Mapping a comprehensive training program?

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roaniecowpony
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Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:39 am

Being on the learning end of dog training myself, and being an engineer, it seems like all the training books and the seminar stuff I've seen lacked a "collector map" or flow chart that graphically shows the program at a high level.

The problem for me with all these books and seminars have you going back and forth to the text as you try to move forward in training. A chart is a reminder of the text you read and prompts you to see the logic of the process. It can be a great teaching tool if use correctly.

When we have a complex process to explain in the aerospace biz, we put together a flow chart that shows the key activities and succeeding steps, along with decision gates to direct next steps or redirect a step. Along with a flow chart is a detailed text explanation of the activities/decisions in that box. I've only taken seminars (3 over the years) from one trainer, Hickox. But I see a great tool for teaching missing from his class and all the books I have.

I understand that a training program progresses at the rate of the dog's learning, but successful trainers have a planned program, as exemplified in all the books out there. A flow chart is a very flexible map of a process that can accomodate decisions to address things I've read about in the various trainer's books.

After the last class I took with Hickox last summer, it struck me that if I had a flow chart of his program, I'd get a much better understanding of why things are taught at certain stages and the "how" would be much easier as well. With a flow chart pinned to the wall, I could see instantly where my dog (or each dog of many that a trainer may have) was in the process. It'd even be a great tool for pros to show their clients where their dog was in a program.

I'd appreciate comments from advanced trainers and novices and beginners as well.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Johng918 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:58 am

Sounds like lean thinking is meeting the bird dog world.I guess you could have a process map and play books for each training step.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:01 am

Ive never seen training a bird dog as a complex process, its really pretty simple. The way I do it is, whoa first year, go hunting for the season, FF second year go hunting another season, finish steady to wing shot and fall (if desired) then go hunting for life.....pretty simple it seems to me. Don't really see how a flow chart would help me.

Now retriever training start to finish to a high level I could see the benefit of a chart.......


Just my 2 cents , maybe I am missing something......
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Higgins » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:03 am

Hello roaniecowpony,

I agree. Here is the flowchart of my training method. It has been very helpful to clients.

http://higginsgundogs.com/about-us/our- ... flowchart/

I also have videos of young dogs in training that help to visually show how the training progresses.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by topher40 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:17 am

You remind me of a friend of mine that works in Aerospace on the left coast. He asked for me to make up the same thing for his Golden. I will tell you the same thing that I told him, dont overthink it and keep it simple. His golden is a great dog and he has done a wonderful job by following this method (as best as an engineer can). :roll: :lol:
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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:41 am

OK, get all the engineer jokes out there on the table... ImageImage

But for a common dog training book to have 10-15 chapters and Hickox's class to go for 4 full days, there is a lot to a formal program. The point of a flow chart IS keeping it simple. All these authors of books and classes delve into the details repetitiously to the point of confusing the progression of the training. Flow charts just keep it simple.
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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by hustonmc » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:44 am

We had a saying in the Navy, "don't Nuke it"

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:59 am

To a marketer of a program , it can't be simple or they'd have nothing to sell....... :D
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by LabGuy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:08 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:OK, get all the engineer jokes out there on the table... ImageImage

But for a common dog training book to have 10-15 chapters and Hickox's class to go for 4 full days, there is a lot to a formal program. The point of a flow chart IS keeping it simple. All these authors of books and classes delve into the details repetitiously to the point of confusing the progression of the training. Flow charts just keep it simple.
I agree. I have a 9 week old pup and am going to start with a listing of desired traits that I want in a finished gun dog (responds regardless of distractions, steady to wing/shot, etc.) and then doing a top down flow chart of the trainnig that will be required to get to that goal. Obviously certain traits will require the same base training, but this allows you to track your dogs progress and make sure all the bases are hit before moving to the next step. All dogs and trainers are different so no one individuals flow chart will be the same. I just like the idea of this layout as it still allows for flexibility in your training and still ignores the typical timeline that everyone looks for.

