Training Timeline?

[petrey10]

Ok I am 8 weeks away from receiving my PP but I am trying to get all my ducks in a row so we can hit the ground running. Hoping to possibly be able to be somewhat ready for November's pheasant season (not finished but able to take him along hunting so he can see some wild birds and get some field time)

Anybody have a timeline on the things I should be working on? Like 8 to 12 weeks bird intro.... 12-16 weeks gun intro... so on and so forth


Just really want to do this right... getting plans together to build a loft for some pigeons and hold a few quail for training... already got two launchers and looking to buy two more....

[S&J gsp]

All dogs learn at different paces if you put a time line on it your hurting yourself and your pup

[Winchey]

I introduce birds when I get them and start gun breaking as soon as they are fired up about birds. As soon as he is gunbroke I'd take him hunting. I don't see why anyone couldn't accomplish those two things with most any dog by November.

Come would be a good thing for him to know, and maybe whoa, and have reasonable expectations on his performance that season.

Hope that helps.

[4dabirds]

http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... icles.html Start here.

[Doc E]

No such thing as a "timeline".
Flowchart = YES
Timeline = NO



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[AZ Brittany Guy]

No such thing as a "timeline".
Flowchart = YES
Timeline = NO



.

+ 1 Sequence is a better term to use....it takes as long as it takes..

[Deuce]

No such thing as a "timeline".
Flowchart = YES
Timeline = NO

This is an excellent way to describe it.

[KwikIrish]

I can't imagine why you shouldn't have them broke by 6 months.

Honestly, the flowchart is a description I've never heard, but it makes complete sense.

[CDN_Cocker]

Why can't someone just give him a 'sequence' or 'flow chart'. Everyone touts the 'you can't put a timeline on it, every dog is different" but everyone trains commands to their dog in a set order. Why doesn't someone post the order they would do? (If I had more experience I would, but I haven't trained many gun dogs like some of you have). I always get frustrated seeing these robotic responses about how each dog is different. The OP will find that out as he trains - he'll know when he can proceed and when he can't, what he needs to know is what to proceed to.

[S&J gsp]

If he picked a program he should follow it. If not he should pick one and stick to it. Many good programs if I was starting out I'd save money and start with Training With Mo easy to follow and gives good fixes to some problems and has a GOOD Support. Perfection is a good program and is easy to follow and has Good Support. Hunt Smith good program good support. All first rate programs but all go in different orders. One thing that is for sure get him into birds and take your time

[petrey10]

sorry didn't mean to offend some of you... I guess I would be interested to see what order you guys are using. Your FLOWCHARTS so to speak... I currently have George Hickox DVD. I don't know what one is going to be best so thats why I am asking the experts on here. I would prefer DVDs so I can see them done in action... I learn better that way. I will be going and getting involved in a local NAVHDA so I know I will get help there but I like to look prepared and get the PP ready for the October NA test

[4dabirds]

Why would anyone get offended . It is a question that is asked a lot . The answer to which is there is no timeline. Dogs are not in a constant state of being so the training is relative to the progress of the dog. In George's video you are getting the specific sequence of training. What you do not get is the why. For that he has a seminar. If you stick to the video you should be on your way.

[RoostersMom]

sorry didn't mean to offend some of you... I guess I would be interested to see what order you guys are using. Your FLOWCHARTS so to speak... I currently have George Hickox DVD. I don't know what one is going to be best so thats why I am asking the experts on here. I would prefer DVDs so I can see them done in action... I learn better that way. I will be going and getting involved in a local NAVHDA so I know I will get help there but I like to look prepared and get the PP ready for the October NA test

I'm like you on the DVD's. I like the Perfect Start best. Follow that with the Perfect Finish and you've got a really great foundation and a SW&S dog.

[birddogger]

Why can't someone just give him a 'sequence' or 'flow chart'. Everyone touts the 'you can't put a timeline on it, every dog is different" but everyone trains commands to their dog in a set order. Why doesn't someone post the order they would do? (If I had more experience I would, but I haven't trained many gun dogs like some of you have). I always get frustrated seeing these robotic responses about how each dog is different. The OP will find that out as he trains - he'll know when he can proceed and when he can't, what he needs to know is what to proceed to.

Good point.

