Place Oriented

[S&J gsp]

I've been seeing that more and more. A canine is not place oriented we make them that way. If you take a pup and do all the obedience in the same place than that's where it is most obedient if you take that same pup and start his obedience in the yard than move to a city park, a school yard, in the house, in a parking lot than he is obedience trained he has to listen anywhere he is. I've even taken them to a field with birds in it because you never know what might arise when hunting

[Deuce]

I agree completely. Well said.

[whoadog]

If you take a pup and do all the obedience in the same place than that's where it is most obedient

I respectfully disagree. My definition of "place oriented" is apparently different from yours. My definition of place oriented is that the dog associates commands/reinforcement with the 2'x2' piece of earth he is standing on when the command/reinforcement is given. That's why, imo, tools like whoa boards are effective. It is also part of the reason I believe in the 2 second rule (no punishment/praise given if more than 2 seconds has elapsed between the behavior and the reinforcement). I believe what the quote above is most accurately describing is situational awareness of not only the dog but also the handler. My example: Pup is whoa trained in the yard and readily stops and stands there. I take him to a field, whoa him and he stops. We work the field and a bird pops. I try to whoa pup but he ignores and chases. This example has little to do with the place and a great deal more to do with the situation. Of course, the first time in a field is an entirely new situation as well. In my experience, proper yard work that has been executed over a long enough period of time and has been converted to long term memory is effective no matter the location. My dogs will heel off leash walking down a city street with all kinds of distractions buzzing around just as well as they will in the quiet of my back yard. My dogs will do this because of my focus on the dog and not the distractions. When something happens out of the ordinary, it does not take me a few seconds to react and reinforce/punish positive or negative behavior.

[S&J gsp]

If canines are place oriented than why are coyotes and wolves still here they are canines and move place to place. Whoa boards work because people make them work dog on board stop them and nag any dog enough and they stop on the board every time they get close I'm not saying change what works for you just don't push it on every body else

[4dabirds]

You are missing the point completely. What you describe as training in different places is exactly what place oriented means. When you train a dog in a place the dog only understands the command in that place till you generalize the command to other locations. The place board is a tool that is used in recognition of this to help the dog associate a specific place when learning whoa as a new command. Once the dog gets the place the board is removed . Since the dog does not speak English this helps the dog understand the concept of standing still.

[S&J gsp]

I understand completely but someone else brought up place boards not me. I just made a general statement that canines are not place orianted. I can't read their minds but I can get across what I want from them. Personally don't push what I do on anybody I have my way you have George's way all is good

[ACooper]

I wonder if I can bring my place board along to my next trial so my dog will stand to wing and shot?

[4dabirds]

Who said any thing about pushing a method on other people. You are saying dogs are not place oriented and in the same breath saying you have to train in different places. The reason you have to train in different places is because dogs are place oriented. If you only train in one place the dog will not understand the command in a different place. When you change from place to place the dog may not understand what is expected the trainer who does not recognize this is liable to place more pressure on the dog thinking it understands the command. This is typically canine behavior across the board . Nothing to do with hickox. Coyotes and wolves are not dogs if they were you could train them to hunt for you with an e collar and check cord

[ezzy333]

Who said any thing about pushing a method on other people. You are saying dogs are not place oriented and in the same breath saying you have to train in different places. The reason you have to train in different places is because dogs are place oriented. If you only train in one place the dog will not understand the command in a different place. When you change from place to place the dog may not understand what is expected the trainer who does not recognize this is liable to place more pressure on the dog thinking it understands the command. This is typically canine behavior across the board . Nothing to do with hickox. Coyotes and wolves are not dogs if they were you could train them to hunt for you with an e collar and check cord

I don't know if anyone said you were pushing a method on others but if they haven't I will. That is all you have done since day one on this board. I have never heard a single word about you or your dogs but continuely hear about Hickox, what he writes, what he does, and what he says. And not one original thought.

I understand you don't need to be a trainer or have a clue about training to be on the net, but it sure would be nice to see what you produce and how you discovered what works and what doesn't. There are a lot of trainers who are training every day for a living and I don't know of any that do it like hickox except for one and I am not sure what he turns out other than articles and dvd's trying to make a living.

