FF

[Tooling]

So I have been trying to bring out what natural retrieve I have in my pup and have failed. Was looking promising at one point but he now will just run to the downed bird and look at it like, "ok..it's dead", lets move on and find another".

He is 1 yr and I am going to FF him using the SmartFetch program. I have been told no field work (birds) while FF outside of just a run in the field but no birds??? If I don't try to get a fetch out of him or pressure him in other ways..why not?

[Doc E]

FF is a "one thing at a time" process.
NO birds, no retrieving ----- No nuthin' except FF & obedience until FF is finished.


.

[Tooling]

I can appreciate that..but why? As I said, if he is not pressured or I don't try to "train" him...why?

I really don't want to take anything out of him because he is very enthusiastic about the whole deal...except fetch.

[Deuce]

As long as you're not trying to uphold a standard that the dog doesn't know you should be fine. I went much slower with my FF process, I started to hold training before hunting season and am just now extending my pile work. If you're doing bird work and shoot one, don't tell the dog to fetch until it know what it means and it's collar conditioned. Freeze some of your birds and use them during your ear pinch and collar conditioning process too. Once they're collar conditioned and have good manners, probably after walking fetch, drop one for the dog and give them your fetch command with a nick. I found it very beneficial to help the dog see the bigger picture.

[ezzy333]

I am confused now. Are you guys trying to say the tried and true method that the Pros seem to adhere pretty close to is bogus? You are going to upset a lot of them that have been doing FF for years and thought they knew the best method that works.

Ezzy

[Deuce]

I'm saying that what I did worked for me, and worked quite well... YRMV...

[RoostersMom]

IMO, FF is unpleasant. For you.. for the dog. I have seen a pro recently that does FF regularly and likes to do it. She takes approximately 3 weeks (some dogs are longer of course). She works the dogs 3 X's per day in short sessions. After working with her, I promptly took my GSP pup, EP female, and our chessie and finished the FF in less than a month. I feel as though you want to get it over with as soon as possible since it is not a positive or pleasant experience for you or the dog. Mine all handled it fine, but I'm glad I pushed through and did the two a days and finished up within the month. They retrieve enthusiastically - but it is a draining type of training for the handler (at least it was for me). The dog wants to quit on you - you have to use more pressure....it is not one of my favorite things to do. However, I now have 3 more reliable retrievers in the family - where before they would retrieve most of the time, now they retrieve every time. They know that "fetch" is a command - they know they have to obey.

I think keeping the dog mentally in the game with FF is the way to go. It's like the army 'breaking you down to build you up' process - you need to be fully in the game. I didn't do anything with the dogs during FF except for FF. I wanted them "in the game."

[Tooling]

As long as you're not trying to uphold a standard that the dog doesn't know you should be fine. I went much slower with my FF process, I started to hold training before hunting season and am just now extending my pile work. If you're doing bird work and shoot one, don't tell the dog to fetch until it know what it means and it's collar conditioned. Freeze some of your birds and use them during your ear pinch and collar conditioning process too. Once they're collar conditioned and have good manners, probably after walking fetch, drop one for the dog and give them your fetch command with a nick. I found it very beneficial to help the dog see the bigger picture.

Not trying to uphold a standard is kinda' what I'm saying to try and give the boy a break. I know my dog and he is going to hate me for it but I don't want to sound like a sap either because that's not the case. Pressure confuses my pup and his head hangs low but a good fun day on birds always works for him to keep the enthusiasm up. I do not want to put a time schedule on things and want the dog to set the pace but that said...geez I want it done as quickly as possible and hope it goes that way. That said I by ALL means do not want to "shortcut" the process because neither of us likes it...I want it EFECTIVELY done!

I think I just REALLY need to go at a pace w/out the temptation of moving on until he really understands what he is doing is right with his tail up step by step...am I setting myself and my pup up for failure with that attitude because of the pressure involved and the need to move on?

[Tooling]

I think keeping the dog mentally in the game with FF is the way to go. It's like the army 'breaking you down to build you up' process - you need to be fully in the game. I didn't do anything with the dogs during FF except for FF. I wanted them "in the game."

There's a lot to be said with that approach too!

[Doc E]

1. IMO, FF is unpleasant. For you.. for the dog.

2. though you want to get it over with as soon as possible since it is not a positive or pleasant experience for you or the dog. but it is a draining type of training for the handler (at least it was for me).

3. The dog wants to quit on you -

4. you have to use more pressure....it is not one of my favorite things to do.

5. However, I now have 3 more reliable retrievers in the family - where before they would retrieve most of the time, now they retrieve every time. They know that "fetch" is a command - they know they have to obey.

6. I didn't do anything with the dogs during FF except for FF.

1. I disagree --- when done properly
2. I still disagree
3. That's part of the process --- the dog learns to handle "pressure"
4. Not usually true
5. Excellent ! As well it should be !
6. I agree.



.

[RoostersMom]

1. I disagree --- when done properly
2. I still disagree
3. That's part of the process --- the dog learns to handle "pressure"
4. Not usually true
5. Excellent ! As well it should be !
6. I agree.



.[/quote]

I've successfully FF'd 5 dogs. I know that's not a ton, but it's a good number compared to some on here. I have found some part of each FF training to be unpleasant - and I believe I am doing it properly. I know you're teaching the dog to handle "pressure" - that is the unpleasant part for me and also I believe, for the dog. Yes, it's good for the dog, yes, the dog needs it - but I believe it is unpleasant. You can disagree all you want - but I find it unpleasant. My dogs eventually get through it with a good attitude, but there is a point in there when you're getting them through the "I quit" phase that is no fun. Maybe I'm not normal - but I do find that part of FF to be unpleasant. I think it's necessary - but I don't think it's always enjoyable.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

1. IMO, FF is unpleasant. For you.. for the dog.

2. though you want to get it over with as soon as possible since it is not a positive or pleasant experience for you or the dog. but it is a draining type of training for the handler (at least it was for me).