Charlie

[birddogger]

sorry didn't mean to offend some of you... I guess I would be interested to see what order you guys are using. Your FLOWCHARTS so to speak... I currently have George Hickox DVD. I don't know what one is going to be best so thats why I am asking the experts on here. I would prefer DVDs so I can see them done in action... I learn better that way. I will be going and getting involved in a local NAVHDA so I know I will get help there but I like to look prepared and get the PP ready for the October NA test

You are not offending anybody petrey......You asked a legitimate question for your situation. As far as which training method is the best, that is very subjective and I don't believe anybody can correctly say one is better than the other. Find one that is easy for you to follow and that you are most comfortable with. The one that is best for one person may not be the best or easiest for the other person. I pesonally believe "training with MO" is one of the most effective and simplest methods for the beginner. JMO.

Charlie

[Doc E]

The Flowchart is different for diferent breeds (uses) of our dogs. Pointers/Setters, Rerievers, Pointing Retrievers etc.
I'd be happy to post the Flowchart for Retrievers if anybody wants to see it, just say so.



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[roaniecowpony]

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=42037

My thread to basically the same topic.

You'll see a bunch that say it's unnecessary, some that say it's not possible, and some that say it's a good idea. Clearly, the ones that say it's a good idea are the ones that want to learn how to train and those that are negative about such a tool are confident in their own knowledge and methods. Then there are a few examples of well respected career trainers that have created rudimentary charts to at least explain the basic objectives to a customer. But there is no comprehensive tool (for the human students) from any trainers I'm aware of. I think it's because common training tools of business and technical trades haven't been fully applied to the subject yet. It seems that while the seminar type trainers are great with dogs, they haven't employed expert methods for training people. just my 2 cents.

[Redfishkilla]

3-5 months an beyond, birds gun intro
i teach "here" with treats but don't force compliance as soon as they come home....you start forcing compliance during yard work and they already will know the command,
4 months until he's steady enough to walk 50 yards and in front of him, pigeons in a launcher,
yard work should begin when he's ready (6months for a real birdy bold one later for some others) but the longer you wait the more independent he'll be,
wild bird exposure as much as possible his first season,
and there's a reason people keep saying "select a method" because these are proven ways to train.....

[4dabirds]

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=42037

My thread to basically the same topic.

You'll see a bunch that say it's unnecessary, some that say it's not possible, and some that say it's a good idea. Clearly, the ones that say it's a good idea are the ones that want to learn how to train and those that are negative about such a tool are confident in their own knowledge and methods. Then there are a few examples of well respected career trainers that have created rudimentary charts to at least explain the basic objectives to a customer. But there is no comprehensive tool (for the human students) from any trainers I'm aware of. I think it's because common training tools of business and technical trades haven't been fully applied to the subject yet. It seems that while the seminar type trainers are great with dogs, they haven't employed expert methods for training people. just my 2 cents.

. I I think you are misguided in your view . The reason there is no chart to train a dog is what I stated earlier . The dog is not in a constant state of being. Every action taken in training changes the reaction from the dog. Dog training is not a manual that tells you what part goes where. Training is an interaction between a human and an animal that have very different sensibilities. Proper dog training relies on an understanding of canine behavior and implementing a program based on this knowlege . You can not convey in a flow chart what to do in a situation , when it arises, that may have been caused by a previous interaction. Go to a hickox seminar and see for yourself how George lays out the entire training program on the first day in a power point presentation, then for the next three and a half days puts that presentation to practical use. All the while explaining in detail the behavioral reasons dogs respond in the way they do to good training as well as mistakes that have been made previously. There is no book or video that can replace working first hand with a knowledgable pro let alone a flow chart. The money is a small price to pay to get ahead of the learning curve.

[roaniecowpony]

4dabirds,
I think you underestimate the level of the technology of interactive teaching tools available for computers. And, yes, I've been to George's classes 3 times over the last 5 years. He's still using that old PP presentation. Today's teaching tools can hardly be called simple flowcharts. The new tools can combine a multitude of possible computer media such as video, Q&A, testing, text, checklists, and even books. Modern computer teaching tools can pretty much combine every piece of information created except for having the trainer themselves in there. These tools were developed to teach complex tasks, as is dog training, where a single linear flow path is not likely. What a modern interactive training tool can do is provide a great deal of perspective of the overall process and then jump directly into a specific area of interest, which books, flowcharts and videos don't do well by themselves.

