New Puppy Advice

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Lee_55
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New Puppy Advice

Post by Lee_55 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:02 pm

Hi All,
I will be bringing home a new Labrador puppy at the 7 week mark this May. My problem is that I am going to be away for work just 2 weeks into her stay with my wife and I. For the first two-weeks, I will be off work, and should get a lot of time with her, but after that, it will be Weekends, and hopefully every Wednesday. This will be my first dog from scratch, and though I plan on sending her to school when the time comes, but I am wondering if anyone sees my situation as a big problem. Are there things the wife can do during the days I am not around? Am I making a mountain out of a mole-hill?
Thanks in advance!
Lee

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:33 am

Be sure to purchase a crate for transport and house breaking. Also get some of the puppy food from your breeder. If you decide to change foods, mix the new food in gradually. Be sure to get shot records and schedule an appointment with your vet. There's probably a bunch of other stuff you can do, but It's late and I'm going to skip ahead. :wink:

Take the pup several places for socialization with people. Get him around a variety of folks, big and small, young and old. Be careful around other dogs, They may be aggressive without notice or could give him disease. He should already know he's a dog without all the extra dog contacts. He doesn't need more of that right now.

Begin clicker training your pup, and be sure your wife is involved in the training. You can get a clicker from most pet stores. Base load the pup with the clicker by using small treats (tiny pieces of hot dog or puppy food will be fine). I like to use a product called lickety stick. Click the clicker one time and give one treat. 10 - 15 reps. After a few of these sessions he will anticipate that the treat will follow the click, and he will give you his full attention. This attentive behavior lets you know he is now base loaded.

Let me know how this goes, and if you'ld like, I'd be glad to give you some clicker training steps.

George Hickox's DVD - Great Beginnings for Retrievers, would be a great purchase before you get your new pup.

Nate

Lee_55
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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by Lee_55 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:15 am

Thanks Nate!
I will have to look into clicker training, have to admit, I've never done it before.
Thanks for all the good advice here, much appreciated.
Lee

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:51 am

Lee_55 wrote:Thanks Nate!
I will have to look into clicker training, have to admit, I've never done it before.
Thanks for all the good advice here, much appreciated.
Lee
Clicker training works well but have never found a need or a way to use it that adds much to training a sporting dog. Seems like just an extra step that has little benefit for future training.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by Doc E » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:52 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Clicker training works well but have never found a need or a way to use it that adds much to training a sporting dog. Seems like just an extra step that has little benefit for future training.

Ezzy

I commonly agree with Nate on many subjects, but this is one where i have to agree with Ezzy instead.



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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:54 pm

To really have a good understanding or opinion of clicker training and how it relates to field training ,it would be best to experience it in action. Clicker training goes far beyond the obvious immediate benefit of training obedience behaviors. While the effects of positive training can be found without a clicker, the use of a clicker when properly introduced with target training builds confidence in dogs. The clicker trained dog is in control of the training session and the reward because it learns that by offering behaviors it can procure the reward. Since the dog is a proactive participant to the training session , "offering behaviors" the dog is not bored or stressed by the session and sessions can last longer then usual. The clicker trained dog approaches the session with a willingness to succeed because it is in the dogs best interest. Clicker training teaches the dog to learn how to learn at a very young age and the dog carries this willingness to learn into adulthood. The lack of pressure helps the dog to retain its natural style as well as having its style shaped as in stacking when the dog is very young. The clicker can be incorporated into field work to use its notification to let the dog know when the behavior it is exhibiting is the one you want, then using the bird as the reward. The issue for most people with the clicker is they do not understand the basic concept of the method and how it relates to the entire training program. What Nate has eluded to is Georges program which takes into consideration the basic tenets of positive reinforcement with continuity throughout the entire program. Without the continuity of the program using notification for positive behaviors as well as negative notifiers for unwanted behaviors And subsequent correction ,people who try clicker training do not get the full benefit. Not to say anything about clicker training that has not been properly introduced or implemented. In short a dog that approaches every training session with a positive outlook will be far easier to train whether in the field or the yard. It should not be looked upon as a short cut or an extra step, it is just a method that helps the trainer communicate better to the dog which behaviors are acceptable or not.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by S&J gsp » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:04 pm

Clicker training is for house dogs not working dogs. It is nothing I would put any faith in, if a house dog don't obey a command it is not a big thing most are in a yard or on leash if a working dog don't obey a command it could be a matter of life or death. A good friend of mine lost two FC beagles to cars because he clicker trained come when they were young no discipline for non compliance.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by Doc E » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:36 pm

We've never had any problems just using Treat Training (operant conditioning) in puppies. I doubt if a clicker would have made things any better.
In his very first Hunt Test, Tucker (at 9 months of age) got three Ribbons.
One of which was in the UH (Upland Hunter) division, where a "Finished (Master) Level of Control" is required.