3. The dog wants to quit on you -

4. you have to use more pressure....it is not one of my favorite things to do.

5. However, I now have 3 more reliable retrievers in the family - where before they would retrieve most of the time, now they retrieve every time. They know that "fetch" is a command - they know they have to obey.

6. I didn't do anything with the dogs during FF except for FF.

1. I disagree --- when done properly
2. I still disagree
3. That's part of the process --- the dog learns to handle "pressure"
4. Not usually true
5. Excellent ! As well it should be !
6. I agree.



.

I agree with you Doc. All except for the initial phase of the force fetch. It is usually pretty unpleasant. Some dogs are easier than others.
Hey! 5 1/2 out of 6 ain't bad.

Nate

[campgsp]

I can appreciate that..but why? As I said, if he is not pressured or I don't try to "train" him...why?

I really don't want to take anything out of him because he is very enthusiastic about the whole deal...except fetch.

Because even if you think your not training by "playing" fetch with him you really are. Everything you do with a dog is "training" just hooking the leash to the collar is training. Your teaching them to allbide by what you want them to do or what you want to do to them.

When you are in the process of ff training the reason no other training besides obedience is done is because you do not want to confuse the dog, or make it harder on yourself. For example, your teaching the dog to pick up the object off the table on the command fetch. Then later that day you throw a bumper for them tell them to fetch and they refuse. Guess what now you just set yourself back a day because you had no control over the situation, you couldn't get your hands on the dog at the precise moment he refused. That is the most important thing in any training timing and getting hold of the dog. There is no fast route to ff. Patients, time and not moving forward to quickly are your best friends. If it take a month longer for one dog then it did the next so be it. In the end the dog and you will both benefit from it. The bond is like no other after ff.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

campgsp,
Good post.

The ff done properly will create a bolder and more confident dog. One that's not apprehensive or confused when commanded to retrieve.

Nate

[Tooling]

I can appreciate that..but why? As I said, if he is not pressured or I don't try to "train" him...why?

I really don't want to take anything out of him because he is very enthusiastic about the whole deal...except fetch.

Because even if you think your not training by "playing" fetch with him you really are. Everything you do with a dog is "training" just hooking the leash to the collar is training. Your teaching them to allbide by what you want them to do or what you want to do to them.

When you are in the process of ff training the reason no other training besides obedience is done is because you do not want to confuse the dog, or make it harder on yourself. For example, your teaching the dog to pick up the object off the table on the command fetch. Then later that day you throw a bumper for them tell them to fetch and they refuse. Guess what now you just set yourself back a day because you had no control over the situation, you couldn't get your hands on the dog at the precise moment he refused. That is the most important thing in any training timing and getting hold of the dog. There is no fast route to ff. Patients, time and not moving forward to quickly are your best friends. If it take a month longer for one dog then it did the next so be it. In the end the dog and you will both benefit from it. The bond is like no other after ff.

I appreciate your having taken the time to write all of that and I also very much appreciate your experience/advice.

Did you read my posts at all?

What kind of moron would try to play fetch w/bumpers during FF training...sorry to be so blunt but do read my posted question.

Ok let me lay out the scenario

Take dog to field
Let Dog hunt 'em up
Say not a word whilst dog is on point nor check cord him
Dog busts bird...not a word
Dog stands bird...great...shoot bird
Dog runs and picks up bird...not a word and move on
Dog carries bird...not a word
Dog drops bird...not a word
Dog ignores bird...not a word
Dog goes out and fetches bird and brings it in w/no command...GOOD BOY
Next Bird...same thing

Dog Happy and has gotten a nice break

Not trying to be sarcastic at all...just looking for an answer based on logic why the above would affect dog.


All that said..I believe I've been advised by many whom are much smarter than me on this subject to keep it as simple as possible and to keep him ,"in it". I think I'll follow this advice. I have never FF'ed and the truth is that I am a bit leary about it as well as a bit nervous myself. I REALLY REALLY do not want to take anything out of him!!

[Tooling]

I have a very bold and Independant dog. And he is so enthusiastic when he knows he is pleasing. I mean this pup comes running when I call him in and hops 3 ft in the air at his approach landing right at my feet with eagerness and enthusiasm to hunt. I've put him in a couple of JH tests which confused the living heck out him and we are now "coming back" from that.
Never should have put him in them and will not do it again.

Senior..maybe
Junior...not a chance

[campgsp]

I think my point goes across the board. Use "bird" instead of "bumper" and its the same difference. If you go out in the field with birds while you are doing ff at the same time you are doing nothing more then hurting yourself and confusing the dog. Plain and simple.
During ff you are making the dog do what you want.

Going out and shooting birds and saying nothing....
The only thing you are teaching the dog by doing it the way you described is that he only needs to retrieve when he wants to not when you want him to.
He goes picks up bird drops it and moves on. What exactly do you think the dog is learning by doing that? ?
A bit confusing oft the dog, because yesterday you were making him pick it up today he does what he wants which is it dad? The only thing I can tell you is stick to the program. Or to hire someone to do it for you.

If you want it done right, then no bird work is to be done when ff a dog. Plain and simple.
Straight answer to your question- ( you will CONFUSE your dog by doing bird work while doing ff training. key word CONFUSE. Ask yourself do you want him to retrieve for himself or for you? Then decide if ff is right for your situation.

Good luck.

Ps.. your dog Will not hate you for it. You'll both be better buds afterwards. If done right. I guarantee it.