Ezzy

[S&J gsp]

4dabirds I'm not a Pro Trainer but I've been competing for a while in dog sports from Coon Hounds to Schutzhund to NSTRA I've placed dogs in all. I've currently got one I'm competing and one I've trained competing. I don't train for money never will I do it because I enjoy watching good dogs come togather. I've seen a lot of dogs over the years. I won't pay for a seminar I've learned hands on from some very good trainers. So if you want to research my NSTRA record look up Smoke and Zeus on NSTRA wed site.

[Chukar12]

If you don't believe dogs are place oriented consider their reaction to specific events. I have had dogs chased by wild stallions that lay down under the truck when you let them out . I know a trial dog that won't run on particular grounds where it was bitten by s whistle pig How many dogs do you know that beeline to a productive objective on familiar grounds.

The term is employed so that neophytes understand that a dog will react differently here v there until they are conditioned through repetition in multiple environments Even then they default to danger or reward.

[S&J gsp]

Is it not the dogs job to hit likely objectives to find birds

[Chukar12]

of course it is ...
and if you see enough dogs you will note the dogs that are in direct route to simply what they remember. They will cat walk in and then move to the next Place oriented is a broad term that describes inarguable behavior in a number of different behaviors seen in dogs.

I won't argue this too long ..but any dog has a hard time out producing a dog that has skills and grew up on specific grounds ..until you take him to places and birds he has never seen.

[ACooper]

I understand completely but someone else brought up place boards not me. I just made a general statement that canines are not place orianted. I can't read their minds but I can get across what I want from them. Personally don't push what I do on anybody I have my way you have George's way all is good

Not sure I follow you, if they are not place oriented why do you need to train in multiple locations?

[ezzy333]

of course it is ...
and if you see enough dogs you will note the dogs that are in direct route to simply what they remember. They will cat walk in and then move to the next Place oriented is a broad term that describes inarguable behavior in a number of different behaviors seen in dogs.

I won't argue this too long ..but any dog has a hard time out producing a dog that has skills and grew up on specific grounds ..until you take him to places and birds he has never seen.

I agree with what you said but I have trouble putting that in the place oriented column any more than you remembering what drawer your sox are in. I think there is some validity to place oriented but not to the extent we are stating here. Dogs do remember, dogs do get comfortable in familiar places, and they also tend to lose their concentration when surrounded with new things just like their trainer. And we know he isn't place oriented.

Ezzy

[S&J gsp]

I train several different places to let them know no matter what I'm in charge

[Chukar12]

its simply a way to define exactly that Ezzy. Ole Cletus the trainer is distracted at his first trial, first major etc....after enough exposure the distraction does not supersede the business at hand

[4dabirds]

Really Ezzie you must come clean . Did George steal your lunch money or something. I post what I have learned wether it is from George Or a book Or a local pro. We all know you do not like George or anybody that makes a living from dog training. But please stick to the issue. S&j gsp Made a statement unsolicited that he did not believe dogs are place oriented. Obviously you agree with him and I and a few others disagree. Whether I learned this from George and you learned your stance from someone else does not give you the rite to attack me ,George or any body else for their opinion. People are allowed to disagree , that is what forums are for. I see no place on this forum where it says " Ezzies forum , the opinions herein are the express dominion of the great ezzie won kinobi all others and there opinions should go to another forum if they do not agree with the great one ! CLICK HERE IF YOU AGREE WITH OUR TERMS . The fact of the matter is I disagree with almost everything you say. Then I have to wonder with all of your knowledge, how it is that I am able to train a dog in the first place if I have not agreed with you . Let me just conclude by writing that dogs are place oriented and any body that thinks otherwise should go to a different forum if they do not want to read it. Just fair warning I may write it again in the future !

