2 pups... Help needed

[BigJoe8504]

Hello, I recently got 2 puppies (I wanted one, guy showed up with both to show us, my wife wanted both... we got 2) that are English Pointer/ GSP mixes. I don't have any way to permanently separate them other than putting one outside and 1 inside. I am in a pickle as I am pretty confident in my ability to at least obedience train 1, although most of my knowlege is based on years of hounds (and the somewhat seemingly harsh methods of thraining them) and never more than 1 at a time. I'm looking into books, but I need help from the ground up at this point. Are there any books or book series that I could use to explain in detail some of the basic obedience and then into actual hunting training? I have been told by multiple people in my area to use Wolters Family dog, then into Gun dog/ Water Dog/ Game Dog, but I have also been told these methods don't work by many people.

On another note, I have 1 kennel for inside (was only expecting 1 dog) and I am certain I am going to need 2 based on the experiences i've had with some leash training. If you know of anyone that has a spare kennel laying around that is clean enough or can be cleaned enough to be inside please PM me.

Thx for any help you can offer.

[DogNewbie]

Yes, get a second kennel. They'll want their own personal space. Have them take turns being with you and the wife while the other one is left in the kennel. You want the pups to bond with you not with each other.

[BigJoe8504]

Also just realized I forgot to say they are about 5 months old... I got them about a month ago...

1 of the pups was doing OK with potty training, but with her being in a kennel while i'm at work (or until my wife gets off) she still pees in the kennel a lot.
The other pup seems to have no hold on peeing. if she is excited or just needs to pee she just does it.. no prep and her squat is more like she is going to jump (another issue we have w both of them as we have a 3 year old)

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I recommend using the Smith system in your situation. Check out www.huntsmith.com I think you'll find the chain gang extremely useful for all 3 dogs. If your wife is adamant about keeping 3 dogs, its important that she is involved in training. Consistency will be your biggest challenge here. As long as your both on the same page, you'll be fine.

I'd also suggest that you get the pups spayed before their first heat cycle.

Good luck, and keep posting. This one will be very interesting.

Nate

[ezzy333]

Do not spay before maturity unless you don't mind there is a great chance you will end up paying thousands of dollars for medical problems that can be repaired and living with the ones that can't. I have no idea why anyone today would recommend that they be spayed early.

Ezzy

[mask]

Dave Walkers book would also be a good bet. Altering working dogs befor maturity has been known to cause some problems.

[BigJoe8504]

Thanks for the responses. The "Smith Method" is delmar smith's method as seen in Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog: The Delmar Smith Method correct? if so I have planned to get that book. Are there any others that you may recommend?

As for spaying, My wife does not beleive in spaying. That being said I still may do it, but it will probably be past their first heat. I'm not worried about them getting pregnant as both are females and I have a solid back yard. I'm also well versed in avoiding other dogs when your female is in heat. Personnally I understand the idea of responsible breeding and if something were to happen it would be of my choice that it did (again I owned hounds (and until now all were registered) most of my life and cared for my share of litters).

[DogNewbie]

Also just realized I forgot to say they are about 5 months old... I got them about a month ago...

1 of the pups was doing OK with potty training, but with her being in a kennel while i'm at work (or until my wife gets off) she still pees in the kennel a lot.
The other pup seems to have no hold on peeing. if she is excited or just needs to pee she just does it.. no prep and her squat is more like she is going to jump (another issue we have w both of them as we have a 3 year old)

This sounds like a tough road you're heading down. I'm assuming these are litter mates? Do you have any info on how the previous owner was handling the situation? These two may well have already bonded with each other and established a pecking order. This could result in the non alpha dog taking cues from the alpha dog and not from you. I'd separate these two 24/7 for a few months if I were you. My uncle had issues with a dog bonding with his older dog and not him and it was almost untrainable because it was always trying to follow the alpha dogs cues not his. He couldn't get the dog to come unless the older dog came. Excited peeing is also something my uncle has had to deal with. Hate to say it but this is something you're going to struggle with for a long time. That was the first thing my uncle told me to do when I picked up my pup...look to see if he peed when he met me.

[RoostersMom]

Separate them as much as you can handle. I would not let them together in the same space for more than an hour a day. Google littermate syndrome. It can have lasting bad effects on a dog. I have lived it - it's not pretty when it happens. Separation isn't forever, just for the first year. You want the dogs dependent on YOU for everything good - not on the other dog. I don't even kennel them together for the first year if I have littermates or pups that are the same age.

Normal obedience can be expected at this age. Crate train them both - and if the one is still having issues with excited or submissive peeing - make sure she doesn't have a UTI (urinary tract infection). Then you just need to keep everything around her calm (no excitement when you arrive home) and she'll likely grow out of it. As for the jumping on your kid - just teach a "sit" or a "kennel" command and make the dog listen when greeting a newcomer in the home (or when your daughter is around).

