Gun Dog Forum

What are you guy's methods on stws training?

Mostly Dave Walker method with a little variation of my own.

Mo Lindley also has a very effective method.

Doug

Basically that's like asking how do I train a pointing dog. You might be better served asking what is the difference between professional programs such as hickox ,smith , lindley etc.

I use two, depending on the dog.

My preferred method is to take the puppy, on a checkcord into birds that are in remote launchers. I take the dog in downwind and perpendicular to the launcher so that the dog will hunt into the scent cone. I will pop the bird the instant the dog shows that they have picked up the scent. I do the bird work only after extensive yardwork including heel/whoa drills and benchwork. The dog has shown a willingness to stop and stand in the yard and in the field before I start with the launchers.

My second method is "stop to flush" training. Basically the dog is running free but dragging a checkcord. It may or may not be wearing an e-collar. As it is running about, I will launch a pigeon from a remote launcher so that the dog can see it fly. I use pigeons because they will not land back on the ground and the dog therefore cannot catch one. Eventually the yardwork training will kick in and the dog will stop and stand at the sight of the bird flying away.


There are of course variations on each of these themes which may be appropriate for an individual dog and where its head is at, at that particular point in time.

RayG

Perfect Finish DVD - follow that step by step for STW&S and steady to flush and backing.

4dabirds wrote:Basically that's like asking how do I train a pointing dog. You might be better served asking what is the difference between professional programs such as hickox ,smith , lindley etc.

But then again he may want to know what you guys think and do. Don't think either of us know how he would be better served and there sure isn't any evidence that a pro can do something better than an amateur that has some experience.

Ezzy

My method is similar to Ray's stop to flush except I like to start at heel with a clipped wing bird in my pocket. I toss the bird and immediately whoa the dog with the leash. If he stands quietly until the bird hits the ground then I send him and he gets the retrieve. If not, I walk him back to the kennel and then pick up the bird, go get the dog and repeat til he gets it right. Works exceptionally well with any dog that really enjoys the retrieve. My transition is then to birds in launchers and the dog dragging a cord. Once again, I like the clipped wing birds and, just like in the yard, the dog only gets the retrieve if he handles to my satisifaction.

As I get them staunch, they are not allowed to move until released. No movement of any kind. Steady just happens.

ruffbritt4 wrote:What are you guy's methods on stws training?

What breed of dog do you have?

UplandJim,
I have a brittany

I use Dave Walker's method too. Then I let my older, finished dogs show the younger dogs what to do.

In a nutshell:

1) Get a good, solid Whoa on them
2) Make them stand Whoa while you chuck birds in the air
3) Whoa them upwind from a bird in a launcher and make them stand and watch the bird fly away
4) Work them into the scent cone and Whoa them on first scent

Depending on the dog and what your expectations are for him, you can mix in stop-to-flush work by following step 3, but launch the bird then immediately Whoa him instead of Whoaing him then launching the bird. For dogs that like to bolt and don't want to stand, you can also take it a step farther and blast a pistol then immediately Whoa the dog. This makes it so "Whoa" is a Whoa command, a bird in the air is a Whoa command and a gunshot is a Whoa command. The rest is cake.

Stoneface wrote:In a nutshell:

4) Work them into the scent cone and Whoa them on first scent

For dogs that like to bolt and don't want to stand, you can also take it a step farther and blast a pistol then immediately Whoa the dog. This makes it so "Whoa" is a Whoa command, a bird in the air is a Whoa command and a gunshot is a Whoa command. The rest is cake.

I'd advise the OP take all advice with a grain of salt. Some folks that post on training topics aren't qualified. To me, I'd be cautious of anything that involved more than a rope, collar, patience and repetition. Ive heard good things about PS/PF and I am a big fan of the Training with Mo book.

"4) Work them into the scent cone and Whoa them on first scent"

Could you elaborate on this nutshell? I'm curious as to whether this training could contribute to false points/UPs? I'm not saying it does, just wonder if it could.

SCT wrote:"4) Work them into the scent cone and Whoa them on first scent"

Could you elaborate on this nutshell? I'm curious as to whether this training could contribute to false points/UPs? I'm not saying it does, just wonder if it could.

Man I'm with you, pointing birds is between the dog and bird. I dont know chit about it.

I think of it as reverse training. You're teaching the dog to stand birds (by making him stand Whoa while you throw them), then letting him point. Not letting him point, then working on holding point. There's a lot leading up to this, of course. This isn't the dog's first interaction with birds. Leading up to this the dog has had plenty of running on birds, bumping, chasing, developing a natural huting style and inclination to point. Then you teach him when you say Whoa, it means put four feet on the ground and don't move, even if birds are flying. Not just flying, though. I'll Whoa one of the girls and put a quail right between their legs, lock a pigeon's wings and let him walk circles around the dogs. I want that dog realizing that he's not to move a foot when birds are around. Once I start showing them birds on Whoa they're not ran on birds in anything but a totally controlled environment until they're totally steady. Once they realize they're not to move, not even to chase birds, then I work them into a scent cone and they usually freeze, even if just to flash point, but even if they don't I Whoa them and after a moment I'll flush the bird. After just a few times of Whoaing them on first scent they pretty well associate the scent with the command Whoa and stop and hold all fours on the ground through the flush and shot.