Here is a picture and caption from "Hunting Retriever" magazine.

Image



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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:10 pm

One of the things that really bothers me is that a few have decided how, what, and why a dog thinks. I wonder why the rest of us are so far behind and yet we end up doing most of the training and have most of the good dogs I read about. I continue to hear that FF is great because it gives the dog confidence and now we hear that clicker training give the dog even more confidence, and I am not sure I have met the dog that need a lot more confidence. With just a little more they may decide they don't need us anymore and just decide to go hunt without us. Now that I think of it I have had a few like that and I always blamed the dog and all that time he was just telling me what a great job I did and he no longer needed me. I make fun but there is a lot of truth in it too. I understand the people selling their methods by putting on seminars and writing books and making videos. It is a way to make a living and there are many people who can learn from them. But it still bothers me when you see all of these people doing their thing but many of them have never produced a great dog while others talk little but produce dog after dog that performs. And they did it without clickers or FF.

I have no problem with anyone training however they like and using whatever tools they care to use. But it is probably just me, but I have trouble when they tell me what I need to do because their way, produces superior results that shows they have an inside tract to the dogs brain and how it works and how it is making their dogs better than the rest.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by S&J gsp » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:55 am

Doc I have no problem treat training with pups but they need to know there are concquances for non compliance. Ezzy all the videos and seminars don't do any good if you just follow one person. I learned a long time ago the more information you gather the better your results will be. I was at a trail this weekend at the end of my brace the judge road over and completed me on how much improvement I've been able to make in my dog

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by Doc E » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:35 am

S&J gsp wrote:Doc I have no problem treat training with pups but they need to know there are concquances for non compliance. Ezzy all the videos and seminars don't do any good if you just follow one person. I learned a long time ago the more information you gather the better your results will be. I was at a trail this weekend at the end of my brace the judge road over and completed me on how much improvement I've been able to make in my dog

For us Lab crazies, we begin formal (enforced) training at about 5 months, where the dog learns that there are negative consequences associated with non-compliance.

I advise newbies to follow ONE program. Get help from others if there is a problem.
Once a person has trained a few dogs, "mix & match" can work well.


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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by 4dabirds » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:27 am

S&J gsp wrote:Clicker training is for house dogs not working dogs. It is nothing I would put any faith in, if a house dog don't obey a command it is not a big thing most are in a yard or on leash if a working dog don't obey a command it could be a matter of life or death. A good friend of mine lost two FC beagles to cars because he clicker trained come when they were young no discipline for non compliance.
Doc E wrote:
S&J gsp wrote:Doc I have no problem treat training with pups but they need to know there are concquances for non compliance.

For us Lab crazies, we begin formal (enforced) training at about 5 months, where the dog learns that there are negative consequences associated with non-compliance.

I
4dabirds wrote: What Nate has eluded to is Georges program which takes into consideration the basic tenets of positive reinforcement with continuity throughout the entire program. Without the continuity of the program using notification for positive behaviors as well as negative notifiers for unwanted behaviors And subsequent correction ,people who try clicker training do not get the full benefit. Not to say anything about clicker training that has not been properly introduced or implemented.
As usual the people who know nothing of clicker training have made comments of its efficacy while completely ignoring the part of the post which was directly addressed to them! Ezzy to ignore something and discount it as fiction with no evidence to the contrary is to say the least poor judgement. Your critique of clicker training is only based on your lack of knowledge of it and to me that is a sad position to be in.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:32 pm

Yep, think you are right. I have never found a need for it in field training so have to admit I don't know much about it except how it works. But if I start carrying a clicker rather than a gun I will probably learn more. But am happy you have found it a great aid in training.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:58 pm

It's difficult to say the least, to pursuade an experienced trainer to embrace an unfamiliar approach to training. That's why I give Hickox so much credit. I met George well before he adopted the positive reinforcement (clicker) methods he now uses. I can tell you that it has fundamentaly changed the way he and most of his students train dogs. I say most of his students, because there are always one or two at any given seminar who pay, but refuse to buy in.