If you ever get something made up, let me know as I would be interested in seeing it.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:09 pm

Johng918 wrote:Sounds like lean thinking is meeting the bird dog world.I guess you could have a process map and play books for each training step.
That'd make it easy to stay on the program for sure.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:14 pm

I know exactly where you are coming from as I was right in that spot at one time. "Give me the plan and let's get at it, " kind of person. I made up my own flow chart for pointing breeds garnered from what I had read etc. It did simplify things for me and showed me where we were heading. Only problem was that I had myself winning at Ames in 2 years. :) Don'r rush the process, I learned.

That Higgins' link is very informative.
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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:48 pm

Sharon,
I said flow chart, not schedule. LOL. I don't see a CH in my future other than my initials for my birth name.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Kmack » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:15 pm

I've worked aerospace for more than 35 years and I can tell you for certain that we could accomplish more, with higher quality, in a shorter amount of time before the advent of the flow chart. A flow chart is a crutch for someone who doesn't grasp the whole process to be able to get a general idea of how things get done. They are intended for the unknowing bystanders to be able to evaluate progress when they are unable to "see" what's happening in front of them.

The problems with flow charts for dog training are the same as they are for aerospace work. Each decision box contains too many potential results and you end up with a spaghetti chart when you are done. Very few know (understand) how to even do their own job yet they think they are qualified to critique the work of others because the flow chart says so.

Every dog is different. The results people are looking for are different. Trainers are different and inconsistent (even the best to some extent). All of these reasons dictate a flexible process through which you can adapt to the task at hand.

One could create a flow chart of how things would go if everything happened perfectly as expected but that's not reality in dog training or aerospace.

This is not a shot at engineers because I are one, but if you think that dog training can be broken down into a finite set of steps which you perform per a written P&P, you are in for a rude awakening.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:47 pm

Kmack,
Sounds like you had some bad experiences and associated them to flow charts.

The main reason for my wanting such a tool was to organize and be sure things weren't forgotten when they should be worked concurrently with other thing and sequencially. Just a simple prompter really. Something a seasoned trainer commits to memory. Not sure how that could possibly be interpretted as a negative thing to write it down.

BTW, flow charts go back to the '20s in mfg processes.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Kmack » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:21 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Kmack,
Sounds like you had some bad experiences and associated them to flow charts.

The main reason for my wanting such a tool was to organize and be sure things weren't forgotten when they should be worked concurrently with other thing and sequencially. Just a simple prompter really. Something a seasoned trainer commits to memory. Not sure how that could possibly be interpretted as a negative thing to write it down.

BTW, flow charts go back to the '20s in mfg processes.
All you need is a list.

Flow charts are great as a tool to show a generic and simplified illustration of a process which can be easily understood by those lacking a working knowledge of the actual process. Because of their limited scope and generic nature they are a poor tool to use to map you actual efforts. They cannot address the multitude of deviations which may occur at each decision box so the only thing you end up with is a bunch of milestones (dates) which are either met or not. The emphasis becomes a date on a calendar rather than the proper completion of the task itself. Your end product is filled with holes where quality escapes because proper execution and quality are given a back seat to days, dates, and time.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:07 pm

Kmack
I think your first sentence hit the nail on the head. The person not knowledgeable can benefit from them. I wouldnt expect Rick Smith or Hickox would need a flow chart. But I might.

I just noted that as a student trying to learn, the presentation of the material could be enhanced and reinforced with an additional tool. Isn't that what a trainer does with a dog...use tools that help train?

Books are good for providing details, but often lack the ability to provide perspective of the entire process and inter relationships. The details need to be in reference material like your crib notes, a journal, a book by a noted trainer, or play book as noted, etc. and can be pointed to for quick access.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:26 pm

I think a sequence/flo-chart makes sense but don't set a timeline. Like the "Smiths" say. "it takes as long as it takes".

