YOUR Opinion...Derby or Not?

[PntrRookie]

My question/situation is this. I have a broke derby that has his AF open and amateur qualifications completed in his first derby season (yes I said broke). If I want to chase club/association DOY/HOY points, I could continue to run him this fall and all of next year as a derby. OR do I pull him off the trial scene and continue to train him and reinforce his broke training and only run him in SD stakes when I am SURE he can handle being broke/backing/strong finish/etc.?

[Winchey]

I would keep running him in derby because it is fun and I have time to fix things and am in no rush. If he can't handle being broke he shouldn't be broke now anyways.

Jmo.

[DonF]

I would quit all derby's. You have him broke very young and nothing to really gain. If you ran him now I'd do broke dog stakes. But he might be a bit to much pup yet. so I'd hold him out awhile and continue to work on the broke part.

[MillerClemsonHD]

I'm never going to run any stake to chase any kind of pts or DOY award. Just not how or why I play the game.

If the derby's in your region are broke like most AF derby's then run him as much as your are comfortable running him. Early spring derby's aren't always as broke as fall derbies so its a decision you have to make based on the other derby dogs. Are you willing to pay an entry fee and scratch out bc you know your bracemate is going to rip birds in front of your dog? Or you want to chase the title and will worry about if you can fix the problem later?

Me I'd probably pick and choose a few spots in the spring, and continue to train and prepare so come fall I could run derby and SD. (I'm assuming a Jan pup that still has the fall derby season to go) You know most every other derby will be broke and will provide you more experience. Again gotta be willing to dump that entry fee if you know the bracemate may set you and your dog back.

If we were talking AKC then that is an entirely different situation and completely different answer. There is little to no comparison in AKC/AF derbies.

[cmc274]

If he is broke, he is broke and that's the standard that has to be maintained at the trial. Regardless if running in derby or broke dog stakes, I would pick him up for the tiniest infraction, regardless if the judges ordered him up. I'd also pick him up of they weren't handling correctly either. Probably be picking them up more than getting them around. Make sure they realize perfection is the requirement and anything else gets them the rope.

PS- derby of the year is like tallest short person, while an accomplishment, who really cares. Those type of awards are typically more about someone's egos and not the dog. My dogs are sure every time they get fed dinner after a trial they were the winner.

[bb560m]

PS- derby of the year is like tallest short person, while an accomplishment, who really cares. Those type of awards are typically more about someone's egos and not the dog. My dogs are sure every time they get fed dinner after a trial they were the winner.

I call it the kiss of death - have fun with that dog in broke dog stakes lol.

[PntrRookie]

As some of you stated, in HB and AA derby stakes they pretty much have to be broke to place. I had an experience this past weekend at a club walking shooting dog trial (derby stake) where he placed first on Saturday with multiple broke finds...a little whobbly, but broke, and third on Sunday with two broke finds. I think on Saturday he put it all together to win. I give the judges credit for my third placement on Sunday because the way he handled and ran only deserved third and the dogs ahead of us, with unbroke finds had better ground application and handled more kindly. You rarely see that but I give them props for placing them as they did. Derbies do not HAVE to be broke and the other elements elevated those pups over mine.

I am leaning toward running him in only large derby stakes i.e. SD CH accompanying derby stakes where polish matters, and taking the training time to work on his manners, ground application and stamina. Maybe I should now go get a puppy to start.

[PntrRookie]

...some dogs broke super early who lost potential...

I pulled this from the other thread to make sure I did not take away from their conversation, but it made me think. REGARDLESS of how they got there (i.e. pressure, natural ability, redshirting, etc.) how do you keep the intensity, drive and the potential for success at a high level on a dog that broke out early? I have seen nice derbies fizzle out before they hit the broke dog stakes.

[bb560m]

...some dogs broke super early who lost potential...

I pulled this from the other thread to make sure I did not take away from their conversation, but it made me think. REGARDLESS of how they got there (i.e. pressure, natural ability, redshirting, etc.) how do you keep the intensity, drive and the potential for success at a high level on a dog that broke out early? I have seen nice derbies fizzle out before they hit the broke dog stakes.

