correcting hunting season problems

[magspa]

Well i had a feeling this was going to happen. 18month old GSP's first year hunting bobs in south TX. Came across different opinions on shooting bumped birds, and being a hunter i went with the one that meant shooting birds. I am not interested in field trials and other things like that at this point. Just want a good hunting dog. Since the end of the season (feb 23rd) ive been dunning them but havent had any training birds until this weekend. Planted a pigeon, she was sprinted around full tilt and came to a skidding stop when she came cross wind which was awesome. But then creeped, creeped and then creeped. Do i have a serious problem on my hands or just need to work her some? i do have a launcher that im thinking of only using rether than planted so i can launch the second she thinks about creeping.

[slistoe]

If you correct it now and then go back to shooting bumped birds for her you will have wasted your time training.
If you don't correct it now you better continue to shoot bumped birds because that may be the only opportunities you have.

[RoostersMom]

^^What he said.^^

You knew you shouldn't shoot bumped birds but you chose to do it anyway - it will be harder now to stop you dog from jumping in to try to catch birds. Hunter or field trialer or weekend hunt test guy - it's all the same as far as having a good dog to hunt behind. Taking shortcuts will make it harder for the dog to understand what you want. You let the dog run in and flush (to catch) birds all season - that's what he thinks the game is. An automatic launcher would help quite a bit.

[SetterNut]

Well, lesson learned.
The launcher, a check cord, and some time, should fix it.

[hill]

i do have a launcher that im thinking of only using rether than planted so i can launch the second she thinks about creeping.

That should do it. I'd get to work on it ASAP.

[magspa]

Yes i knew the consequences before doing it. From reading some theories of experienced gundoggers saying it is ok the first year to shoot bumped birds. So i assumed it must be correctable, and maybe even have some benefits if they are recommended it. We'll see, ill keep yal posted. thanks for any advice and/or prior experience with this.

[roaniecowpony]

I had a similar problem where my pointer was steady to wing and shot, but I let my Lab hunt at the same time as the pointer. The end result was that the Lab learned that a point meant a bird and she started busting the points which led to the pointer breaking on the flush. I stopped running the lab with the pointer as soon as it happened, but the damage was done. The pointer was breaking on the flush for a short time until I took her to the hunt club with planted birds and put her on a whoa board at each point and had a checkcord on her. She was trained with a whoa board and knew it was a safe zone. When she stepped off the board when the shooter flushed the bird, I used a notification and correction on the e-collar and limited her chase with the cord. 2 or 3 corrections and she was steady, 6-8 of those and she was allowed to point from the ground again. So far, she's been steady. But I think continuing to reinforce it by running this drill will be needed. I plan to do that during the off season with pigeons and launchers.

[topher40]

Ok there is a difference between bumped birds for the entire season and shooting a few for a young dog. Shooting a few at the correct times for a young dog can be of great benefit. On the other hand when you take the whole season and lose all discipline in yourself and your pup then that is what creates the original question. Dont feel bad, that isnt what I am trying to do, but this happens EVERY year about this time. Its a common mistake.

Yes i knew the consequences before doing it. From reading some theories of experienced gundoggers saying it is ok the first year to shoot bumped birds. So i assumed it must be correctable, and maybe even have some benefits if they are recommended it. We'll see, ill keep yal posted. thanks for any advice and/or prior experience with this.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Planted a pigeon, she was sprinted around full tilt and came to a skidding stop when she came cross wind which was awesome. But then creeped, creeped and then creeped. Do i have a serious problem on my hands or just need to work her some? i do have a launcher that im thinking of only using rether than planted so i can launch the second she thinks about creeping.

The problem with letting your pointing dog root out birds is pretty obvious. She has essentially become a flushing dog that flash points, and yes this can already be a pretty serious problem. But it can be fixed over time. I hope you have a pigeon house or know someone with homers.

Now that she knows how to trap birds or root them out, you'll need to try to extinguish the behavior without applying too much pressure. The best way to begin this without creating an apprehensive dog, is to praise her for pointing and let her see a bird flush as a reward. I think you're on the right track with the launcher idea. Just be sure to use a scent bird seperate from the launcher. Plant your scent bird (lock wing pigeon) at least 10 yards from the launcher (loaded with a flyer), and bring your dog perpendicular to the scent bird. Don't let her smell the bird in the launcher. When she points the scent bird, immediately trigger the launcher. Run her on a check cord, and praise her when she does it right. 2 - 3 launchers would be preferable to one, so you can easily repeat the drill a time or two. Don't give her any e-collar stimulation for this drill. Your simply showing her what you want. You should eventually be able to take a step in front of the dog before launching the bird. Be sure to generalize this drill in different areas.