Clicker training goes well beyond treat training. It is a means of communicating with any dog, allowing you to build trust and open a dogs mind to learning. This training method enables you to teach behaviors and cues in a positive manner, and make an easy transition to the e-collar.

Nate

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:32 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:It's difficult to say the least, to pursuade an experienced trainer to embrace an unfamiliar approach to training. That's why I give Hickox so much credit. I met George well before he adopted the positive reinforcement (clicker) methods he now uses. I can tell you that it has fundamentaly changed the way he and most of his students train dogs. I say most of his students, because there are always one or two at any given seminar who pay, but refuse to buy in.

Clicker training goes well beyond treat training. It is a means of communicating with any dog, allowing you to build trust and open a dogs mind to learning. This training method enables you to teach behaviors and cues in a positive manner, and make an easy transition to the e-collar.

Nate
I think you are missing the point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what ever method you want to use if it works for you. You bring up Hickox and the fact some people just don't buy in to what he has decided to do. Have you ever wondered why all of the trainers and seminars that are given, you are saying we all are wrong since we don't do it like George. Maybe the rest of the dog training world doesn't find the clicker help them train a bird dog. Are you telling us thay are all wrong and they should fix something that isn't broke. I would like to think George must have been having trouble and found something that helped him. And of course he wanted to help other people who were having trouble so he made some videos and sells them, not so he can live but just out of the goodness of his heart. So what do we tell Mo, Jonesy, Pete, Eldon, Brenda,and all of the other trainers that haven't got the message and are still teaching and doing it in some outdated archaic method that the dogs don't respond to. I have watched a couple of the videos and I see nothing magic about a brush pile, though it does provide a place to put the launcher or hide a bird. I usually have to use weeds, grass, or a bush to hide them I find the dogs do not respond real well to a clicker when they are several hundred yards away but if the dog is close it seems to work but the result still seems the same if you use it or not.

Use it, enjoy it, and I will do the same and I may get there before ye, but we won't know till we get there.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:17 pm

Lee_55 wrote:Hi All,
I will be bringing home a new Labrador puppy at the 7 week mark this May. My problem is that I am going to be away for work just 2 weeks into her stay with my wife and I. For the first two-weeks, I will be off work, and should get a lot of time with her, but after that, it will be Weekends, and hopefully every Wednesday. This will be my first dog from scratch, and though I plan on sending her to school when the time comes, but I am wondering if anyone sees my situation as a big problem. Are there things the wife can do during the days I am not around? Am I making a mountain out of a mole-hill?
Thanks in advance!
Lee
No ezzy I'm not missing the point. My initial post on this thread was a response to a question from a soon to be 7 week old puppy owner. This was not a personal crusade to get experienced trainers to use a clicker.

My second post to this thread was intended to help remove ignorance in regard to the value of clicker use in gundog training. This was not to try to convince anyone that thier training methods don't work. However, I do believe that we can all learn more about dogs and training techniques.

I don't believe that the latest gadget or trend is the only way to train a dog, if that's what's implied. In fact I'm currently re-reading Robert Wehle's, "Wing and Shot". Wehle's methods are hardly a new concept in dog training, and still much can be learned from his writing.

Nate

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by birdshot » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:21 am

LEE_55 I was in the same situation with my first lab. My wife was onboard with the training and when I came home the first weekend she had the dog sitting and crazy to fetch. She used treats for sitting and just let him fetch in the house, He was nine weeks old and I was a little jealous because he really bonded with her and returned the sock to her. I need not worried though because I started training him with birds and taking him out in the field he only went to her for treats. An added benefit of the wifes training him, was he was the only hunting dog I ever owned that she really liked. She only tolerates the rest of them. Good luck and enjoy the pup. Training is alot of fun. Just make him do what you want, and be ready to get some mud on you.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Lee_55 wrote:Hi All,
I will be bringing home a new Labrador puppy at the 7 week mark this May. My problem is that I am going to be away for work just 2 weeks into her stay with my wife and I. For the first two-weeks, I will be off work, and should get a lot of time with her, but after that, it will be Weekends, and hopefully every Wednesday. This will be my first dog from scratch, and though I plan on sending her to school when the time comes, but I am wondering if anyone sees my situation as a big problem. Are there things the wife can do during the days I am not around? Am I making a mountain out of a mole-hill?
Thanks in advance!
Lee