I think it's important to not overwork them. Mine was broke around 18 mos - pretty young for a vizsla. He worked hard through summer camp while he was getting broke, ran him a month myself so I got comfortable and then hit a bunch of trials while he was in peak condition and training 2-3x/week. I have 2 stakes left in the next couple of weeks and will only train 2 or 3x before then as we wind down. More of fun runs vs. he should win. I'll then give him 6-8 weeks of absolutely nothing but sitting on a couch before he's off to summer camp again.

So basically, dogs need time off. Like an Olympic athlete, you want them to peak during competition, but it cannot be maintained forever - they need rest time imo.

[shags]

I pulled this from the other thread to make sure I did not take away from their conversation, but it made me think. REGARDLESS of how they got there (i.e. pressure, natural ability, redshirting, etc.) how do you keep the intensity, drive and the potential for success at a high level on a dog that broke out early? I have seen nice derbies fizzle out before they hit the broke dog stakes.

IME it makes a huge difference if you move forward from a young age as development as opposed to breaking. That is, take advantage of their natural talent and bring out what you like as it's presented, instead of letting them run nuts then working to correct what they've been doing that you don't like. Over the years I've had dogs of all types of temperament, soft and boneheaded, and most were pretty well holding, backing, and STF between a year and 18 months. I have one right now that I sat on for over a year due to other problems, so he's taking longer. Another is a coming 12 year old that was very slow in coming along, and his trainer pushed the breaking part more than developing because of impatience, and the dog is STILL not reliable :roll:

[Neil]

Continue to train with low preasure, working on application, endurance, style, etc. And run him. Good luck on Derby of the Year, I doubt those that say it is not impressive have ever been in contention.

[bb560m]

Continue to train with low preasure, working on application, endurance, style, etc. And run him. Good luck on Derby of the Year, I doubt those that say it is not impressive have ever been in contention.

I could have run mine in 15+ stakes broke as a derby (AKC) and probably could have got to #1 derby - instead I ran him in 2 derby stakes broke, got some points and did gun dogs (before and after the 2 derby runs - actually had him broke for 4 mos before I did the derby so he wouldn't get screwed up by other dogs possibly). I don't want the supreme derby dog, I want the supreme gun dog, and most times the two don't mix.

[Neil]

Continue to train with low preasure, working on application, endurance, style, etc. And run him. Good luck on Derby of the Year, I doubt those that say it is not impressive have ever been in contention.

I could have run mine in 15+ stakes broke as a derby (AKC) and probably could have got to #1 derby - instead I ran him in 2 derby stakes broke, got some points and did gun dogs (before and after the 2 derby runs - actually had him broke for 4 mos before I did the derby so he wouldn't get screwed up by other dogs possibly). I don't want the supreme derby dog, I want the supreme gun dog, and most times the two don't mix.

How is that supreme gun dog thing working out for you?

The only way to prove you could have the number 1 dog is to do it, in Derby, Gun Dog, or All-Age.

Everyone should run their dogs as they wish, not saying you should run Derby, just I don't agree it causes problems.

[bb560m]

How is that supreme gun dog thing working out for you?

The only way to prove you could have the number 1 dog is to do it, in Derby, Gun Dog, or All-Age.

Everyone should run their dogs as they wish, not saying you should run Derby, just I don't agree it causes problems.

I don't need the #1 dog - I want a really good gun dog. And it's working out quite well both in trials and taking him out to hunt real birds. If you don't think running derby causes problems you're wrong. There is no way to agree with that statement, it is factually incorrect.

My dog had his first gun dog major before his 2 derby points. I don't care if my new gsp puppy isn't broke until after 2 (although it seems likely he will be) and never runs in derbies - it will make him a better gun dog.

I'm not saying don't run in derbies - if what you want is a dog that busts birds, needs extra pressure to break or you don't care about steadyness - go ahead. It will make the dog harder to break and in 3 dogs I personally know (15+ derby placements) it is a miracle if they can make it around in a gun dog stake, almost a year after they started the breaking process. My dog knows the rules and has not chased in a trial or on wild birds since he was broke - in training I will sometimes set it up for him to try and grab them which he will still try now and then. You don't get honest dogs by letting them catch birds.

