Reading a DOG

[S&J gsp]

This is a little more involved than most of us want to admit. You may be able to read one dog fairly well in 6 to 8 weeks.But to read any dog with accurately you will need to see several dogs a year, and if you really want to read a dog do some decoy work for a schutzhund club and see how well you can read a dog. Reading the back end is fairly simple but reading the business end gets real complicated. My suggestion to any one wanting to train is go see if you can help a Pro by planting birds you will see many dogs work and ask a lot of questions not during a session but when you switch to another dog. Most likely it would benefit you the trainer and your dog. Not saying go for a day and be done several times in a month or more

[big swill]

I've said for years you can't read dogs by standing behind them. Reading a dog is not the simplest thing in the world but it's not rocket science either. When I first started learning to train K9's it didn't take me long to figure out things like a hackled dog is a scared dog, but learning the difference between a fear biter and true aggression took a little longer. Decoying taught me more about how dogs tick in general than anything I've heard or read. Now, I'm not suggesting people go decoy, but I think you hit on a good point. The more dogs you're exposed to, good and bad, the more you learn about how to read them.

[Trekmoor]

I agree that you need to look at and assess a lot of dogs to gain experience in "reading" them. I got some of that experience as a guide dog trainer, some as a trainer of competition obedience work and a lot more as a trainer for two separate gundog clubs one of which concentrated on retrievers and spaniels and the other on the "versatiles." Sometimes I forget what I was like when I started out 40-50 years ago and when people ask how I knew a dog was about to do , or not do something, I have replied , "I think I know instinctively." That is not true, it is experience combined maybe with a bit of instinctive understanding.

A dogs posture can tell a story and so can the set of it's ears or the wrinkling of it's forehead etc. I have a brittany with only a stump for a tail and I miss the signals that a longer tail can more clearly give especially at distance. I like tails on dogs !

Bill T.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

If there's one quality a dog trainer needs above all others, what do you think it is?

"It's the ability to train on the dog's level. That dog wasn't born knowing the English language, but he'll talk to you if you just try to listen to what he's saying on his own level. A dog 'aint ever goin' to lie to you, but you got to be able to know what it is he's tellin' you." Delmar Smith

That about says it all.

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

Reading animals seems to be a combination of a lot of experience of seeing a them in many situations and some educated guess work. I was getting the hang of reading horses pretty well until I bought this one red roan(iecowpony) that would break in half seemingly without warning. I learned it would give some signs but it was very subtle compared to the average horse. Almost no ear signs and mostly in the eyes plus it could be quick. Well since you can't see the eyes well sitting on a horses back, that horse was gifted to a race horse trainer i knew at Los Alomitos to use a pony horse. They ended up drugging that one.

I remember Hickox talking about pitbulls often not giving outward signs of agression before an attack. I think we're fortunate most of the sporting breeds show themselves as well as they do.

[S&J gsp]

[quote="roaniecowpony"

I remember Hickox talking about pitbulls often not giving outward signs of agression before an attack. I think we're fortunate most of the sporting breeds show themselves as well as they do.[/quote]

That is not true they always give a warning as do all dogs I've see hundreds of pit bulls and bulldogs over the years and all gave notice that something was going to happen. He may not know what to look for but they all give signs before.

Let's not throw any breeds out with out any proof to back up our statements. Because a true to type pit bull is not suppose to show any people aggression.

[rinker]

My suggestion to any one wanting to train is go see if you can help a Pro by planting birds you will see many dogs work and ask a lot of questions not during a session but when you switch to another dog. Most likely it would benefit you the trainer and your dog. Not saying go for a day and be done several times in a month or more

Helping a pro, or serious amateur that has several dogs will teach you more than a rack full of books and videos.