I think we often misquote or take out of context what Hickox teaches. He does say that training a dog a certain thing takes as long as it takes. But, in reviewing my old notebook from his classes, I see that he specifically identifies age periods when certain exposures are best done to maximize the dog. For example, he states an age at which the gun exposure should be done. So, for those things, a timeline is very much relavent to his program. This goes to the old saying "you only get one chance to make a first impression" for many of those optimum age timeline exposures.

I know what you mean when you state it's not a simple flow. I'm attempting to organize his program in a manner that can provide a quick reference and then allow a quick deep dive by hyperlinks to videos and text and possibly other flowcharts for specific training tasks. It's a big job. Bigger when you have to learn how to use the programs first. I think if a top trainer like Hickox put out a product like I'm envisioning, it'd cost a lot for a professional to put together something like this for him and would likely have to be pretty expensive to recoup the costs to make it. I'd certainly like to see something like it from Hickox.

And I agree, working firsthand with a knowledgeable pro that knows how to teach is something that can't be replaced with a book, video, chart, or any other media. But, the media, be it a book or your notes, video, etc. are references that can keep you on the right path or remind you.

[slistoe]

Why can't someone just give him a 'sequence' or 'flow chart'. Everyone touts the 'you can't put a timeline on it, every dog is different" but everyone trains commands to their dog in a set order. Why doesn't someone post the order they would do? (If I had more experience I would, but I haven't trained many gun dogs like some of you have). I always get frustrated seeing these robotic responses about how each dog is different. The OP will find that out as he trains - he'll know when he can proceed and when he can't, what he needs to know is what to proceed to.

Because it doesn't work that way. There is no right/wrong sequencing. For example, should you teach Stop to Flush before steady or after? Do you "dechase" the dog, then hunt him, or hunt him a season and then "dechase"? Is whoa taught at the puppy feed bowl, or in conjunction with heel, or on a table/barrel to a young adolescent just prior to steadiness training, or do you not bother with a stop and stand command at all letting the flushing bird become the command?
What he needs to know is where he is trying to progress to and then try to understand all the pieces that make up the end result. Then teach the pieces. Which is why the recommendation is to get one of the "programs" that are available and then follow it because it will help in how to teach the pieces.

[CDN_Cocker]

Because it doesn't work that way. There is no right/wrong sequencing. For example, should you teach Stop to Flush before steady or after? Do you "dechase" the dog, then hunt him, or hunt him a season and then "dechase"? Is whoa taught at the puppy feed bowl, or in conjunction with heel, or on a table/barrel to a young adolescent just prior to steadiness training, or do you not bother with a stop and stand command at all letting the flushing bird become the command?
What he needs to know is where he is trying to progress to and then try to understand all the pieces that make up the end result. Then teach the pieces. Which is why the recommendation is to get one of the "programs" that are available and then follow it because it will help in how to teach the pieces.

It does work that way. You're right that there is no right or wrong sequence - It may differ from trainer to trainer, but each one has a sequence of what they train. These "programs" are exactly that. They show each lesson. Of course when you teach each is dependent on the dog but my post meant in general its like everyone is afraid to tell anyone else what commands they need to work on and what comes next, like it's a big secret. I see it on every single forum I'm on. No one can just say something like, teach recall, then hup, then retrieving, then steady, etc etc (or whatever commands go along with the breed/type of dog you have). "Pick a program and stick to it" is a common one as well, but it is a good one. At least you have given some guidance. Saying there is no timeline (which is correct) or sequence to follow is rubbish and does not help the poster. Every single person who has trained more than one dog has definitely found what works for them. My current pup is my first gun dog so I have been taking a different approach that fits the breed. Dogs I have owned before (non-hunting dogs) I trained all the same way: recall, heel, sit, down, and stay. I always did it in the same order (granted before this guy I have only trained 3 dogs from start to finish). I agree 100% that you cannot set a timeline. I don't however agree with those who say there is no set sequence because there is, you just need to pick the one that suits you. And I think this sequence is more what the OP was looking for yet everyone echoed about the mysterious "there is no timeline". I'm not trying to start an argument, I just think that sometimes on these online forums people like to tout their opinions instead of just giving the simple straightforward answer that is required.