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by crackerd » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:25 am

Yes, makes a lot of sense if you aim to train up any gundog, particularly a retrieving gundog. Lots of hilarity in the comments gainsaying a flow chart as unnecessary or a "crutch." But should the lame attempts at humor :wink: give way to any inclination for training instead of posting: http://www.totalretriever.com/index.php ... Itemid=102

MG

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by KCBrittfan » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:43 am

Kmack wrote:I've worked aerospace for more than 35 years and I can tell you for certain that we could accomplish more, with higher quality, in a shorter amount of time before the advent of the flow chart. A flow chart is a crutch for someone who doesn't grasp the whole process to be able to get a general idea of how things get done. They are intended for the unknowing bystanders to be able to evaluate progress when they are unable to "see" what's happening in front of them.

The problems with flow charts for dog training are the same as they are for aerospace work. Each decision box contains too many potential results and you end up with a spaghetti chart when you are done. Very few know (understand) how to even do their own job yet they think they are qualified to critique the work of others because the flow chart says so.

Every dog is different. The results people are looking for are different. Trainers are different and inconsistent (even the best to some extent). All of these reasons dictate a flexible process through which you can adapt to the task at hand.

One could create a flow chart of how things would go if everything happened perfectly as expected but that's not reality in dog training or aerospace.

This is not a shot at engineers because I are one, but if you think that dog training can be broken down into a finite set of steps which you perform per a written P&P, you are in for a rude awakening.
I'm not an engineer (however, you can't throw a marshmellow at a family party without hitting one), but I'm with Kmack on this.

There is just too much variety in what people want the finished product to be like. Take completing the retrieve for example. I've seen guys who were happy with the dog just marking or hunting dead and then standing over the bird once it was found. Others will expect the dog to make a half circle behind them, line up for the potential next retrieve, sit, wait, and then finally release the bird to hand when commanded. I've seen a large variety across this spectrum. Heck, one guy who used to run NSTRA wanted his dogs to deliver the bird without even slowing down. His dogs literally tossed the bird to him as they ran passed and took off to find the next bird. (I always wondered if that guy trained his dogs to give a little crunch to make sure the bird was dead. Imagine being an unsuspecting hunting partner of this guy and getting hit in the face by the thrown bird.)

Kmack, I love that term "spaghetti chart." Very funny :D and very appropiate when so many variables are involved.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:28 am

I once felt very strongly, and still do in some ways that better written information be it a flow chart, an outline or even a book that was more explicable in terms of metrics. I even have a draft that I was working on. However, I don't believe that training is similar enough to a mapped engineering or business process for the finished product to be effective; especially in a dog trainer's eyes. Many of us find comfort in absolutes and in spite of the warnings received by the experienced and the pledges by those being educated that they understand; they still gravitate checking the box and moving on. It is my experience that dogs do not work like that.

There are but a limited number of behaviors its true that need correction or enhancement in a bird dog, but the way the manifest themselves due to the infinite variety of environmental influence makes it nearly impossible to document trainer reactions. the pro-active parts of training are simple and easy to explain and they work given a clean slate and a sterile environment with a model subject, the problem is that as described; there is no such thing. Dog training is art that lacks the financial potential of psychiatry or religion so mainstreaming finite training will be forever grass roots and hands on....thank the aforementioned God.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by KCBrittfan » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:47 am

Chukar, you have an interesting way of putting things. I couldn't agree more with your last post.

Don't tell any of my old college instructors that psychology is an art. Just ask them and they will tell you that psychology is as much hard core science as any of the engineering disciplines. :D (Sorry, I'm having lunch later today with one of my professors and I just couldn't resist the opportunity to take a poke at some of the "psycho-babble" college shoved down my throat.)
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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:59 am

well sometimes I start writing and get lost...I missed Kmack's post until after i had written mine. Otherwise, I could have saved us all some time with just one of those +1 deals....

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by aulrich » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:31 am

I had been lamenting this very issue, though I think a GNAT chart may be more applicable, especially since you can throw in important developmental milestones. The other complaint I have with the systems out there is you get step by step processes, and stress the importance of following the steps and reading your dog to gauge progression, But don’t give what the indicators are that your supposed to be reading your dog for to indicate proper progression. But then I saw the Hickox Pointing dogs, especially the e-collar/obedience section the milestones are pretty well defined, that was a breath of fresh air.

