs willingness to stand steady as opposed to...
running a bird down after the flush that has flown a respectable distance, through the years dogs that have been allowed to do the latter are far less problem than those who have gotten away with the former.
I often would fly a homing pigeon from a bag when I didn't have launchers after a dog flushed a carded bird...the two bird distraction was usually enough to prevent the run-down.

I bet you do fine with your pup if you do your best to follow the program you are looking at reasonably well doing the best you can with your imagination and what your finances allow.

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ScottE
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by ScottE » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:00 pm

thanks for the advice. Can you reccomend an affordable launcher?

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DonF
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by DonF » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:25 pm

Lion country Supply. I've got two and they work fine. If you can't afford one, use a friend and a check cord. You check cord the dog to the bird and keep the dog there while the friend kicks it up. Johnny house and well conditioned quail would work well but do you have the room for it? Also, you build a johnny house and get quail for it and you'll spend a lot more than for a launcher.
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RickB
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by RickB » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:37 pm

Launchers are great, but folks trained without launchers for a long time. 'course they had access to wild birds!

One thing you can research and try is carded birds. The idea is that you attach a large square of cardboard with a piece of twine to the leg of a pigeon. I suspect that a pheasant would work as well. You'll have to experiment with the size of cardboard. Go big to start and then trim it down to get the flight you want.

The idea is this: You place in the field the carded birds. They cannot fly well or far and you can retrieve them easily once they are tired. the birds are awake and aware and will fly if pressured too hard. You'll have to work the dog on a check cord, because once the birds are tired (or tangled in weeds) it is easy for the dog to catch them. So, Let the dog do what the dog will do. Too much pressure and the bird flies away. Put out two or three birds and limit the contact to once per bird. You can very slightly dizzy (not sleep) the birds before you put them out so they don't fly before the dog bumps them.

Do some research on carded pigeons. This might work for you.

Rick

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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by Moulders Farm » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:12 pm

There was a lot of things used before Lanchers .Carding is one good way plus you can usally catch your bird & reuse it Lions country supply all so has a kick cage pretty cheap or make your own smal cage out of a cheap basket bought at a dallar tree store or dallar store put some thing to weight it down then put a pull string on it . with puppy on check cord you can do a lot of training . The cage should keep the puppy from catching the bird . then you need a supply of pigions wild or homers . I have trained several dogs with out a lancher I do own two from linos country one manual one elect but use the beaket more than the luncher . plus under a milk cage I some time put multi. birds to make a covey launcher . As a youngster without any money we used a dip net to catch wild pigions a night then made a different cheap ways to realice them .The big thing is enjoy your puppy & both of you learn to hunt to gether .

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robert_lh
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by robert_lh » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:54 pm

I find this information to be very helpful to me as well. I am just having trouble finding birds in my area. I am thinking about heading to Seattle's Chinatown back ally with my salmon net to do some "research" :mrgreen: lol.

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bonasa
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by bonasa » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:21 am

I am not sure what wild birds you have in VA. Quail, grouse, woodcock? Anyway if you can guarantee your dog gets into 3-5 birds in about an hour you should be doing well a couple times a week. Then the leash goes in and get out of there. Check your laws for wild bird training, we have to be out of the woods April 30. The birds teach the dog to stand staunch, you teach the dog to stand steady, to wing, shot, and fall.

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Carolina Gundogs
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:12 am

I do believe pigeons and launchers can make the job much easier. I believe the Lion Country launchers are the best deal going.