I hope this helps,

Nate

[Neil]

Of course you can correct it, it will be no harder than if you had clamped down as a youngster. The difference is the dog has learned to find wild birds, your end goal, I hope. A staunch, steady dog is of no value if they can't find birds.

I have trained a couple hundred dogs that way, including my field trial winners.

You are doing good.

Neil

[slistoe]

Thanks for adding that Neil. Excellent point that I should have made on my original post.

Truth be told I would shoot bumped birds over my dogs in their first season if they would ever bump one within gun range.

[will-kelly]

You do not have a serious problem. There I said it. Additionally you may not have caused the creeping problem by shooting over her.

You do have a problem and I had the same exact problem. The dog was not bumping birds because I shot. The dog was bumping birds because I wouldn't shut up. Whoa...Whoa...Whoa...Easy...Whoa.

How many birds did you shoot over her? 10, 20, 50. 100? Your dog is birdy and still doesn't understand the natural instinct to point. I am going on record...You cannot teach a pointer to point any sooner than you can teach a Jack Russell(I hate those dogs) to point. Pointing is breeding and instinctual. The dog will make mistakes and you will make mistakes.

All a launcher does is let you control the learning which is exactly what you need to do. The dog may be confused about it's role in the hunt but it's natural instinct is to hunt and point.

Getting back to my problem...I just shut my mouth. It was hard at first but that is all I did. One of the top trainers in the country responded to my email I sent where I thought I had ruined my dog. He pointed out that the more she crept the more vocal I probably had become. He asked had I used a "Wing on a String" I told him yes. 3 or 4 times. He had never scene my dog and never spoken to me before. He said that is where the problem starts 95% of the time. It is then reinforced by the shooting of a busted bird.

His advice...step back, be quiet and don't shoot the bird unless she holds solid and lets you in front. 4 birds later and she seemed cured of the busting of the bird and has stopped chasing without any training. She has begun to realize that a missed bird isn't worth trying for and there has to be another one around here somewhere.

Your dog is an 18 month old pup. You hadn't had her on birds in a few months. You can fix this problem by challenging the dog's natural instinct. I will put money on it.

100 years ago the dog trainers trained and bred dogs so they could eat. I am sure a couple of them shot busted birds because the cupboard was bare.

[JIM K]

Well, lesson learned.
The launcher, a check cord, and some time, should fix it.

some dogs like SM do not do well with checkcord.
they will flag.
so i would not use checkcord .
if dog moves, launch the bird....

[JIM K]

You do not have a serious problem. There I said it. Additionally you may not have caused the creeping problem by shooting over her.

You do have a problem and I had the same exact problem. The dog was not bumping birds because I shot. The dog was bumping birds because I wouldn't shut up. Whoa...Whoa...Whoa...Easy...Whoa.

How many birds did you shoot over her? 10, 20, 50. 100? Your dog is birdy and still doesn't understand the natural instinct to point. I am going on record...You cannot teach a pointer to point any sooner than you can teach a Jack Russell(I hate those dogs) to point. Pointing is breeding and instinctual. The dog will make mistakes and you will make mistakes.

All a launcher does is let you control the learning which is exactly what you need to do. The dog may be confused about it's role in the hunt but it's natural instinct is to hunt and point.

Getting back to my problem...I just shut my mouth. It was hard at first but that is all I did. One of the top trainers in the country responded to my email I sent where I thought I had ruined my dog. He pointed out that the more she crept the more vocal I probably had become. He asked had I used a "Wing on a String" I told him yes. 3 or 4 times. He had never scene my dog and never spoken to me before. He said that is where the problem starts 95% of the time. It is then reinforced by the shooting of a busted bird.

His advice...step back, be quiet and don't shoot the bird unless she holds solid and lets you in front. 4 birds later and she seemed cured of the busting of the bird and has stopped chasing without any training. She has begun to realize that a missed bird isn't worth trying for and there has to be another one around here somewhere.

Your dog is an 18 month old pup. You hadn't had her on birds in a few months. You can fix this problem by challenging the dog's natural instinct. I will put money on it.

100 years ago the dog trainers trained and bred dogs so they could eat. I am sure a couple of them shot busted birds because the cupboard was bare.

very good info.shooting a bum,ped bird is no no.