I'm not sure what about this would make a dog false point. I've never had an issue with it, anyhow. That fourth is pretty much in step with what Delmar teaches in his book. I just do some prep work before then to make the transition to stopping on first scent easier and less stressful. If you've read the book, Delmar would have the helper hold the collar in one arm and wrap the other arm around the dog's flank to keep him from moving. I do the same thing with the Whoa command.

Does that make more sense?

Stone Face;
If it work for you go for it. I do basically the same thing and it is how the Perfection system works.
Some people just like to argue. It's not rocket science. CJ

I do kinda what Ray does but i start my pups at 8-10wks old i help them stand there suck up the sents calm them, style them up i dont talk to them but stroke there back and then pop the trap. After a short while they stop on there own and stand flushes all day long with . The stop to flush just becomes part of the same drill. Its nothing better than seeing 3-4 month old pup run a field sticking points and standing flushes. It really makes people stratch there heads and say dam

I do kinda what Ray does but i start my pups at 8-10wks old i help them stand there suck up the sents calm them, style them up i dont talk to them but stroke there back and then pop the trap. After a short while they stop on there own and stand flushes all day long with . I call this helping them learn whats right with no preasure other than the bird. The stop to flush just becomes part of the same drill. Its nothing better than seeing 3-4 month old pup run a field sticking points and standing flushes. It really makes people stratch there heads and say dam

Stoneface wrote:I think of it as reverse training. You're teaching the dog to stand birds (by making him stand Whoa while you throw them), then letting him point. Not letting him point, then working on holding point. There's a lot leading up to this, of course. This isn't the dog's first interaction with birds. Leading up to this the dog has had plenty of running on birds, bumping, chasing, developing a natural huting style and inclination to point. Then you teach him when you say Whoa, it means put four feet on the ground and don't move, even if birds are flying. Not just flying, though. I'll Whoa one of the girls and put a quail right between their legs, lock a pigeon's wings and let him walk circles around the dogs. I want that dog realizing that he's not to move a foot when birds are around. Once I start showing them birds on Whoa they're not ran on birds in anything but a totally controlled environment until they're totally steady. Once they realize they're not to move, not even to chase birds, then I work them into a scent cone and they usually freeze, even if just to flash point, but even if they don't I Whoa them and after a moment I'll flush the bird. After just a few times of Whoaing them on first scent they pretty well associate the scent with the command Whoa and stop and hold all fours on the ground through the flush and shot.

I'm not sure what about this would make a dog false point. I've never had an issue with it, anyhow. That fourth is pretty much in step with what Delmar teaches in his book. I just do some prep work before then to make the transition to stopping on first scent easier and less stressful. If you've read the book, Delmar would have the helper hold the collar in one arm and wrap the other arm around the dog's flank to keep him from moving. I do the same thing with the Whoa command.

Does that make more sense?

How do you Whoa a dog that is out of sight? Sounds like the perfect way to get one broke when you are standing there, but aint gonna be broke over the hill bc no one told it to whoa.

I saw a dog run big 10-20yd circles around a bird when it hit scent waiting for the handler to tell it whoa. Took a while to get that one to figure out how to point birds on its own without help.

RuffBritt, follow the program of the pro that you like best. Better yet you would find a pro in your area you like that will be able to help you when you need it. I spend more time watching other dogs get worked than I spend working mine. Much more to learn watching a pro, asking questions and learning how to read dogs. Its all about timing and repetition not gimmicks.

Miller, the entire process is done completely under control. All the Whoa work, throwing the birds, popping them from launchers, Whoaing in the scent cone is done either in a confined area or at the end of a check cord and once you start throwing birds for the dog you take him off running any kind of birds in the field until he's standing on first scent and watching the birds fly away religiously. Once he's to that point you can start letting him drag the check and pointing birds with some yardage between the two of you. When he's doing well at this point is when you can start to trust him holding point out of site. Still yet, though, there are dogs out there that know when you can't see them and will not hold tight while you're out of site. I've even had my brother sit in a tree with the transmitter and radio where he can see the planted bird while I purposely handle them onto a bird where I can't see.

Years ago I had a nice Britt that got trial wise, in training he was 100% staunch and steady, in a trial he was only staunch when in sight. If he knew I could see him, he was totally broke and won some, but he ran so big he went birdless too many times.

So Jim Heckert. Brian Sullivan, and a couple others set up a fake field trial at York Pointer and Setter grounds, Jim climbed up a tree with birds under while I rode the other way singing to him. Sure enough he took the birds out, jim jumped down and tuned him up.

We thought we had him fixed. But later in a trial after he went on point, first he looked over his shoulder, then started scanning the trees. I got to him before he figured out Jim wasn't up there and we won the trial.

Too smart for me.

Good story Neil.

I've had a few pointing dogs that seem to be too darn smart for their own good.

Nate