[slistoe]

So what purpose does it serve the OP if I say I teach whoa at the puppy bowl before everything else, the next guy says that teaching whoa as a part of the obedience training when you are teaching heel and the next fellow says never mind whoa at all? I espouse introducing the gun in the whelping pen, the next fellow says fire it off when they are chasing at 6 mos, the next fellow won't let the dog chase birds so brings the gun in with formal retrieve training while the last guy says forget about it, just take the dog hunting. What has he gained by everyone giving their own preferred sequence?
And as to everyone having a sequence - no they don't. I have an end goal. The sequence can vary dramatically from dog to dog depending on how the dog reacts, how I feel like doing it, etc. My end goal can be dramatically different than someone else and that will change the pieces and thereby the sequence. Just as there is no fixed timeline, there is no fixed sequence - or else we wouldn't have the plethora of "programs" that exist out there.

[CDN_Cocker]

The "purpose" is that it answers his/her question. People are allowed to have varying opinions or methods. Anyways, this is no longer helping the topic. I apologize to the OP for going off track. Good luck with your dog and have fun

[ACooper]

everyone trains commands to their dog in a set order.

I think you assume too much, for me much of the training is overlapping and instead of being some big thought out process many times things are worked on as time allows, either due to work schedule, weather, pup maturity, availability of birds, and countless other things.

I am sure most pro trainers have a little firmer "plan" but there are still multiple variables that can change.

[slistoe]

everyone trains commands to their dog in a set order.

I think you assume too much, for me much of the training is overlapping and instead of being some big thought out process many times things are worked on as time allows, either due to work schedule, weather, pup maturity, availability of birds, and countless other things.

I am sure most pro trainers have a little firmer "plan" but there are still multiple variables that can change.

Good luck ACooper. He's trained 4 dogs so I doubt you will change his mind.

[Doc E]

There is no right/wrong sequencing.

I agree -- There is no value in learning to add and subtract and multiply and divide before learning algebra. :roll:



.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

sorry didn't mean to offend some of you... I guess I would be interested to see what order you guys are using. Your FLOWCHARTS so to speak... I currently have George Hickox DVD. I don't know what one is going to be best so thats why I am asking the experts on here. I would prefer DVDs so I can see them done in action... I learn better that way. I will be going and getting involved in a local NAVHDA so I know I will get help there but I like to look prepared and get the PP ready for the October NA test

The only problem with the DVD's is that many people buy them, watch them, don't fully comprehend or embrace the system and then move on in search of a better way of doing things. They are great when used as a reference and guide to a particular system being used, but when standing alone they tend to lack the hands on substance necessary to be taken to heart.

My best suggestion is that you continue to do your research. Attend one of the NAVHDA meetings to see what system or systems are popular with the members before you get your pup. Also do your best to choose a system that makes sense to you and follow through with it. Training advice taken from any online forum is often worth exactly what you pay for it. Find a competent individual or group to train with that have a common interest or goals in mind, and you'll be much further ahead.

Nate

[slistoe]

There is no right/wrong sequencing.

I agree -- There is no value in learning to add and subtract and multiply and divide before learning algebra. :roll:



.

Not much point to learning algebra if you are an abstract artist.

[S&J gsp]

This post got me thinking how I would approch my next pup so this is how I would

8-16 weeks intro to field
10-18 weeks intro to birds. A few birds by hand than 4 or 5 free flowen into a field let the pup drag a check cord about 10 feet long. Let them bump chase and have fun. By the end of this you should start to see points being held.
16-20 weeks intro to gun once they are chasing I start with a blank gun. Than progress to a 20 guage than to a 12 guage. Once I move to a shotgun I'll shoot a few birds for them.
20-30 weeks I'll start a little obediance here and walking on a loose lead. Nothing formal yet just lite training.
Now hunting season take them and hunt them no big hunting party's just you and one other person let them do what they do. No more than one other person.
After hunting season visit some hunt clubs with good flying birds shoot some more birds for them. Now start formal obedience training here every time, whoa, heel,
Since you have chosen a program I would suggest that you stick to that program that way if any problems arise you can get advise from someone that uses that program

[cjhills]

