home training vs pro training

[ibbowhunting]

This question comes up because a friend of mine just got a new GSP pup on average how much time does a dog have to spend at a trainer to become a broke bird dog for a foot hunting, meat hunter,this just don't happen in a month,right? do most trainers give the owner things to work on after they leave or do you just get the keys to your new hunting machine? i just have a hard time thinking that a hands off appoach by a owner is going to help, reach the goals in mind. maybe i'm wrong but thats why i'm asking this goofy question. fyi i myself i'm trying to train my own dog (1st pointing dog) with the help from GDF and as much info i can get my hands on, that as much as i know about training.

[kninebirddog]

Depends on what makes the hunter happy..I have seen some people very happy with their dog which I consider having extremely poor field manners.
As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder

As for Pro versus Personal again it is all what the person desires to hunt behind

[Rustyoar]

I agree with the above post, I made the descision to do it myself , bought the launchers and the loft and the e collar. There is so much info on here and on the web unless your a total push over train your own dog. It's fun bonds you and the dog better than any trainer can do. I paid for hour sessions last summer and wish I would have saved my money. Time is on my side now train when I want get what I want out of my dog and I get all the credit. If the pedigree is there the training will be fun IMO.

[Rustyoar]

Oh and I'm still $$$$$$$ ahead trainers have their place and thank goodness for them just not that type guy, to each his own.

[benelli]

We're pretty new to this stuff, so keep that in mind with what I have to say ...

Recently at a NAVHDA training day I watched a guy in another field working with his dog. He was letting his dog catch every single pigeon he put out there ... I think he was doing that intentionally, even encouraging the dog to do that, which seemed pretty bizarre. Later on I was chatting with the guy and he was telling me about how his dog has been working with a trainer, and he tried to show me how responsive his dog was to the e-collar ... the answer is, not very. He gave the "here" command probably a dozen times and didn't really seem to understand how to use the collar to help communicate with the dog.

I think the difficulty in this situation is that the guy is paying a trainer to work with the dog, but he has no idea himself what the finished product is supposed to look like, or what steps the trainer is taking to get there, so he has no idea that everything he does with his dog is unraveling the work the trainer is putting in.

[campgsp]

You will never have a broke dog in a months time. And if the trainer you are seeking says so. My advice is run!

When you pick your dog up from a trainer the dog is not ready to be hunted and handled by you right away. First you need to learn what the trainer has been using command wise. Is the dog whistle broke? What tones are for what command? Is the dog silent trained? What are the gestures? So on and so on. The best thing to do if you send dog to trainer is work with him. Get out a couple times a month, see how he's approaching the dog in training. If that's not possible, take notes, work with the trainer the day your picking up the dog, learn every que and command the trainer is giving. But like I said I agree with you that the owner should be involved in some of the training. Bit to each his own.
After that it's basically time to start over. Not entirely but you need to show the dog your in command now. Yard work first, and then field work for a week or two between the two is usually all that needed to cross over the dog. I might add that when you bring the dog home a week of adjustment to New settings is always a good idea.
If you work with the trainer, or get the guidelines down on commands and so fourth sending the dog to a good trainer or you training the dog to broke level isn't going to make a difference.

Sending a dog to trainer can take a lot of time, stress, and frustration off your back to get the dog to the broke level. But you never, or should I say, Your odds are slim that you'll get "the keys and drive" when you pick the dog up. If the dog was trained properly, and you do everything right when you get him back. he'll transition over to you just fine.

[Tika V]

Ok, I'm new I'll bite...im seeking pro training at this point because I feel I've taken my pup as far I can. I have never owned a Vizsla or any type of gundog before. I did all the intro training with her and even hunted pheasants with her this season. We obtained her FDJ (that would be like your JH) and its been a blast getting her to this point. I've defiantly made some mistakes along the way being so green but we did alright I think. Now im hoping the pro trainer can shape her up a bit and possibly take her to a level I know my inexperience would not be able to achieve.

[roaniecowpony]

As a completely new owner, I chose a partially trained 10 month old lab for my first dog. The dog had obedience, quartering, force fetch, gun broke, and could find birds with extreme enthusiasm. Basically it was about ready to upland hunt.
I didisome advanced training with the lab but it was more learning for me than the dog. We've had 6-7 good seasons of hunting togerther that have been rewarding.

2 yrs ago the lab ruptured her CCL. I made up my mind then that I wanted another dog. I had already taken two Hickox classes and had become an exclusively upland hunter of western birds. So I was thinking some kind of pointer was going to be my choice.