[tailcrackin]

You always have to adjust yourself, to each dog. You never get the "whole story"...........everything with a dog, happens for a reason. You need to try and have an open mind, look outside the box, at times....and try an figure things out. A lot, have a tendancy, to over look things, the dog is saying....because its now on point....and that's the rush for us all. IMO, you put a dog in a learning position....it will learn. If you will put the dog in a fair working position, it will work, or do its best to, work fairly....with you. This will be a good topic......hopefully get more posts. Thanks S&J for getting it started......topics like this, can have a lot to learn from, imo....Thanks Jonesy

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Great topic. I look forward to the responses.

[Chukar12]

That is not true they always give a warning as do all dogs I've see hundreds of pit bulls and bulldogs over the years and all gave notice that something was going to happen. He may not know what to look for but they all give signs before

They all MAY give signals but some are invisible to 99.9999% of the population including most if not everyone of us. Furthermore, the onset of the attack can come from triggers that appear completely benign to any reasonable unsuspecting person and they happen in fractions of a second. So yes, if you put an aggressive dog behaviorist in a screening room with a dog on camera prior to a bite he/she will show you in slow motion the warning signal nearly every time, unfortunately the script is usually not written that way. Hence, the understandable caution surrounding protective, fighting breeds. Dachshunds show far more human aggression than Pits, Rotts, et al, however, they are rather incapable of ripping the throat out of a child.

It is this reason that the two responsible professional dog trainers I know that have had and or do have in the case of Hickox; contracts for training different types of dogs for the military and their numerous purposes urge caution and will often describe some dogs as unpredictable, because to many they are. I am not an advocate of more laws for dogs for the same logic I put behind gun control; criminals and idiots do not obey laws. My internal struggle is that one is an inanimate object that requires human activation, the other is not and does not. This is a problem for us as dog owners because unless the issue gets controlled from within laws will get passed that sweep all breeds and owners into choking expensive solutions.

I do not compare my ability to read dogs to those I currently study due to experience and commitment. Some folks dedicate their life to dogs, its their family business while others are out schlepping building materials. I think one advantage professionals have is that not only do they read the dog, they are prepared to react in a timely manner, again education and experience, but maybe more importantly is that they did not create the environment that caused a difficult behavior to begin with.

[S&J gsp]

I am not saying they are not small signals but they give a signal. I'm not saying he can't train a dog just most people throw examples out and it is fact. When the hardest dog to read is a Presa Canrio I've owned several breeds that have a bad reputation for no reason at all besides they are powerful. My last American Bulldog was 5 when my daughter was born and I would trust him with my life and the life of my family. Now I'm not bashing anybody please keep in mind I just stated my opinion based upon owning the breed and several others just like it. And please let's not put Mr Hickox in a protection dog catagory. Because Tom Rose is one of the best in this country

[Chukar12]

what does one have to do with the other ?

[S&J gsp]

this post was about reading a dog please lets keep it to that not what you heard at a seminar or what someone else said

[Chukar12]

this post was about reading a dog please lets keep it to that not what you heard at a seminar or what someone else said

Find someone else to moderate. Every word of what i have written has to do with reading a dog, and if I am quoting someone else; those with reasonable intellect and reading comprehension will know it, as i will credit the source. Those that lack that are not my responsibility. Your contributions that are often stated rather emphatically for a weak resume will illicit discussion and and disagreement with your analysis. At which point you appear to respond to those that disagree with you emotionally, for instance not long ago you said you were done posting?

It is not as difficult to read people as it is dogs. Especially if they leave a trail of posts that documents their experience or lack of in their own words. If you want to avoid being asked to quantify your thoughts, I would stick to addressing issues that you are learned about, when i speak with conjecture I am open to question as are you...at least I acknowledge that I am inviting it. You would have an argument if I chose say a Tom Rose, of whom my exposure and knowledge of is thin and condemned directly his thoughts and teachings, but I won't do that...instead I will probably read and see what I can learn.

[roaniecowpony]

Sorry guys. My intent in posting that comment about what I vaguely recall Hickox saying, was not to incite a debate about pitbulls or Hickox, but rather to point out that some individual dogs or breeds have more or less outward signals.