Have your wife take the pup everywhere - meet different people in different situations. As much as she can - take the pup along with her. Crate train her and just have your wife work on socializing the pup (watch out for unvaccinated dogs - NO DOG PARKS and no areas where other dogs frequent until your pup is fully vaccinated - 16wks). Find someone who has a friendly fully vaccinated dog and do some dog play dates with that dog. Set clear boundaries for the pup from day one that you and your wife agree on (dogs on or off couch? dog does or does not eat people food? dog sits before going outside or not?). Your wife will be your best advocate with the new pup - let her bond with the pup and have a fun time with the pup.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by Lee_55 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:51 pm

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the tips here, and think that I am going to get by just fine. I have to admit, I was worried about the pup really taking a liking to the wife, while I was gone, and not giving a hoot, when I come home, but I think I am worrying too much.
For those who are still following, I do have another thing I am wondering about: crate training/transportation.
I am going to do crate train, but I am wondering about night-time, and maybe letting the dog lay in a dog-bed. Does anyone move the crate to their bedroom during the evening for bed-time? What are peoples experiences with having the dog use a crate, and a normal dog-bed at some point? All the dogs I ever owned were just house animals, and laying at your feet was perfectly acceptable (possibly desirable) behavior.
Last, I am trying to figure out the best situation for transporting the dog. I drive a small Nissan pick-up, think:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=nis ... edIndex=21

I would like to have the dog accompany me during the 2-3 hour trips to the hunting areas. Having company in the truck sounds nice. I think I could get her to fit behind the seats where the two jumper-seats are, maybe lay down a tarp, and then her bed for when the rainy season hits. That, or pull the passenger seat, and put a crate it. Maybe I am trying to have my cake and eat it too here, but putting the dog in a crate in the bed and driving through the rainy winter for 2-3 hours sounds like no fun for me, or the dog.
Any thoughts on either of these?
Thanks,
Lee

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by Bberry20 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:57 pm

My dogs sleep in their kennel at night. When my pup was young i had the crate in my room. Ease of hearing them wake up to use the restroom. Now that mine is a year old they are out in the other room. I think you would be fine with whatever you choose to do. I know a lot of people who let the dog sleep in bed with them too. WHatever your preference is i would say go with that.

I have an SUV so my crate is in the back, but here in ND many a hunter travels with their dogs in the crate in the bed. If it is rainy, snowy, or cold, you could get a insulated crate cover for it. I see alot of them on the roads and they seem to work well. Good luck with the pup and have fun!

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:51 pm

Lee_55 wrote: I would like to have the dog accompany me during the 2-3 hour trips to the hunting areas. Having company in the truck sounds nice. I think I could get her to fit behind the seats where the two jumper-seats are, maybe lay down a tarp, and then her bed for when the rainy season hits. That, or pull the passenger seat, and put a crate it. Maybe I am trying to have my cake and eat it too here, but putting the dog in a crate in the bed and driving through the rainy winter for 2-3 hours sounds like no fun for me, or the dog.
Any thoughts on either of these?
Thanks,
Lee
Whatever sleeping / kenneling arrangements you choose to have in the house should work their way out in time. I think you may be over thinking some of trivial stuff a little too much. As long as you make his kennel a safe zone, and crate him when he's unsupervised you should be fine. Be sure to take him outside to his potty spot every time he is let out of the kennel. Praise him (or click and treat him) when he relieves himself in the chosen spot. Don't let him sleep on the bed. This can create a whole new set of problems. He needs to have his own place in the house, and boundries must be set early on.

Concerning travel. I like to have the kennels in the back of the truck. (Consider getting a topper for your Nissan. You should be able to find a good deal on Craigslist.) Praise him when you place him in the kennel. I always let a young pup lay on the front passenger seat on a blanket when I go to work, to the store, the park, etc... Socialize him as much as possible. I like to utilize this time for bonding as well. Give him something to chew on, and he'll be happy. Boundries need to be set here also. No lap landing!

Whenever you have a human passenger in the truck or need to leave him alone, place him and his blanket in the kennel.