GNAT chart may not be the best either since time is part of them , but if you could ignore the time and just identified tasks, and what tasks are done in parallel, which are serial and what is the critical path if there is one, that said, process flow might be better.

But you would have to define what done looks like, ie Prize 1 NAVHDA UT and so on, but then again since this is for the benchmark orentated testing would pretty much be a given :) And if you actually want to test, you instantly have time frame. If I want to do UT this August I have to start working backwards to see what I need to be doing tonight to even have a chance at achieve ing that goal.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by cmc274 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:13 pm

aulrich wrote:I had been lamenting this very issue, though I think a GNAT chart may be more applicable, especially since you can throw in important developmental milestones. The other complaint I have with the systems out there is you get step by step processes, and stress the importance of following the steps and reading your dog to gauge progression, But don’t give what the indicators are that your supposed to be reading your dog for to indicate proper progression. But then I saw the Hickox Pointing dogs, especially the e-collar/obedience section the milestones are pretty well defined, that was a breath of fresh air.

GNAT chart may not be the best either since time is part of them , but if you could ignore the time and just identified tasks, and what tasks are done in parallel, which are serial and what is the critical path if there is one, that said, process flow might be better.

But you would have to define what done looks like, ie Prize 1 NAVHDA UT and so on, but then again since this is for the benchmark orentated testing would pretty much be a given :) And if you actually want to test, you instantly have time frame. If I want to do UT this August I have to start working backwards to see what I need to be doing tonight to even have a chance at achieve ing that goal.
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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by EvanG » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:34 pm

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Kmack » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:13 pm

Here's what mine would look like.

1.Teach pup to respond to queues on the neck.
1a Teach heel, here, and go to the front.
1b Let pup chase birds and become bird crazy.

When 1b is done add the following while continuing with the previous...

2.Teach dog to respond to queues on the flank by stopping and standing still until released.
2a. Teach Stop to flush
2b. Teach to honor
2c. Work on steady on point to desired level.

Lots of birds, gunfire and dead birds to retrieve throughout part 2.

Now mix 'em up, and work on whatever the dog has shown me it needs until done.

That about covers it.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:10 pm

Training dogs is a whole lot more like sales than manufacturing. You need to learn how to read your dog like a salesman reads people. None of the rest of that stuff matters. If you can't read your dog then all the charts and books in the world aren't going to help you.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by jeffkrop » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:43 pm

For me a map would be nice if I know when to start something new. I never know if my dog is to young to start things. I think this is the hardest part of training and with everyone saying different things it is crazy.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:54 pm

jeffkrop wrote:For me a map would be nice if I know when to start something new. I never know if my dog is to young to start things. I think this is the hardest part of training and with everyone saying different things it is crazy.

The dog is your map. You have to learn to read what he tells you. They tell you when they are ready to move to the next step. No book or map can help you. Find some other folks around you that have more experience. The more dogs you watch in training the more you will learn. We were all in your place at one point. Let someone help you along the way. Find a pro or a training group. Go watch test and trials. Even if you don't want to play you will learn a lot and meet the folks that can help you.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:40 pm

Kmack wrote:Here's what mine would look like.

1.Teach pup to respond to queues on the neck.
1a Teach heel, here, and go to the front.
1b Let pup chase birds and become bird crazy.

When 1b is done add the following while continuing with the previous...

2.Teach dog to respond to queues on the flank by stopping and standing still until released.
2a. Teach Stop to flush
2b. Teach to honor
2c. Work on steady on point to desired level.

Lots of birds, gunfire and dead birds to retrieve throughout part 2.

Now mix 'em up, and work on whatever the dog has shown me it needs until done.

That about covers it.
No offense but this looks like a training program where control takes presidence over prey drive. Its impossible to build style with pressure.

Nate

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:04 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Being on the learning end of dog training myself, and being an engineer, it seems like all the training books and the seminar stuff I've seen lacked a "collector map" or flow chart that graphically shows the program at a high level.

The problem for me with all these books and seminars have you going back and forth to the text as you try to move forward in training. A chart is a reminder of the text you read and prompts you to see the logic of the process. It can be a great teaching tool if use correctly.