I was 54 yrs old, no experience training a pointer, living in the suburbs of Los Angeles, with no training grounds within 30-40 miles. My wife and I are both aerospace professionals with great salaries and no kids. I mentally WAGd how many hunting days my body might have in it and how many dogs that might be. My decision was easy, buy as finished a dog as I could find. If one or more of those factors was different I might have a different decision.
When I started looking for a dog, I went to the web first. That got me inadvertently in contact with Sonny Piekarz of Hay Creek Kennels. He didn't have dog for me but helped me with leads for over a month, calling me directly. What a great guy.

In the end I bought a Hickox dog. I couldn't be more pleased. If I acquire another dog while I'm still working, it'll be a finished dog. Not until I'm retired and living where I can train will I go with training a dog myself. It just doesn't make sense for me and my situation to try to train at this stage of my life.

[S&J gsp]

To answer your first question most trainers have a 90 day gun dog program. OK in my opinion I would get a good program and follow it start to finish hunt the pup this coming season than if Force Fetch was needed add it later. Now you said pup what are we talking a 8-10 week old or 6-10 month old make a lot of
difference in a pup the is 2-3 months old you have at least 6 months before most trainers would take it, a pup that is 8-10 months old would be able to go now

[whoadog]

u will never have a broke dog in a months time. And if the trainer you are seeking says so. My advice is run!

+1
It's a little late in this case, but quite often a buyer is money ahead to purchase a dog that is already trained to the desired level. All the cost associated with raising and training a dog to be productive is already paid and if the seller is in a cash flow bind he or she might even sell the dog at a loss.

[ezzy333]

I really think 90% of the hunting dog that are sold go to people who think the training is part of the fun of having a bird dog and even though many try to convince you that training a bird dog is right up there with brain surgery, it isn't that hard or complicated. Give the pup an opportunity, have the patience to give it time to learn, and be consistent in how you teach and what you expect and your pup will more than likely turn out great within a couple of years. If you can wait that long then buy a trained dog because it takes that long whether you do the training or you send them to a trainer. Most dogs pretty much train themselves if you follow this advice.

Enjoy the experience,
Ezzy

[roaniecowpony]

... quite often a buyer is money ahead to purchase a dog that is already trained to the desired level. All the cost associated with raising and training a dog to be productive is already paid ...

I totally agree. Vet bills, food bills, training equipment, gas running around and time, all add up to a substantial amount of money during a couple years to finish a dog.

I really think 90% of the hunting dog that are sold go to people who think the training is part of the fun of having a bird dog ...
Ezzy

Possibly true. Probably a decision equally driven by available money as driven by fun. I know money was a big consideration in my case. But for me, when I weighed the time, Initial cost of the pup from a top quality bloodline, cost of a couple years of raising a pup, training travel (for my situation), and likely quality of the outcome, vs. a top trainer's dog. When all that was considered, the training part was cheap.

But I agree, money can't be the only reason people train. It must be very rewarding to have trained a well performing dog from a pup.

[RoostersMom]

I'm a "tweener". I like to train my own dogs and did FF on all of my own. I did most of the breaking on mine as well. But when it came time to fixing a problem (gun shy with a shelter Chessie and creeping with my Vizsla) I did go to a trainer. I think the tweener thing can work out but after assisting with a 4-day clinic and attending one of Jonesy's clinics as well - I'm a firm believer in that type of training. You work your own dog and you get lots of one on one with the trainer. You can learn A LOT observing other peoples' mistakes (you can't see your own or you'd be perfect already) and getting coaching on your skills as well.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

This question comes up because a friend of mine just got a new GSP pup on average how much time does a dog have to spend at a trainer to become a broke bird dog for a foot hunting, meat hunter,this just don't happen in a month,right? do most trainers give the owner things to work on after they leave or do you just get the keys to your new hunting machine? i just have a hard time thinking that a hands off appoach by a owner is going to help, reach the goals in mind. maybe i'm wrong but thats why i'm asking this goofy question. fyi i myself i'm trying to train my own dog (1st pointing dog) with the help from GDF and as much info i can get my hands on, that as much as i know about training.

I think your question is well pointed, not goofy. And, I think you may already know the right answer.

