Training Problems

[RichK]

I'm working on training my 13 week old GSP basic obedience but it isn't going too well. The "here" command he will listen to a majority of the time in the house, once he gets outside though it usually becomes ineffective. He loves to retrieve bumpers in the yard, however on the return he runs past me and to the side of me. Any advice for correcting these behaviors? Also, what is the appropriate way to teach "sit."

[bb560m]

I'm working on training my 13 week old GSP basic obedience but it isn't going too well. The "here" command he will listen to a majority of the time in the house, once he gets outside though it usually becomes ineffective. He loves to retrieve bumpers in the yard, however on the return he runs past me and to the side of me. Any advice for correcting these behaviors? Also, what is the appropriate way to teach "sit."

Don't teach sit (a lot will sit later on when they feel pressure), get the Perfect Start and follow that method. 13 weeks I wouldn't be teaching anything but it's name and kennel. Encourage the dog to hold on to whatever you're throwing by only petting it when it has something in it's mouth. Don't take anything or you'll have retrieve problems. Around 16-20 weeks I think would be a good time to start teaching here, first on check cord then reinforce on e-collar. If you're giving a command you cannot enforce because the dog is free to do what it pleases there is no point of giving the command.

[4dabirds]

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure on the dog there is no down side.

[bb560m]

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure in the dog there is no down side.

There is no way my hard headed GSP puppy would listen to a clicker - it's hard enough to get him to listen to his name, but with some electricity he wisens up.

[whoadog]

Recall enforcement outsided = Check Cord. Why do you let him ignore you outside? Put a check cord on him and when he refuses, check him! It sounds like this may be your first dog. If it is, get a book asap(there are a lot of good ones out there) and put it into practice before you go any further and create more problems for yourself and your dog.

[RoostersMom]

Try a checkcord. Never give a command you can't enforce. Dog shouldn't be off the checkcord if you're wanting to work on "here" at the time. Get the Perfect Start - it's a good all around DVD.

[4dabirds]

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure in the dog there is no down side.

There is no way my hard headed GSP puppy would listen to a clicker - it's hard enough to get him to listen to his name, but with some electricity he wisens up.

He not responding for the click he is responding for the food . Skip three meals and see how attentive and compliant the dog is.

[Doc E]

Rich K

What training program are you following ?


.

[bb560m]

He not responding for the click he is responding for the food . Skip three meals and see how attentive and compliant the dog is.

So - starve him to get him to listen and give treats? I'm not going to be slipping him treats while he is on a bird or clicking anything to reward him. I stick with the methods taught in Perfect Start & Finish and works fine. Whatever floats your boat, just think that stuff is complicating things.

[Brazos]

GSP's are hard headed. I have had a couple, still have one that turned 13 in March. Gps's are very, very smart. That dog knows exactly what you are saying, he just doesn't give a #%!£ what you want. You just have to get it's attention. I am not big on e-collars but I only had to hit the button once on each of my GSP's and I swear they could they could have written a college thesis. Again I am not big on e-collers so make sure the time is right but you will be amazed at what a nice, polite, well mannered little GSP you have with one push of a button. It was a great feeling after I hit that button an knew that my dogs understood me after second guessing myself and giving the dogs a pass. I did have one English Pointer and an e-coller was not the way to go for that dog. An EP, at least the one I had, was much more compliant and less tolerant to discipline. Didn't really need disciplined because it never got in trouble. Point is every dog/breed is different but my GSP experience, though limited to two dogs, says shock them a time or two (doesn't take much, just enough to let them know when you say something you mean it!). Good luck. German Shorthairs are true sweet hearts and stunning to look at. Good news is the older they get the better they get. My 13+ year old GSP is my best friend. When I really hollar at her she will obey 1/2 the time! At 13 though she doesn't cause trouble, but she still has her nose to the ground as soon as she clears the back door. She has hunted hard from the day she was born and will die with her boots on. Not sure how much longer she has but the frogs, snakes, lizards, and squirrels in my yard will have a party when she is gone.

[Brazos]

I just re-read your post. 13 weeks is young. For sone reason I was thinking over a year old. Don't stick an e-collar on a dog that young. Good luck. You will have your hands full for the next few years.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I'm working on training my 13 week old GSP basic obedience but it isn't going too well. The "here" command he will listen to a majority of the time in the house, once he gets outside though it usually becomes ineffective. He loves to retrieve bumpers in the yard, however on the return he runs past me and to the side of me. Any advice for correcting these behaviors? Also, what is the appropriate way to teach "sit."

Concerning teaching "here" and shaping other behaviors, I second the idea of doing clicker work. Check out George Hickox - Great Beginnings for Pointing Dogs.

You should hold off teaching sit, at least for now.