[birddogger]

Of course you can correct it, it will be no harder than if you had clamped down as a youngster. The difference is the dog has learned to find wild birds, your end goal, I hope. A staunch, steady dog is of no value if they can't find birds.

I have trained a couple hundred dogs that way, including my field trial winners.

You are doing good.

Neil

Absolutely correct! I don't shoot many bumped birds but some people are acting like you practically ruined your PUP, which is nonsense. As far as the creeping goes, that is perfectly normal for a dog of that age. If dogs were not inclined to do some of these things, there would be no such thing as training/breaking a bird dog. IMO, you don't have a problem...It is just time to start the breaking process.

Charlie

[magspa]

Will-kelly, probably about 20. and some of them werent neccesarily bumped, they may have been down wind of her and spooked up if she ran near them. Just to clarify, she didnt bump every bird, she had some good steady points. thanks for all the help!

[campgsp]

Well i had a feeling this was going to happen. 18month old GSP's first year hunting bobs in south TX. Came across different opinions on shooting bumped birds, and being a hunter i went with the one that meant shooting birds. I am not interested in field trials and other things like that at this point. Just want a good hunting dog. Since the end of the season (feb 23rd) ive been dunning them but havent had any training birds until this weekend. Planted a pigeon, she was sprinted around full tilt and came to a skidding stop when she came cross wind which was awesome. But then creeped, creeped and then creeped. Do i have a serious problem on my hands or just need to work her some? i do have a launcher that im thinking of only using rether than planted so i can launch the second she thinks about creeping.

It's not a serious problem, and fixable. Just a lot more work then you Shouldn't need to do. This is the reason why I don't believe in the whole "wait a year and hunt the first season before any formal training is done" concept. It only hurts you in the end. Or better yet said making more things to fix later. lesson learned.

The launcher a check cord, patience, and a lot of birds will help you fix this. Just remember the second she takes a step launch the bird. The more reps she sees this the better she will understand she can't move.
Question is the dog woah broke?

[Neil]

I am not advocating no formal training, just that it be a parallel course. Formal training in the yard from the time they are weaned while learning to find birds in the field, with some birds shot, pointed or not. Commands and mild correction given only in the yard. Varies with the dog and when whelped, but sometime between 18 and 24 months the two paths converge.

They will all point, but all need to learn to hunt. I spend more than 80% of my time on conditioning and the hunt, takes very little to get them staunch and steady.

Neil

[magspa]

no she is not whoa broke, I used the Bill West method and Training with Mo book.

[DonF]

I don't hunt dog's their first season. They stay in on pen raised birds or later in the season I take them out a few time's on wild birds but LEAVE THE SHOTGUN HOME! I believe there is only one reason for the second year madness, which you might run into. A young dog was put down to kill birds for that was in an environment you can't control. Pup look's pretty good early on then bump's a few. Handler get's a bit frustrated and shoot's a few bumped birds. Pup learns that you'll shoot the bird if he bump's it. Happen's to a lot of pup's every year. Hunter's like to hunt and they want more birds. So they often make an error in judgment about shooting a bumped bird. What the heck, we can fix it in the off season, right? Probably but if the dog was truly trained to the level you want before actually hunting him the first time, the problem goes away. The best way to fix a problem is not to let it raise it's head in the first place. Wild birds are not there to help the pup learn, they don't care. What the wild bird want's is to escape any way it can.

You've got good advice on using the release trap, I'd do that were I you.

[Maurice]

Your pup learned how to hunt wild birds this season, that is A plus to me.. I shoot some birds for my young dogs and don't care if they help me flush them.. I don't overdo it though and I think you are in good shape now.. You have all spring and summer to teach your dog to be broke.. Do that and when you start next season enforce the rules that you taught during formal training. I would much rather let a dog develop hunting skills and learn where and how to hunt before teaching the dog formal manners

Mo

[ACooper]

so i would not use checkcord .
if dog moves, launch the bird....

Regardless of breed this is how I would work through it. If she doesn't point immediately you pop the bird, if she points and then steps you pop the bird. Etc etc etc.

[will-kelly]

I was going to post that you didn't follow Bill West or Mo's system. You were just using parts of it. However...

Magspa you just heard it from the man himself .

He said you're in good shape and now you have to work on the dog before the next hunting season and reinforce it once you are afield. Nothing like getting advice from a living legend!

[magspa]

thanks for restoring my confidence everybody. Mo, Your book was awesome and it is great getting specific advice from you on here. I will be consistent with the launcher and see what happens from there. She will get the point.