At first glance it looks like your friend should have bought a finished dog. However, hind sight is 20/20. The best suggestion I can give you is to sign up for the George Hickox seminar in Plainview, MN - June 20-23. You and your friend should both attend, and split the expenses. If you do this you can both learn the same comprehensive training program, and help each other in the training of these two dogs. You won't regret it, and it will cost your friend far less money than sending his dog to a pro trainer. The proximity is close and the timing is right. www.georgehickox.com

Good luck,
Nate

[ibbowhunting]

This question comes up because a friend of mine just got a new GSP pup on average how much time does a dog have to spend at a trainer to become a broke bird dog for a foot hunting, meat hunter,this just don't happen in a month,right? do most trainers give the owner things to work on after they leave or do you just get the keys to your new hunting machine? i just have a hard time thinking that a hands off appoach by a owner is going to help, reach the goals in mind. maybe i'm wrong but thats why i'm asking this goofy question. fyi i myself i'm trying to train my own dog (1st pointing dog) with the help from GDF and as much info i can get my hands on, that as much as i know about training.

I think your question is well pointed, not goofy. And, I think you may already know the right answer.

At first glance it looks like your friend should have bought a finished dog. However, hind sight is 20/20. The best suggestion I can give you is to sign up for the George Hickox seminar in Plainview, MN - June 20-23. You and your friend should both attend, and split the expenses. If you do this you can both learn the same comprehensive training program, and help each other in the training of these two dogs. You won't regret it, and it will cost your friend far less money than sending his dog to a pro trainer. The proximity is close and the timing is right. http://www.georgehickox.com

Good luck,

+1 This is why the question came up i told him that i sign up for a couple seminars (i was thinking he could go too)i guess he thinks that his money is better spent at the trainer then on seminars, i think he should do both,jmo

[RayGubernat]

This question comes up because a friend of mine just got a new GSP pup on average how much time does a dog have to spend at a trainer to become a broke bird dog for a foot hunting, meat hunter,this just don't happen in a month,right? do most trainers give the owner things to work on after they leave or do you just get the keys to your new hunting machine? i just have a hard time thinking that a hands off appoach by a owner is going to help, reach the goals in mind. maybe i'm wrong but thats why i'm asking this goofy question. fyi i myself i'm trying to train my own dog (1st pointing dog) with the help from GDF and as much info i can get my hands on, that as much as i know about training.

I think your question is well pointed, not goofy. And, I think you may already know the right answer.

At first glance it looks like your friend should have bought a finished dog. However, hind sight is 20/20. The best suggestion I can give you is to sign up for the George Hickox seminar in Plainview, MN - June 20-23. You and your friend should both attend, and split the expenses. If you do this you can both learn the same comprehensive training program, and help each other in the training of these two dogs. You won't regret it, and it will cost your friend far less money than sending his dog to a pro trainer. The proximity is close and the timing is right. http://www.georgehickox.com

Good luck,

+1 This is why the question came up i told him that i sign up for a couple seminars (i was thinking he could go too)i guess he thinks that his money is better spent at the trainer then on seminars, i think he should do both,jmo

I am not a pro trainer but I do know a few to talk to. Each of them has said to me at one time or another that training the dogs was the easy part. It was training the owners that was the real challenge. Dogs listen...people often refuse to because they don't want to hear what they are being told. Spending the money to get a gun dog trained and not knowing how to work with the dog is a HUGE waste of money and time, becasue that lack of knowledge on the hunter's part will almost surely cause the dog to become at least partially untrained...sometimes fairly quickly.

YES a seminar is a great idea for a novice bird dog owner. So is spending several Saturdays with the pro that is training your dog. Both willsave a lot of wear and tear on the dog.

The folks who don't think they need training on how to train a bird dog and keep it trained...are very often the very ones that need it the most. Tell your friend to put his ego in his hip pocket and go learn something that he can use for the rest of his life with bird dogs.

I did not know how much I did not know about training a bird dog until an experienced amateur trialer took me training with him several times and told me flat out: "Shut up, keep your hands in your pockets or behind your back, watch, listen and learn." I am still watching and listening and still learning.

RayG

[roaniecowpony]

... It was training the owners that was the real challenge. Dogs listen...people often refuse to because they don't want to hear what they are being told. ... RayG

Not enough consistent repetitions

But really. People also learn by consistent repetitions, in addition to other ways. But consistent repetitions locks learning into humans similarly as it does dogs. That's why I and other people keep going back to seminars over and over. Maybe my wife was right...I am a dog.

[Neil]

If the owner does not care about style and the ability to find wild birds when they are scarce, say for only shooting preserves, I can train most in a month or two. He most likely will backslide, as the owner is prone to not reinforcing the leasons.

With my own dogs, the lessons go on for their life, it never ends.

[ACooper]

I train as much as possible when work allows but have also used pro trainers when I didn't have time or needed assistance.

IMO it is a good idea to have a relationship with a trusted pro, it is good to have someone to bounce ideas off and ask advice regardless of how experienced or inexperienced you are.