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DonF
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by DonF » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:01 am

Carolina Gundogs wrote:I do believe pigeons and launchers can make the job much easier. I believe the Lion Country launchers are the best deal going.
Couldn't agree more. About wild birds, they can teach a dog but they won't train a dog. It is my opinion that for training, wild birds are over rated! They don't co-operate with you, they don't often show up where you need them, they only allow one flight and that's that, you could go several days training without any bird work. Train the dog on pigeon's, turn it over to pen raised game birds and finish it on wild birds!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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whatsnext
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by whatsnext » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:48 am

DonF wrote:
Carolina Gundogs wrote:I do believe pigeons and launchers can make the job much easier. I believe the Lion Country launchers are the best deal going.
Couldn't agree more. About wild birds, they can teach a dog but they won't train a dog. It is my opinion that for training, wild birds are over rated! They don't co-operate with you, they don't often show up where you need them, they only allow one flight and that's that, you could go several days training without any bird work. Train the dog on pigeon's, turn it over to pen raised game birds and finish it on wild birds!
I couldn't agree more good post.

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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:14 am

I have to say that pigeons are a good way to go.

The best thing about feral pigeons is that they will not land back on the ground, so the chance of a dog catching one is much, much less than with any other bird.

Paul Long described a "field cage" tht he used. It was basically a piece of thin plywood with a hole cut in it. The hole was covered with a raised dome of hardware cloth and the bottom of the plywood had wooden runners tacked on the underside. A long string was attached to the rig. Basically you put a bird on the gorund, put the rig over top of the bird so it was inside the wire dome. When the dog establishes point you tied the checkcord to a covenient tree or fencepost, got the end of the string and pulled the sled over top of the bird. If you have an assistant, you can have them either pull the sled or hold the dog.

The tree or fencepost is always there and always convenient because you are the one who picks the spot to plant the bird. I like that part...a lot.

i do not know what program you are following, but there is something else you can do very well with pigeons. That would be stop to flush training. The pup cannot catch the birds and sooner rather than later it will figure out that chasing the birds is a waste of time and energy.

RayG

Mike E
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by Mike E » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:25 pm

Ray,
I helped Paul Long make those as well as the cutting out of many bird dogs with a cage in the middle to help train a dog to back. We would have a string attached to the door so you could pull it open and let the bird out once a back was established.

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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by Sharon » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:42 pm

Never used a launcher and had no problems. Dizzied birds worked fine. Only key was to MAKE SURE they were hard flying pigeons . I never bought them and kept them crated for more than 2 days before using them. Takes a little experience to know how hard to dizzy them.
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fishvik
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by fishvik » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:31 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Paul Long described a "field cage" tht he used.
I've used a similar technique but I just bought a small "catch all" type plastic basket and painted it with dull, camo paint instead of building the cage. The open slats allow the bird scent to get out but it does a good job of hiding the pigeon. The pigeon is tethered to a piece of garden hose that allows the bird to fly about 100 yds before it tires. I walk the dog in with a cc and it is a lot easier if you have a assistant to kick the basket.

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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by Bedight » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 pm

I have always used kick cages, check cords and a helper, with feral pigeons. The kick cages are about $25 - $35 at Lion Country. They also have a manual launcher that, with a long enough trip line, can be used without a helper, about $85.

I get my Rock Doves (Pigeons) from a pest control company for $1 a bird.

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DonF
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Re: Training without a bird launcher

Post by DonF » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:36 pm

Boy this is old. The cage Ray talked about, I make these days to test the dog with a bird on the ground I can't just dump whenever I want. Another good thing about the cages is that the dog bust's the bird and nrmally the cage allow's the bird to get away.

I use a 1x8 board on either end. One end of the board is rounded, I trace a paint can and cut it. Then 1/2" hardware cloth over the to and stapled to the 1x8's. One last thing that's pretty important, I cover the top of the box with black Gorilla tape. Don't do that and you need to put a bunch of cover on the box or the birds can somehow get out. Look's like they try to go up and after a few tries, move the trap off them.

Couple problem's with cards. Might as well dizzy the birds. If the dog is running loose, it can scoop those birds in a heartbeat. Another problem come's in when the bird get's the cord on it's leg tangled around a power line or in a tree! Better to use more bird's, get one flight out of them and let them go home. Use them again tomorrow!

Those foot traps like Ray mentioned work great. I put my foot on top one edge and just flip them off the bird.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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