That said - also get a Perfect Start DVD (www.perfectionkennel.com) and use the puppy introduction to birds and gunfire - it's one of the best methods out there. A tired puppy is a good puppy. Separate walks and separate exercise sessions would benefit both pups. As much as I hate to admit it .... I agree with Ezzy on the timing of your spaying the pups. Wait until the dog has fully matured before spaying - about 18 months or so.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Do not spay before maturity unless you don't mind there is a great chance you will end up paying thousands of dollars for medical problems that can be repaired and living with the ones that can't. I have no idea why anyone today would recommend that they be spayed early.

Ezzy

1. Please give us your definition of maturity.

2. Please don't make claims of potential health problems without providing evidence.

3. Here is one idea why:

For veterinary practitioners, the ideal time for gonadectomy of female dogs is probably after the completion of vaccinations at 4 to 5 months but before the dog’s first estrous cycle, after which there is higher risk for mammary cancer and unplanned litters.
(Source: www.avma.org February 1, 2004)

Nate

[mask]

There are plenty of studys that show it is better to wait to alter working dogs, especialy breeds that might be prone to joint problems. People that are not able to stop their gyps from being bred should spay as soon as possible or if bred get the shot to abort, or not have females in the first place.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Thanks for the responses. The "Smith Method" is delmar smith's method as seen in Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog: The Delmar Smith Method correct? if so I have planned to get that book. Are there any others that you may recommend?

Correct.

Delmar's son Rick and his nephew Ronnie have put out several good DVD's as well. The "Silent Command System" is what they call their training method. They also have excellent seminars all over the country each year. Check out this site for more info. http://www.huntsmith.com

Regardless of the training method you choose to follow, find a system that you like, and follow through with it. If not for your sake, then for the sake of these two pups.

Another good book worth reading: Robert Wehle's, Wing & Shot

Nate

[4dabirds]

Google culture clash by jean Donaldson PDF

[BigJoe8504]

Thanks all for the responses.

I want to separate them but to do that at this point would be bring 1 inside and leave the other outside in a 8x16 kennel. would you consider this cruel? they are both working separately pretty well (they are both in the 8x16 kennel atm) on the commands HERE and SIT. (I had to teach sit to have control over them when they start jumping on my 3 year old. No or as I use EEEGGGGHHH didn't seem to stop the first wave of jumps.) I acquired the perfection kennels dvd, and I like the content. my pups seem to be more puppy than some of them they show on the videos though. How many birds would I expect to need to buy to have a huntable dog when going this route? Money is an issue for training. otherwise I'm training lap dogs according to the old lady.

[RoostersMom]

Personally, I would do whatever was necessary to separate them. Take turns with one outside and one in. Keep one crated while the other is out and about - that kind of thing.

[kninebirddog]

Here are some studies and info about what Early Spays and Neuters can do to young dogs
http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_det ... o?id=10498
http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/news/ ... early.html


You can Google Early Spay and Neuter or Sport dogs and early spay and neuters and get more info

[kninebirddog]

Here is a couple more
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

[ezzy333]

Do not spay before maturity unless you don't mind there is a great chance you will end up paying thousands of dollars for medical problems that can be repaired and living with the ones that can't. I have no idea why anyone today would recommend that they be spayed early.

Ezzy

1. Please give us your definition of maturity.

2. Please don't make claims of potential health problems without providing evidence.

3. Here is one idea why:

For veterinary practitioners, the ideal time for gonadectomy of female dogs is probably after the completion of vaccinations at 4 to 5 months but before the dog’s first estrous cycle, after which there is higher risk for mammary cancer and unplanned litters.
(Source: http://www.avma.org February 1, 2004)

Nate

[ezzy333]

Do not spay before maturity unless you don't mind there is a great chance you will end up paying thousands of dollars for medical problems that can be repaired and living with the ones that can't. I have no idea why anyone today would recommend that they be spayed early.

Ezzy

1. Please give us your definition of maturity.

2. Please don't make claims of potential health problems without providing evidence.

3. Here is one idea why:

For veterinary practitioners, the ideal time for gonadectomy of female dogs is probably after the completion of vaccinations at 4 to 5 months but before the dog’s first estrous cycle, after which there is higher risk for mammary cancer and unplanned litters.
(Source: http://www.avma.org February 1, 2004)

Nate

Nate when I wrote books or other official papers I always listed sources. Just had no idea when in a friendly conversation with someone that I needed to provide the sources for what I say, especially when it is a pretty well known fact that has been talked about for several years and is well established in the sporting dog field. Probably been talked about 50 times here on this board over the past several years. In a case like this if you need confirmation, ask or look it up yourself would be the general rule I go by.

Conversations with fellow dog owners is quite different than reporting a scientific document.

[BigJoe8504]

Not to take away from the spay day discussion but I have already stated I don't plan to spay them unless my wife changes her mind about the situation. I am fairly experienced with raising non spayed females without a problem.