[Neil]

"Factually incorrect"? Whose facts? No it is your opinion, based on your experiences, limited or extensive.

It is not part of my extensive experience. I hear of this Derby problem mostly, if not solely, on walking, single course, drop down bird trials. I never hear of it from the horseback guys.

[bb560m]

"Factually incorrect"? Whose facts? No it is your opinion, based on your experiences, limited or extensive.

It is not part of my extensive experience. I hear of this Derby problem mostly, if not solely, on walking, single course, drop down bird trials. I never hear of it from the horseback guys.

So catching birds in no way hurts them or sets them back from getting broke?

I do horseback and walking trials, won at both. The 3 dogs I know that are pretty screwed for life, 2 are exclusively horseback only.

No point in arguing any more, you believe what you want, I will believe what I want - it's working great for me.

[Sharon]

And that's what matters. Every man has to decide for himself how he will train his dog.
I've always participated in Derby and found success at the Shooting Dog level BUT none of my dogs have ever caught a chukar or pheasant - can't use quail in Ontario. If catching poor flying quail was likely at my trial venues , I would not participate in Derby.

[Chukar12]

There are more successful dogs competing in Championships and national stakes that have run derby stakes happily bumping and chasing than otherwise, and the simple reason for that is that they are usually broke by someone who knows what they are doing. There is a time to stop and the experienced will know when that is, it is however impossible to provide a one size fits all on a Gun Dog Forum. The reason for that is threefold; every dog is different, trainer competency and what type of "catching or chasing" we are engaged in.

A dog that consistently is allowed to catch birds on the ground can be a nightmare. One that points birds and occasionally runs one down is not the same kind of problem. Many people create problems with their first dog or two and then they get help from a real trainer, and the solution provided becomes their gospel. Eventually that stubborness will be as limiting as the original lack of knowledge; that is, if you want to get any better.

To the original question I say this, while I stand by the fact that I do not see irreperable harm in running a derby, my caveats notwithstanding. When I decide a dog is ready to be dead broke: proofed, backing, ff...etc... Then we get broke, no more getting away without the right progression of correction and you ususally cannot do that in a trial. That's a long way of saying....I would forgo any derby recognition if it interfered with the best practice needed for a finished product.

Joe

[Neil]

"Factually incorrect"? Whose facts? No it is your opinion, based on your experiences, limited or extensive.

It is not part of my extensive experience. I hear of this Derby problem mostly, if not solely, on walking, single course, drop down bird trials. I never hear of it from the horseback guys.

So catching birds in no way hurts them or sets them back from getting broke?

e.

Yes. It is exactly what I am saying. I have had derbies catch wild pheasant, quail, and Huns, always on relocation, without ill effects. It is all part of training.

And I fully agree that all dogs are different and would never suggest those that train differently than I are wrong, it is their dog. I do object when they tell others they are absolutely right and I am factually incorrect.

I do not know of a top trainer that worries much about what a dog does before it's 2, as long as it hunts with enthusiasm, is developing a good pattern, and generally shows potential.

[bb560m]

And that's what matters. Every man has to decide for himself how he will train his dog.
I've always participated in Derby and found success at the Shooting Dog level BUT none of my dogs have ever caught a chukar or pheasant - can't use quail in Ontario. If catching poor flying quail was likely at my trial venues , I would not participate in Derby.

I should qualify that I am talking about bad flying quail throwdown trials - about all there is around me. I won't run a non broke dog in them. A dog that learns they can catch them is going to be harder to break than a dog that never catches a bird. If you've never had a dog that never catches a bird it's sort of hard to comment because you wouldn't know. I can say my puppy who hasn't caught a single bird is already starting to stand his pigeons @ 9mos (he still chases after flush a bit, but not very much). His reward is finding a bird, not catching it. I am imagine it won't take much to break him after summer camp.