If this is a also a family pet, it will be necessary to teach some obedience immediately. If not you will just be teaching the pup to disobey.
First week play time and getting acquainted and walks while the puppy is young and wants to stay with you.
1. crate training " kennel" started with treats. Kennel in and out.
2. "here" also with treats
3. some noise conditioning
4. Whoa at the food dish and door
We want a very solid "here" by 3 to 4 months. we will be taking this puppy to the field two times a day most of his life, starting on a check cord and only calling him when he wants to come to start also reinforcing "here"with treats. Done often and long enough you will get a very good conditioned response. It is easiest to teach this when he wants to stay with you and thinks every thing good comes from you.
5. the pup will be messing around with birds most of his life. At the bird pen, catching clipped wing quail and pigeons when it gets a little bigger.
Formal Introduction to guns and birds at this time
6. We will be collar conditioning via the Hickok system at about 5 months depending on when the pup was born. If this is a spring or early summer puppy we would like to take him hunting with a old solid dog in the fall. For safety reasons we want him collar conditioned, at this time he should have a pretty solid whoa, he should come when called and kennel on command in and out. He has learned this with very little pressure. If he needs more prey drive we let him chase. If not we stop that pretty quick.
7. We do conditioned retrieve and reinforce whoa training over winter.
By spring we have a pretty well started dog with very little pressure and anxiety, ready to take to the field and reinforce what he has learned
obedience is by far the most important. the bird work and hunting is pretty much hardwire all you need to do is keep it pointed in the right direction.
This is my flow chart. Sometimes it flows faster and sometimes slower. Sometimes one thing over flows another. Nothing is written in stone but the dog never knows he is being trained. I don't have a timeline. Sometimes a hour training sometimes 5 minutes. I may have skipped a few things. It works for me and my dogs good genetics make it easier. Cj

[CDN_Cocker]

Good luck ACooper. He's trained 4 dogs so I doubt you will change his mind.

Hey now, take it easy :-p

[S&J gsp]

All my training over laps general puppy training starts day one till they leave or die of old age.

Not jumping on people
Waiting to be feed
Waiting to go outside
Crate training
Coming to food
And there name

[petrey10]

thanks guys.... appreciate you giving some idea how you do it

i might look into getting the Perfect Start and finish DVDs...

I currently have Hickox older DVD without the clicker... not sure I am real wild about the idea of another device (collar and then clicker) I need to run while hunting. But I guess I also don't really understand the clicker as I haven't watched the DVD

[cjhills]

The perfection system pretty much requires a helper other than that it is very good.
I think the clicker is used before you go hunting in the Hickox system. Never liked the clicker but some people swear by it. Cj

[Chukar12]

not sure I am real wild about the idea of another device (collar and then clicker) I need to run while hunting

Don't equate a clicker with hunting. I really am over simplifying this, but the clicker is just a manner to do yard work and shape behaviors with positive reenforcement before you expect the behaviors in more advanced training. It is my opinion that the Hickox system is complicated unless you are really committed to digging into it...fascinating stuff and extremely effective, but IMO you have got to want to train the dog as much as you want a trained dog to get the most out of it.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

thanks guys.... appreciate you giving some idea how you do it

i might look into getting the Perfect Start and finish DVDs...

I currently have Hickox older DVD without the clicker... not sure I am real wild about the idea of another device (collar and then clicker) I need to run while hunting. But I guess I also don't really understand the clicker as I haven't watched the DVD

Petrey,

It's difficult to compare the old Hickox DVD with the new. There is a lot of incorrect information floating around in regard to the clicker. Hang in there. I'm in the process of organizing a new thread, Clicker Work for Gun Dogs. It should make an interesting debate, and help shed light on a subject that's long overdue on this forum.

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

Nate,
Good that you're doing that, IMO.

I just received my order from Gary Wilkes (Click-n-Treat) of two targets and his DVDs and book. I haven't watched or read the material yet, but have been to Hickox's classes 3 times. I'm a believer. I watched some 12 week old pups he was using a clicker and targets with at the last class. They were standing on a whoa board within minutes. When I brought a Hickox dog home we used a clicker to train the dog door use, knowing she'd been trained with a clicker. It went so fast it was scary. Not only that, it stuck. One session 2 minutes long, 1 1/2 yrs ago and we've never had to revisit training that since.

I put a whoa board on the ground and the dog jumps on it enthusiastically...waiting for a click and treat. I put one of the Gary Wilkes targets on the floor and the pointer immediately bumps it with her nose and looks to me for the click and treat. I know it's been at least a year and half since she'd seen a whoa board or a target.

[4dabirds]

Wow roanie you really are an engineer

[roaniecowpony]

Wow roanie you really are an engineer

It's an affliction I have to live with every day.