[brad27]

I've been seeing that more and more. A canine is not place oriented we make them that way. If you take a pup and do all the obedience in the same place than that's where it is most obedient if you take that same pup and start his obedience in the yard than move to a city park, a school yard, in the house, in a parking lot than he is obedience trained he has to listen anywhere he is. I've even taken them to a field with birds in it because you never know what might arise when hunting

If a dog wasn't place oriented you wouldn't need to take them to a city park, school yard, house and parking lot. You could teach everything in the yard and it would transfer to other places. A child doesn't learn 1+1=2 in school, then comes home and you have to teach them 1+1=2 again.

[S&J gsp]

OK I proof all my dogs obediance that way if I'm hunting or trailing or just out to let them free run. When I say it is time to whoa or come they do it they could be at 100 yards or 800 yards they do it regardless of distractions. That is why I take them several places. Sorry I still not bevelive that a canine is place ordinated I know they learn by assoation that is why I proof all my dogs.

[whoadog]

Will S&J or someone who agrees with him please give me a more exact definition of what you mean by place oriented? I'm not sure we are participating in the same discussion.

Also, since qualifications seem to be a part of this thread, more on me:
I started out in hounds with my dad around the time I started walking. I'm 51 now so I have been around sporting dogs for 50 years or so. My first "lesson" in dog training came when I was 3. I remember it clearly as he bit all the way through my nose. I tried to pull a young coon hound pup off a kitten I was partial to and he turned and bit me through the nose. When I ran crying to Dad he said, "What did you expect? He was doing exactly what he was bred to do and what I have been training him to do." I started in bird dogs in my early 20's so I've been around mostly pointing breeds for around 30 years. I completely screwed up my first Brittany, a dog that should have been the best one I have ever owned. I made a serious study of bird dog training after that. Part of that study was working professionally with a well-respected retriever trainer who has won the national championship in the past. So many of my friends have asked for help with their dogs that I eventually started training semi-professionally a couple of years ago. I am a hunter and at this point do not compete in the dog games. But, I know what I'm doing and I do it well. My training specialities are introducing concepts in very young pups (9-16 weeks) and re-introduction of gunfire (Gunshy cure, last 5 years I have a 87% success rate). So, I'm willing to accept anyone's "expert" opinion as long as they are willing to allow mine.

Now, I am certain of few things in training, but I do strongly subscribe to some theories. I have a definite opinion on "place orientation" in domestic dogs. So, if someone on the other side of the fence, S&J or someone who agrees with him, will tell me a more precise definition of the phrase, then I may or may not continue to disagree.

[ACooper]

Agreed Whoadog, I think what S & J means by place oriented may not be what the majority of the rest of us mean by place oriented.

[millerms06]

I've been seeing that more and more. A canine is not place oriented we make them that way. If you take a pup and do all the obedience in the same place than that's where it is most obedient if you take that same pup and start his obedience in the yard than move to a city park, a school yard, in the house, in a parking lot than he is obedience trained he has to listen anywhere he is. I've even taken them to a field with birds in it because you never know what might arise when hunting

If you take a pup and do all the obedience in the same place than that's where it is most obedient

I understand completely but someone else brought up place boards not me. I just made a general statement that canines are not place orianted. I can't read their minds but I can get across what I want from them. Personally don't push what I do on anybody I have my way you have George's way all is good

Not sure I follow you, if they are not place oriented why do you need to train in multiple locations?

Place orientation is the basis of whether or not someone, or a dog in this case, can fully understand its interactions and objectives with cues, objects, and or various environments. The first quote is seemingly describing negative outcome and it is expressed somewhat confusing and impartial. The second quote, extracted by Whoadog, quoted which statement is impartial. Correct me if I am wrong, but if S&J finished the quote to read, "If you take a pup and do all the obedience in the same place, and you do not consistently provide the same level of understanding in the next surrounding environment, then it appears to be obedient in one place" would you agree with one another?

What I am trying to say is based on the psychological and a behavioral health understanding you are all correct in some strange way. A dog does not know what we want for it to do unless we train it to understand what it is we feel is important to display, create, or comply. What we observe as the "natural ability" in a dog is a great example. We let the dog know those attributes by letting it continuously create them and at the same time, acknowledge them by not saying anything at all or providing praise at given moment afterwards. Maybe it is the hippie gene I got from my parents that wants to understand everyone's usage of a term and try to produce something positive from it all, and believe me I am trying my best.