When we have a complex process to explain in the aerospace biz, we put together a flow chart that shows the key activities and succeeding steps, along with decision gates to direct next steps or redirect a step. Along with a flow chart is a detailed text explanation of the activities/decisions in that box. I've only taken seminars (3 over the years) from one trainer, Hickox. But I see a great tool for teaching missing from his class and all the books I have.

I understand that a training program progresses at the rate of the dog's learning, but successful trainers have a planned program, as exemplified in all the books out there. A flow chart is a very flexible map of a process that can accomodate decisions to address things I've read about in the various trainer's books.

After the last class I took with Hickox last summer, it struck me that if I had a flow chart of his program, I'd get a much better understanding of why things are taught at certain stages and the "how" would be much easier as well. With a flow chart pinned to the wall, I could see instantly where my dog (or each dog of many that a trainer may have) was in the process. It'd even be a great tool for pros to show their clients where their dog was in a program.

I'd appreciate comments from advanced trainers and novices and beginners as well.
I can understand the usefulness in having a line to trace. But good dog training can't be accomplished in cookie cutter fashion.

The best advice I can give anyone who's attended a Hickox or Smith seminar (These are the only 2 I'd recommend)and bought in to the system is that you purchase the coresponding DVD. Watch and review it throughout your training steps. This will help you more than anything else. Most people who attend one of these seminars take a lot of notes. If your one of these people, review your notes as soon as you get home. Nearly everyone that I've ever met at one of George's seminars who is a novice trainer has the same reaction. The lights come on at day 3 of the seminar. Everyone of those same people will be overloaded with information by day 4, and need the DVD for review.

The next two cents I have to give is to take notes of your training. I don't know what I'd do if I did'nt have notes on each dog I did the force fetch on among other things like e-collar levels. Note review really helps to keep track of dogs and owners that I don't see very often. Good notes can help you to decide when to advance and when to revisit training. It helps you to establish benchmarks, and stay on the line you desire.

I hope this helps,

Nate

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by KCBrittfan » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:25 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Kmack wrote:Here's what mine would look like.

1.Teach pup to respond to queues on the neck.
1a Teach heel, here, and go to the front.
1b Let pup chase birds and become bird crazy.

When 1b is done add the following while continuing with the previous...

2.Teach dog to respond to queues on the flank by stopping and standing still until released.
2a. Teach Stop to flush
2b. Teach to honor
2c. Work on steady on point to desired level.

Lots of birds, gunfire and dead birds to retrieve throughout part 2.

Now mix 'em up, and work on whatever the dog has shown me it needs until done.

That about covers it.
No offense but this looks like a training program where control takes presidence over prey drive. Its impossible to build style with pressure.

Nate
I did not interpret Kmack's post this way at all.

Look at "1b." The fact he only briefly references this says nothing about how much time and effort he puts into letting his dogs become bird crazy. For all we know "1b" may take up 90% of his training program.

I agree with your comment about pressure.

I also like your post just after this one. I wish someone had given me that kind of good advice when I started training my first dog. I did eventually start taking notes (more of a hunting journal that included off season runs), but not nearly enough.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Kmack » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:47 am

My belief is that prey drive comes with the dog. I wouldn't bother training at all if a pup lacks sufficient prey drive. I don't train prey drive, I utilize it throughout training as the way to free te dogs' mind back up after putting pressure on the dog. I do everything I can to encourage a pup to display it's prey drive but if a pup doesn't have it, I'll look for another.

I'm not sure if I can express this understandably but having close access to an or several places where a pups prey drive can be aroused because you have ingrained on pups mind that there are birds to be found is absolutely essential for me. When the pressure of training starts affecting the dogs' psyche (something you have to read in your dog) I stop the pressure and go immediately to the bird field where it's all about letting the pups prey drive take over it's mind and erase the ill effects of training pressure. I consider this a crucial part of training. Plus, nothing thrills me more than watching a high drive dog put it on display.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:36 am

Thanks Nate,
I took George's classes in 08, 09, and last year. Probably have all the contemporary DVDs from him. I fully appreciate your point that a program can't be cookie cutter. If George emphasizes anything repeatedly, it's that moving forward in a program is based on what he terms "benchmarks"(milestones or goals). That should be easy enough to capture in a map/flow. The first reply to this thread, Johng918, seems to be very familiar with contemporary process charting when he referred to "playbooks". That's just the details of an activity shown in the map/chart, broken out on their own.