If you want to work on retrieving outdoors; build a retieving corridor. Drive 6 t-posts into the ground forming a rectangle 6' x 20'. Tie a roll of plastic construction/snow fence to the posts, forming a corridor. Toss your bumpers and lock wing pigeons down the corridor, and the dog will be unable run past you when he returns. No need for a check cord here. Also don't be too hasty in taking bumpers or birds away from him.

Nate

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure in the dog there is no down side.

There is no way my hard headed GSP puppy would listen to a clicker - it's hard enough to get him to listen to his name, but with some electricity he wisens up.

I'd be willing to bet good money that your "hard headed GSP" would respond much more enthusiastically to click and treat than he would to electricity.

Nate

[bb560m]

I'd be willing to bet good money that your "hard headed GSP" would respond much more enthusiastically to click and treat than he would to electricity.

Nate

Maybe yes, maybe no, but he needs to understand the ecollar - I'm, not going to be giving him treats training in the field and the ecollar works great. I'm not frying him, I'm using the lowest level possible to get him to do what I want after he understands the command on a check cord.

[roaniecowpony]

At 13 weeks you might consider Hickox's Great Beginnings DVD. I think at that age it was no pressure no commands just targets and clicker.

[SubMariner]

I'm working on training my 13 week old GSP basic obedience but it isn't going too well. The "here" command he will listen to a majority of the time in the house, once he gets outside though it usually becomes ineffective. He loves to retrieve bumpers in the yard, however on the return he runs past me and to the side of me. Any advice for correcting these behaviors? Also, what is the appropriate way to teach "sit."

Our GSPs started general "household" obedience almost immediately, but we didn't begin formal obedience until they were about 6 months old. They are simply too young prior to 6 months. At that point we went into obedience classes with them to help the dogs "learn to learn" with a myriad of distractions like other dogs, noises, etc. As with any training (field or obedience) the key is consistency as well as multiple teaching/training sessions a week.

INSIDE is very different from OUTSIDE. Any obedience goes by the wayside once you get them outdoors as there are simply too many distractions for a young dog to handle.

The idea that you shouldn't teach sit to a field dog is a myth. NEITHER of my dogs sits at inappropriate times in the field. (The six yr old is an AFC/MH and a CDX in obedience and on his way to UD; the two year old is working on his CD in obedience and just placed 2nd in his first Open gundog event in March.)

In a nutshell, you are on the right track, but you need to slow down to let you & the puppy grow into the process.

FWIW,

[Winchey]

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure in the dog there is no down side.

There is no way my hard headed GSP puppy would listen to a clicker - it's hard enough to get him to listen to his name, but with some electricity he wisens up.

Could be the most ignorant post of the year. Congrats.

[Neil]

+ 1 on both the myth on teaching sit and treats.

Some dogs do sit to avoid pressure, but I have never seen a connection to it being trained.

I can tell you for a fact the current National Champion was trained with treats, doubt he was trained to sit, but I have seen him do it to get petted.

[birddogger]

+ 1 on both the myth on teaching sit and treats.

Some dogs do sit to avoid pressure, but I have never seen a connection to it being trained.

I can tell you for a fact the current National Champion was trained with treats, doubt he was trained to sit, but I have seen him do it to get petted.

Teaching sit is fine if you want but IMO, it should be taught in a proper sequence instead of one of the first things taught. Also, I agree that training with treats is OK if that is your thing. FWIW.

Charlie

[Doc E]

Rich K

What training program are you following ?

I ask again the above



.

[S&J gsp]

Find a program that works for you and stick to it. At 13 weeks I believe that I would just take him to a short grass field and let him run. A well known trainer said that YOU CAN ALWAYS PUT A STEERING WHEEL AND BREAKS ON BUT IT IS ALOT HARDER TO ADD A GAS PEDAL. Let the pup gain confidence and independence then start formal obedience a bold confident pup will take training easier. That is just my opinion

[AZ Brittany Guy]

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure on the dog there is no down side.

How does the clicker induce pleasure?

[AZ Brittany Guy]

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure on the dog there is no down side.

I think you failed to mention the use of food rewards along with the clicker. Now it makes sense to me.

[Winchey]

The click of the clicker has no inherant value until it is associated with something good to come, a treat, a bird, a head pat, a fun bumper, a game if tug etc...

If you will, it is the same as the noise of a gunshot meaning bird to a dog that is gunbroke properly.

The treat or reward after a click becomes less important as time goes on, just as it is not as important for the seasoned dog to see or get a bird after a gunshot. It has been ingrained something good is coming and the randomness of a reward after a clicker mark or a gunshot mark is a good thing in the later stages.

[Chukar12]

I ask again the above

The guy has a grand total of 57 posts beginning in January that kicks off with him asking about getting his first gun dog. What makes you think every person who is new is following a program? Further, what makes you believe your question is important enough to repeat in bold? Would an open ended question rather than a closed ended one be less offensive?

you know...