Nate

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by tdbmd » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:22 pm

I will be picking up a new Vizsla pup at the end of May. I am new to puppies but have had a few bird dogs, but many years ago.

I read alot about crate training. Is there a article or resource that someone could suggest so that I can better understand what to do in regards to crate training?

Thanks.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by moxie » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:49 am

tdbmd wrote:I will be picking up a new Vizsla pup at the end of May. I am new to puppies but have had a few bird dogs, but many years ago.

I read alot about crate training. Is there a article or resource that someone could suggest so that I can better understand what to do in regards to crate training?

Thanks.
I am pretty new at this, Bullet is only 15 weeks so I've only had him for 6 weeks. Seems much longer!

I have read a great deal of material about raising puppies so I can share some of what I found:
There is a good short and concise section in this article here: http://www.kninebirddog.com/puppy-foundations.html
I would recommend picking up Joan Bailey's How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves http://www.amazon.com/Themselves-Taking ... 0963012746
Lots of good guidance on the crate and general puppy conditioning.

Bullet has been in the crate from the first night we brought him home.The first night was very hard as he was none to pleased to be all alone in a new place, it got better over the next few weeks.
Expect lots of whining, crying, howling, yiping, etc. We never went near his crate when he was making any noise and he only comes out of the crate when he is sitting or laying calmly.

For the first few weeks I would set an alarm and wake up in the middle of the night to take him out to void. These trips consisted of me carrying him to his spot, letting him void out with praise and then carrying him immediately back to the crate. I didnt want him to get the idea that it was play time at 2:30 in the morning. You can extend the night time hours for a little bit as the pup makes progress.

We also crate Bullet in the car when we take trips, same rules always applied. No attention or being let out if a single noise was being made.
When we visit a friends house we will usually let him run around for a while and have some play time, but during dinner or whatever other activities we will place him in the crate in an out of the way room.
I can honestly say that all of the effort with the crate has been very successful. I have a dog that understands restriction and can be put up when I can't properly supervise him and he can enjoy his alone time.

One final tip I picked up on here was the idea of the Magic Treat Box.
My wife or I would randomly place a treat in the crate when bullet wasn't looking, bullet would occasionally start checking the crate and find the treats which leads to more self driven trips to the crate.
I think it helped him love his space even more.

Sorry for the novel, I am not an expert but I just wanted to share my own personal experiences so far. If you are asking the questions I think you are probably on the right track.

EDIT: One thing to add that I wish I would have started sooner, we now make Bullet sit or lay calmly in the crate with the door open for a short time (started with a few seconds, now up to 10 seconds+) when it's time to come out. We then give him a signal to release and he can leave the crate. We have found this behavior to be more desirable, and probably safer, than his previous mad dash from the crate.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by EvanG » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:23 pm

ImageImage

The Smartwork Puppy Program is a key component of the Smartwork system for Retrievers, and is important preparation for formal Basics. That begins at about 6 months of age, and will form the foundation of your working retriever. There is no more detailed or easy to follow program. Let me know anytime I can be of help.

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The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by tdbmd » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:49 pm

Thanks for all the great responses so far. Any advice is appreciated.

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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by tdbmd » Fri May 24, 2013 6:25 am

So, leaving this morning to head to SD to pick up the puppy! My daughter (10 years old) is beyond excited and I am excited as well. Hopefully our Corgi will not be too jealous. We have a new crate for her, so are ready for transport and crate training (I hope!)

DoubleBarrel GunDogs
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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sun May 26, 2013 8:52 am

tdbmd wrote: Hopefully our Corgi will not be too jealous.
That's one thing you can usually count on. Be careful when introducing your new pup to your other dog. Its best to do it on neutral ground. There are some territorial rules and boundaries to be addressed in your home, and you don't want pup to get hurt in the process.

Nate

tdbmd
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Re: New Puppy Advice

Post by tdbmd » Sun May 26, 2013 8:40 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
tdbmd wrote: Hopefully our Corgi will not be too jealous.
That's one thing you can usually count on. Be careful when introducing your new pup to your other dog. Its best to do it on neutral ground. There are some territorial rules and boundaries to be addressed in your home, and you don't want pup to get hurt in the process.

Nate

Thanks. It has been going OK. The Corgi has had some grumbling, but no real animosity.

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