But I don't train dogs everyday from the ground up like some of you fulltime trainers. Organizing a full training program in my head like many longtime trainers have committed to memory thru the repetition a guy like me doesn't have the exposure to, is less likely. I'm a lot on the A.D.D. side anyway. So a form of a map or guide is useful to me. There are many things that need to happen in George's program most of which have to happen sequencially, of course with benchmarks as predecessors. So mapping it all out, including the references to benchmark predecessors would keep me from forgetting a key step. For example, some things in his program have to happen in the imprinting stage to be most effective. If I forgot to get that done, I've taken away some probability of the dog's ability to reach its full potential. For highly experienced guys like Kmack, maybe a few lines of notes is all he needs to remind him of his particular program steps. Less experienced guys like me need more. And I agree with those that said working with experienced trainers would be beneficial.

Right now, I have no plans in the near future to train from the ground up. But in a not so many years, I plan to retire and move out of the city to where I can have training and hunting ground. Then I'd like to start some dogs and bring them thru a full program.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Johng918 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:35 am

I think you can absolutely do this at a high level if you think it will help you,every one keeps going back to reading the dog this is a visual which is a very big part of charts/maps. Myself I do this 60 hrs a week so I choose to shoot from the hip when working dogs.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Kmack » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:43 pm

All the words available in Webster's and I still have great difficulty expressing my thoughts. I am not trying to discourage anyone from breaking down the training process into a format that they can understand and follow. I am trying to express how difficult that would be for someone else to do for you. First, I honestly think you really need to learn very few things to be able to train a dog from a capability standpoint. For me, the two skills required are the ability to control a dogs in motion by using queues on the neck. The queues are exactly the same whether you use a check cord or an e-collar. I feel skill with both is essential. The other skill you need to learn is to be able to stop your dog and make it stand where and as you stop it until YOU release it. For me this is done by using the same two tools (check cord and e-collar) but on the flank rather than the neck. Once you understand and are capable of these to things, the rest of training is nothing more than determining which one you are trying to accomplish (whether you need to work on the dog in motion or stopped). I know this sounds like a horrible oversimplification but it truly is all you need to be able to do. Bird work is about either training the dog how you want it to hunt or what you want it to do when it finds a bird, sees another dog on point, or sees a bird in flight. All of these can be taught using one of the two techniques mentioned earlier. Really, the things that a dog learns from birds, in my opinion, are where to find them, how much pressure they can take before they fly off, etc. The rest of bird work is about what you want the dog to do when it's around birds. You have to use birds for this and the birds eventually replace the check cord and e-collar as the provider of queues for your dog.

I believe that folks will have much greater success learning to get the most out of their training sessions if they can get themselves to think of it as two or only a few simple skills used over and over for the various situations for which the dog needs to be taught. When I hear talk of a flow chart or a graph it makes it sound like it's so complicated and so involved that you need a notebook and a pocket computer to get through it.

Focus on mastering the check cord, the e-collar, or whatever tools you choose to utilize and understanding what your dog is doing and why, then you can use your own judgement as to how to use your skills to get the results you are looking for.

I have enjoyed this thread and I appreciate you posting it. I have only trained a couple of handfuls of dogs in my life but I have read, studied, followed, training techniques for over forty years. I never really thought myself capable of training a dog until it dawned on me that I was making it difficult by trying to see every little thing as a training event by itself when the truth is training is about doing the same things over and over until the dog understands what you want. The difference between training the dog to stop to flush, back another or stay steady on point is nothing more than the scenario you set up. The training will be done by showing your dog the situation and using the skill you have at stopping the dog to teach it how to react to that situation. Same simple idea applies to training heel, here, go to the front, turn, etc. One skill used in different situational set ups.