[Sharon]

And that's what matters. Every man has to decide for himself how he will train his dog.
I've always participated in Derby and found success at the Shooting Dog level BUT none of my dogs have ever caught a chukar or pheasant - can't use quail in Ontario. If catching poor flying quail was likely at my trial venues , I would not participate in Derby.

I should qualify that I am talking about bad flying quail throwdown trials - about all there is around me. I won't run a non broke dog in them. A dog that learns they can catch them is going to be harder to break than a dog that never catches a bird. If you've never had a dog that never catches a bird it's sort of hard to comment because you wouldn't know. I can say my puppy who hasn't caught a single bird is already starting to stand his pigeons @ 9mos (he still chases after flush a bit, but not very much). His reward is finding a bird, not catching it. I am imagine it won't take much to break him after summer camp.

............................................


"I should qualify that I am talking about bad flying quail throwdown trials - about all there is around me." quote bb560m

Now that is sad. As I said , I wouldn't participate in Derby either if that was the case. Surely that problem can be fixed. What State are you in?

[Neil]

Did you all miss or just ignore my statement I have had dogs catch wild birds? I train my dogs to relocate with speed and dermination. When young they have to learn how close they can get without a flush, a slow bird gets caught with no backlash, they soon learn what is too close, and then know to stop to flush if they missjudge.

And none of this helps the OP.

[V-John]

Continue to train with low preasure, working on application, endurance, style, etc. And run him. Good luck on Derby of the Year, I doubt those that say it is not impressive have ever been in contention.

I could have run mine in 15+ stakes broke as a derby (AKC) and probably could have got to #1 derby - instead I ran him in 2 derby stakes broke, got some points and did gun dogs (before and after the 2 derby runs - actually had him broke for 4 mos before I did the derby so he wouldn't get screwed up by other dogs possibly). I don't want the supreme derby dog, I want the supreme gun dog, and most times the two don't mix.

How is that supreme gun dog thing working out for you?

The only way to prove you could have the number 1 dog is to do it, in Derby, Gun Dog, or All-Age.

Everyone should run their dogs as they wish, not saying you should run Derby, just I don't agree it causes problems.

Neil is right. If he wants to chase points why not? Why is it automatically assumed that Derby dogs catch birds? Bbm, I hope you bring that dog out to Grovesprings, next year, now I really want to see him run!

[bb560m]

Neil is right. If he wants to chase points why not? Why is it automatically assumed that Derby dogs catch birds? Bbm, I hope you bring that dog out to Grovesprings, next year, now I really want to see him run!

Not saying don't run your dogs in derby - just if they start catching birds it can/will create long term problems.

Are you going to the NFC (AKC) in Oct - it's near you...

[AZ Brittany Guy]

My question/situation is this. I have a broke derby that has his AF open and amateur qualifications completed in his first derby season (yes I said broke). If I want to chase club/association DOY/HOY points, I could continue to run him this fall and all of next year as a derby. OR do I pull him off the trial scene and continue to train him and reinforce his broke training and only run him in SD stakes when I am SURE he can handle being broke/backing/strong finish/etc.?

Don't burn him out.

[V-John]

Neil is right. If he wants to chase points why not? Why is it automatically assumed that Derby dogs catch birds? Bbm, I hope you bring that dog out to Grovesprings, next year, now I really want to see him run!

Not saying don't run your dogs in derby - just if they start catching birds it can/will create long term problems.

Are you going to the NFC (AKC) in Oct - it's near you...

Possibly. Depends on a lot of things ie work and such.
I would like to go, if nothing else simply to watch

[SCT]

Wouldn't the competition be good for the dog, broke or not? Just the experience of competing is good in and of itself. But, I can see how crappy throw down birds could be detrimental to the dogs training. I like what chukar12 said, when the dog is ready to be broke, get it done and don't back off. I don't think I would want a young (fall) derby broke, but a spring derby probably needs to be there if he/she expects to win an important derby trial.

I've got a pointer pup that's 10 months old now and hope to run him in a few trials this fall with just a bit of stw/stf training. But by January I hope to have him broke, or close to it for the early spring trials. He'll have a ton of wild bird exposure by then and will hopefully be ready for it.