With using the term association though, that sounds funny to me. In order for something to learn by association, the student learns from the teacher because the teacher is displaying the correct behavior and the student understands parts of the process. Association to me is applied when a dog learns backing.

[4dabirds]

My understanding of this is that dogs learn by association. A dog will associate a cue in its environment as it relates to the dogs desire for reward as well as the dogs understanding of what is safe or dangerous. An example of how a dog learns through association is when you get your gun out of the safe the dog knows it is time to hunt. It associates the gun with hunting and the gun is the cue that tells the dog what is going to happen next. The cue can be anything for the dog such as opening the closet door for dog food tells the dog its time to eat. There is no reason to ever tell the dog these things they already know . They know because this is their language. They do not speak english they speak cues. When a dog is snake proofed they associate the snake with the correction, The snake is dangerous is what the dog learns from the exercise. The cue is the scent and sight of the snake. The association is a bad one. Correcting a dog on a bird when it has had no training is a sure way to make a dog blink. The association is the bird is dangerous. The cues are how a dog survives. They are masters at reading a humans body language because it is how they get reward and how they avoid danger. It is how they have evolved alongside man. Dogs are place oriented is just another way of saying that the place they learn something is a cue along with all the other cues they are constantly watching us for, to figure out how to get reward . When you change the place the dog has a hard time generalizing the behavior you want Because you removed one of the cues. This place orienting can also include the place where the trainer is standing as well as the hand signals given or other body language changes when initially training a behavior. Train puppy to sit then move locations or the hand you cue with and see the pup not comply as well as it had been doing in the original location. The verbal command is only understood as it relates to the surrounding environment and given cues that are consistent. The most important thing a trainer can do is be consistent. Dogs thrive in an environment that is consistent. When changing cues go slowly and deliberate and understand that the dog is not necessarily balking at the command. This is how I would define these terms as they relate to canine behavior. Understanding these beliefs allows me to get my dog to exhibit behaviors I expect without considering the dog in a role as alpha or omega. Its just a dog with a brain the size of a lemon nothing more. Getting them to behave as we wish is not all that complicated when you consider these tenets.

[RoostersMom]

My dog is place oriented in the field. In the house, he thinks EVERYBODY'S couch is like the one at home. No problem jumping up there and settling down - even in a new place.

grin

[4dabirds]

My dog is place oriented in the field. In the house, he thinks EVERYBODY'S couch is like the one at home. No problem jumping up there and settling down - even in a new place.

grin

Well its obvious our dogs agree

[roaniecowpony]

Perhaps a different way to look at "place orientation" is to say that a place can become a que?

[roaniecowpony]

Call it what you may, but my lab will absolutely not get on any furniture or the beds in our house . During one Hickox class years ago, George told us to train our dogs to do something new with a clicker that evening and come to class the next day and describe it. I taught my lab to get on the bed in the motel room and then to jump from bed to bed on the verbal command "over". The next time I went to a motel room with my wife and the lab, the lab jumped up on the bed. My wife gave me the evil eye and asked what I'd been training the dog to do. To this day, the lab respects not getting on the furniture in the house but always wants on the beds in motels/hotels. (I haven't got her to tell the difference between a motel and hotel...so maybe they aren't totally "place oriented" )

[S&J gsp]

Sorry guys I'm not drinking the Hickox cool-aid you condition the dog to do an action in one place and it dose it. Call it what ever you want it is an assocation thing. I'm not saying that praise and correction don't need to happen in the place and at the time of infraction but it is for memory. Dogs don't use logic to think they use association.

[Chukar12]

I don't think anyone is a good enough cellsman to cell you I will notify Hickox Smith, et al....I

[4dabirds]

Sorry guys I'm not drinking the Hickox cool-aid you condition the dog to do an action in one place and it dose it. Call it what ever you want it is an assocation thing. I'm not saying that praise and correction don't need to happen in the place and at the time of infraction but it is for memory. Dogs don't use logic to think they use association.