I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to slam anybody of pick on someones idea. All I am trying to do is offer my opinions hoping that someones light may come on from reading them.

Have a great day.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Maurice » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:03 pm

Kmack wrote:All the words available in Webster's and I still have great difficulty expressing my thoughts. I am not trying to discourage anyone from breaking down the training process into a format that they can understand and follow. I am trying to express how difficult that would be for someone else to do for you. First, I honestly think you really need to learn very few things to be able to train a dog from a capability standpoint. For me, the two skills required are the ability to control a dogs in motion by using queues on the neck. The queues are exactly the same whether you use a check cord or an e-collar. I feel skill with both is essential. The other skill you need to learn is to be able to stop your dog and make it stand where and as you stop it until YOU release it. For me this is done by using the same two tools (check cord and e-collar) but on the flank rather than the neck. Once you understand and are capable of these to things, the rest of training is nothing more than determining which one you are trying to accomplish (whether you need to work on the dog in motion or stopped). I know this sounds like a horrible oversimplification but it truly is all you need to be able to do. Bird work is about either training the dog how you want it to hunt or what you want it to do when it finds a bird, sees another dog on point, or sees a bird in flight. All of these can be taught using one of the two techniques mentioned earlier. Really, the things that a dog learns from birds, in my opinion, are where to find them, how much pressure they can take before they fly off, etc. The rest of bird work is about what you want the dog to do when it's around birds. You have to use birds for this and the birds eventually replace the check cord and e-collar as the provider of queues for your dog.

I believe that folks will have much greater success learning to get the most out of their training sessions if they can get themselves to think of it as two or only a few simple skills used over and over for the various situations for which the dog needs to be taught. When I hear talk of a flow chart or a graph it makes it sound like it's so complicated and so involved that you need a notebook and a pocket computer to get through it.

Focus on mastering the check cord, the e-collar, or whatever tools you choose to utilize and understanding what your dog is doing and why, then you can use your own judgement as to how to use your skills to get the results you are looking for.

I have enjoyed this thread and I appreciate you posting it. I have only trained a couple of handfuls of dogs in my life but I have read, studied, followed, training techniques for over forty years. I never really thought myself capable of training a dog until it dawned on me that I was making it difficult by trying to see every little thing as a training event by itself when the truth is training is about doing the same things over and over until the dog understands what you want. The difference between training the dog to stop to flush, back another or stay steady on point is nothing more than the scenario you set up. The training will be done by showing your dog the situation and using the skill you have at stopping the dog to teach it how to react to that situation. Same simple idea applies to training heel, here, go to the front, turn, etc. One skill used in different situational set ups.

I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to slam anybody of pick on someones idea. All I am trying to do is offer my opinions hoping that someones light may come on from reading them.

Have a great day.

Very good opinion kmack

Mo

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:26 pm

Kmack,
Don't sweat it. Appology not necessary.

This is more about how I think I could best learn and remember than how anyone else thinks they could best learn and remember. Besides, I spent the last year working on processes at work in our little work recession and got this process stuff on my brain.

I've got an idea on how I could build a high level map with hot links to detailed text and video clips. It'd take a lot of work, but it'd be a neat learning tool for a new guy.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:32 pm

Hard to make a comprehensive program when no two dogs, no two programs, no two trainers, and no two goals are the same. Plus doesn't comprehensive mean someone plus the dog has to comprehend and that has to happen after the fact and not when it is being developed.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:30 am

Kmack wrote:My belief is that prey drive comes with the dog. I wouldn't bother training at all if a pup lacks sufficient prey drive. I don't train prey drive, I utilize it throughout training as the way to free te dogs' mind back up after putting pressure on the dog. I do everything I can to encourage a pup to display it's prey drive but if a pup doesn't have it, I'll look for another.