Certainly, the recent posting of the guy that had a dog that just sat there and quivered from overstimulation vs maybe another dog that might have vocalized and ran for the hills would be an example of different outward signals. That's all I was trying to point out. Sorry to have contributed to derailing this thread.

[ACooper]

most people throw examples out and it is fact.

Like this?

When the hardest dog to read is a Presa Canrio

[S&J gsp]

You are 100% right but that was the hardest dog I've ever read and she live at my house till she passed of old age

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

this post was about reading a dog please lets keep it to that not what you heard at a seminar or what someone else said

I'm not sure I can separate the two. George Hickox and Rick Smith can read dogs better and in a shorter amount of time than anyone I've personally ever worked with. I restarted this post with a quote by Delmar Smith, because he's arguably better at reading dogs than anyone. I for one believe that a lot can be learned from people with experience much greater than my own.

Nate

[S&J gsp]

My original intent in this post still holds true if you want to read a dog well go see a good trainer Pro or Semi-Pro and see if you can help I bet he won't turn you away.

[Maurice]

Good topic until it turned into a contest to see who could pee the highest on the tree

Mo

[S&J gsp]

Mo I didn't want it to turn that way and I'm sorry it did. But my point was all dogs are readable some not as easy but are still readable

[Chukar12]

My original intent in this post still holds true if you want to read a dog well go see a good trainer Pro or Semi-Pro and see if you can help I bet he won't turn you away.

Mo I didn't want it to turn that way and I'm sorry it did. But my point was all dogs are readable some not as easy but are still readable

With my hackles and leg down, I agree with all of this.
In my less mature and inexperienced days, give or take last September. I was inclined to look at training and most other things in life with reference to a timeline. In many disciplines, especially business, in which I am involved I still believe it has its place...but in dog training, especially early on, learning when the dog is ready to advance by watching the dog is an art that I believe can never be perfected.

I think in the past and probably still do, miss things or push them due to my ego. Whether in formal competition or hoping to impress hunting partners, I always want my dogs to showcase our work and to do so with machine like efficiency, alas and Thank God, they are dogs not machines. Judging other folks dogs in trials may be the single most educational thing for me in learning to read a dog and recognize where trainers/handlers including myself fall short.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Judging other folks dogs in trials may be the single most educational thing for me in learning to read a dog and recognize where trainers/handlers including myself fall short.

Probably the most important step in reading dogs.

If your own dog is the only one you evaluate, your missing out on the big picture. Can't see the forest for the trees sort of analogy. I tell people all the time who train with me to watch the other dogs, and participate in training other people's dogs as well. You learn far more by not comparing other dogs to your own, and viewing them as the very different individuals that they are.

Nate

[S&J gsp]

I would like to apologise to all that posted on this thread it was meant to help new trainer's not turn into a pissing contest and I helped it along and should not have. I'm sure the three trainers that posted on here would not turn you away if you wanted to watch them work dogs

[Kmack]

I don't profess to having the ability to read dogs very well but from what I know, the ability to read a dog comes from understanding what they are prone to do in a given situation if left to choose for themselves. Those who possess this ability got there by being observant of dogs when left alone, not from what they do under the control of a trainer/handler. This is not to say that part of reading a dog doesn't involve how they are likely to respond to training input but rather to say that knowing the multiple likely responses is what gives certain people the ability to "read" a dog and use that skill to get the dog where they want it.

Most people I have seen training dogs try to continuously force a dog to do what they want while those who I consider skilled at reading a dog "set-up" a situation to encourage the dogs desired natural response as the goal. They use this understanding to lead a dog to train itself rather than to force it to do what they want.

The greatest thrills involved in having dogs for me come from seeing dogs making decisions on their own which show that they will develop certain abilities and tendencies which I hope to see. This is why my dogs don't get as well trained as most because I want my involvement to be one of mostly watching the dog enjoying to the hilt what it does while still generally doing what I want it to do. I want to limit my interruptions to minimal guidance in the field or in the house. The better I become at being able to "read" a dog, the better I will be at getting my dog to do what I want without extreme use of harsh tactics.

That is my goal in all of this.