Your almost there. To learn by association is not logic. To associate a place with the other cues is not logic either. It is the big picture. Forget about Hickox , Read the book Culture clash by jean Donaldson. You can google it as a pdf free. Not selling cool-aid or anything else.

[S&J gsp]

I would suggest Tom Rose dog training with the touch. The clicker training that Hickox thinks is a break through has been around since the mid 90's

[Winchey]

"I train several different places to let them know no matter what I'm in charge" (SJ)

That is half the definition. You do this, or proof it, or whatever you want to call it because dog's are place oriented. They don't put 2 and 2 together. Just because they were taught to act a certain way in location A, doesn't mean they think they have to act that way in location B. Until you teach them they do. Eventually it becomes generalized. I call that place oriented, you can call it whatever you want.

I don't think the recognizing a particular piece of cover comment to be the same. It is just memory. Run a dog in the same woodcock cover enough and it is just like watching a repeat show. They hit the WC under the apple tree, then go straight to the one always in the middle of the small alder run etc... Throw an equally good dog in that cover that hasn't been there before and the dog that knows it well is going to out bird it.

"I'm not saying that praise and correction don't need to happen in the place and at the time of infraction but it is for memory." (SJ)

Once a dog knows a command and knows it well and it has been generalized, timing of correction or reward become less and less important.

[roaniecowpony]

I would suggest Tom Rose dog training with the touch. The clicker training that Hickox thinks is a break through has been around since the mid 90's

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll look into it. As for clicker training, I recall it earlier than that with the horses. But it doesn't matter. All that matters is achieving the desired results.

[millerms06]

My understanding of this is that dogs learn by association. A dog will associate a cue in its environment as it relates to the dogs desire for reward as well as the dogs understanding of what is safe or dangerous. An example of how a dog learns through association is when you get your gun out of the safe the dog knows it is time to hunt. It associates the gun with hunting and the gun is the cue that tells the dog what is going to happen next.

Doesn't the stimulus with hunting start with the bird? Just teasing but I think I gotcha!

Its just a dog with a brain the size of a lemon nothing more.

If you believe that, then what do you think of the following:

http://cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/tutorial/Behavior/

Honestly I see EVERY trainer recognizing and perfecting these fundamentals in some way or another. We all agree some do it well, mediocre, and well...you get the idea.

[northern cajun]

I would suggest Tom Rose dog training with the touch. The clicker training that Hickox thinks is a break through has been around since the mid 90's

Keller Breland was the first dog trainer to use a clicker - a tin cricket to, as he said, "bridge the time between the behavior and the delivery of the reinforcer." He used the sound to mark the desired behavior when training field dogs and herding dogs work in a field away from the handler. Breland called the click sound a "bridging stimulus."

It's possible that Breland's training approach using operant conditioning with a conditioned reinforcer might have spread beyond his own business were it not for World War II, which solidified the military model in pet dog training. Enter William Koehler, who, like Most was a military dog trainer. A Hollywood dog trainer, his book the Koehler Method of Dog Training was, and may still remain, the all-time best selling dog training book, forming the basis for virtually all dog training from the 1950's into the '70's.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I would suggest Tom Rose dog training with the touch. The clicker training that Hickox thinks is a break through has been around since the mid 90's

Keller Breland was the first dog trainer to use a clicker - a tin cricket to, as he said, "bridge the time between the behavior and the delivery of the reinforcer." He used the sound to mark the desired behavior when training field dogs and herding dogs work in a field away from the handler. Breland called the click sound a "bridging stimulus."

It's possible that Breland's training approach using operant conditioning with a conditioned reinforcer might have spread beyond his own business were it not for World War II, which solidified the military model in pet dog training. Enter William Koehler, who, like Most was a military dog trainer. A Hollywood dog trainer, his book the Koehler Method of Dog Training was, and may still remain, the all-time best selling dog training book, forming the basis for virtually all dog training from the 1950's into the '70's.

Excellent post. Karen Pryor and Gary Wilkes, also deserve recognition for their contributions to the expansion and understanding of clicker training for dogs.

Hickox does also deserve some notariety for his efforts to educate people with the benefits of clicker training for gun dogs.
Nate