I'm not sure if I can express this understandably but having close access to an or several places where a pups prey drive can be aroused because you have ingrained on pups mind that there are birds to be found is absolutely essential for me. When the pressure of training starts affecting the dogs' psyche (something you have to read in your dog) I stop the pressure and go immediately to the bird field where it's all about letting the pups prey drive take over it's mind and erase the ill effects of training pressure. I consider this a crucial part of training. Plus, nothing thrills me more than watching a high drive dog put it on display.
This is a great post Kmack. Nate and I were discussing prey drive on another thread. I agree with you, I think prey drive is something inherent of the dog, not something you train. If prey drive was made from training, it really wouldn't matter the breeding of one's dog. As long as you're a good trainer you could get by. We all know this isn't the case.
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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:42 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
Kmack wrote:My belief is that prey drive comes with the dog. I wouldn't bother training at all if a pup lacks sufficient prey drive. I don't train prey drive, I utilize it throughout training as the way to free te dogs' mind back up after putting pressure on the dog. I do everything I can to encourage a pup to display it's prey drive but if a pup doesn't have it, I'll look for another.

I'm not sure if I can express this understandably but having close access to an or several places where a pups prey drive can be aroused because you have ingrained on pups mind that there are birds to be found is absolutely essential for me. When the pressure of training starts affecting the dogs' psyche (something you have to read in your dog) I stop the pressure and go immediately to the bird field where it's all about letting the pups prey drive take over it's mind and erase the ill effects of training pressure. I consider this a crucial part of training. Plus, nothing thrills me more than watching a high drive dog put it on display.
This is a great post Kmack. Nate and I were discussing prey drive on another thread. I agree with you, I think prey drive is something inherent of the dog, not something you train. If prey drive was made from training, it really wouldn't matter the breeding of one's dog. As long as you're a good trainer you could get by. We all know this isn't the case.
CDN,

I finally think I'm beginning understand where you are coming from. You can't make all dogs bird dogs simply by giving them birds, but you must have multiple bird contacts to unlock full potential. This is true regardless of pedigree. Whether the birds are pigeons, pen raised quail or wild birds it matters not. Exposure to birds is essential to a young gundog's development.

This is what a wise old dog trainer once told me: "If a dog is not exposed to birds within the first 20 weeks (the imprinting stage of development) it will never reach its full potential."

Nate

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by roaniecowpony » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:08 am

Each of the three times I've attended a Hickox class, at least one person or more has brought an adult dog that had never hunted, was a hunting breed but may not have been of a line of hunters, and the owners wanted to train to hunt. In all cases it was a live example of why a prospective buyer of a puppy intent on making into a bird dog should research the ancestory. These dogs did not have interest in birds, let alone hunting drive. These people had spent their travel time and expense plus the cost of the class to find out what they could have read in a $20 hunting dog book. All that money could have been used toward a pretty good trained adult dog. Expensive lessons.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by Tejas » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:06 pm

There was a trainer that used to write a lot for Gun Dog Magazine who was on the staff of TriTronics. He resided north of Sacramento, Ca...last name was Dobbs or Dabbs. He did a running series of training lessons in each edition and after several years actually put together a sequence for training. I think I have a link for his "program", but it is too late tonight. I will look for it tomorrow and think that worst case I've probably got a hard copy of it somewhere.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by aulrich » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:43 am

I was just leafing through the DD puppy manual, there is a bit of one there. it starts talking about timing in relation to testing.

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Re: Mapping a comprehensive training program?

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:29 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Each of the three times I've attended a Hickox class, at least one person or more has brought an adult dog that had never hunted, was a hunting breed but may not have been of a line of hunters, and the owners wanted to train to hunt. In all cases it was a live example of why a prospective buyer of a puppy intent on making into a bird dog should research the ancestory. These dogs did not have interest in birds, let alone hunting drive. These people had spent their travel time and expense plus the cost of the class to find out what they could have read in a $20 hunting dog book. All that money could have been used toward a pretty good trained adult dog. Expensive lessons.
There is one or two in every class. There is also one or more in every class that bucks the system, and wastes his time and money. The difference between these two types is that the guy with the two year old dog (Sometimes a dog with a "great pedigree") that has had no previous positive bird exposure, actually learns something. This is one thing that's common to George Hickox and Rick Smith seminars, and likely everyone elses as well. I always have a few new people that come to train with me each year, who fit one of these discriptions. Most people would be best served buying a started - finished dog.

Nate

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