"are you following a specific program?" v. "I ask again, what training program are you following?

Maybe the individual is getting they answer they care to use elsewhere.

Rich K. , the point is that it is easier to direct someone on how to address an issue with a common point of reference. I would assume with shooting competitively, you would start with whether the gun was fitted, etc.. Dog training on the internet has varying degrees of sophistication, and a handful of documented training programs to draw from. Most of which are successful if used consistently in spite of their perceived differences and the steadfast belief by some that the one they were introduced to is the best. If you are using a program and you can identify it, it is much easier to get help...

FWIW,
Joe

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I ask again the above

The guy has a grand total of 57 posts beginning in January that kicks off with him asking about getting his first gun dog. What makes you think every person who is new is following a program? Further, what makes you believe your question is important enough to repeat in bold? Would an open ended question rather than a closed ended one be less offensive?

you know...

"are you following a specific program?" v. "I ask again, what training program are you following?

Maybe the individual is getting they answer they care to use elsewhere.

Rich K. , the point is that it is easier to direct someone on how to address an issue with a common point of reference. I would assume with shooting competitively, you would start with whether the gun was fitted, etc.. Dog training on the internet has varying degrees of sophistication, and a handful of documented training programs to draw from. Most of which are successful if used consistently in spite of their perceived differences and the steadfast belief by some that the one they were introduced to is the best. If you are using a program and you can identify it, it is much easier to get help...

FWIW,
Joe

You make too much sense Chuckar12. You might make people feel uncomfortable.

[roaniecowpony]

AZ BG,
When you start the introduction of the clicker, you begin with what Hickox termed "base loading". You simply click and then treat the dog over and over many times. The idea is that the dog associates the click with the treat. That's all is being accomplished at that phase. No association with behavior or compliance is intended to be associated at that time. Just click and treat.

When you're confident the dog associates the click with the treat, you can begin associating the click with a behavior. If the dog doesn't associate the behavior to the click and to the treat within a handful of repetitions, it needs more base loading. The "behavior" can be either a no-pressure behavior like using the stick with ball targets to lead a pup to do something like simply touch his nose to it or to lead him onto a whoa board, etc., or it can be complying with a command. The beauty of using click-n-treat methods is that there doesn't need to be pressure from you, only their own internal pressure to cause you click and treat them. For example, my pointer will jump on a whoa board enthusiastically as soon as it hits the ground. This is because she was click-n-treat trained since a very young pup and one of the early clicker training tasks was to get on the board and stand. She wants that treat when she sees the whoa board.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

AZ BG,
When you start the introduction of the clicker, you begin with what Hickox termed "base loading". You simply click and then treat the dog over and over many times. The idea is that the dog associates the click with the treat. That's all is being accomplished at that phase. No association with behavior or compliance is intended to be associated at that time. Just click and treat.

When you're confident the dog associates the click with the treat, you can begin associating the click with a behavior. If the dog doesn't associate the behavior to the click and to the treat within a handful of repetitions, it needs more base loading. The "behavior" can be either a no-pressure behavior like using the stick with ball targets to lead a pup to do something like simply touch his nose to it or to lead him onto a whoa board, etc., or it can be complying with a command. The beauty of using click-n-treat methods is that there doesn't need to be pressure from you, only their own internal pressure to cause you click and treat them. For example, my pointer will jump on a whoa board enthusiastically as soon as it hits the ground. This is because she was click-n-treat trained since a very young pup and one of the early clicker training tasks was to get on the board and stand. She wants that treat when she sees the whoa board.

Although I am not a Hickox disciple I have dog friends that are, and they are very good trainers. One told me he could train any dog with a "clicker and 10 pounds of hot dogs". The original post discussed the clicker but not the reward. I have nothing but respect for Hickox and his system.

[roaniecowpony]

Hickox admits to "stealing" the clicker from others. I think he teamed up with Gary Wilkes of Click-n-Treat to intergrate it into his program, from what I've read. I remember reading about using clickers on horses many years ago in some trainer's program.

[Neil]

They have been clicker training dogs since at least WW II. I just snap my fingers, but it is the same thing to the dog.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Hickox admits to "stealing" the clicker from others. I think he teamed up with Gary Wilkes of Click-n-Treat to intergrate it into his program, from what I've read. I remember reading about using clickers on horses many years ago in some trainer's program.

Years ago I remember reading a book, "don't shoot the dog" and as I recall early on the clicker was used to training dolphins and Orkas. I forget the author of the book but back then I don't believe Hickox was using that method at the time.

[Winchey]

I don't know when it was popularized but positive reinforcement it is widely credited with Pavlov's experiments in the 1920's. All a click is, is a marker to tell the animal that it did the right thing and that a reward is coming because it isn't always possible to shove a hot dog in a dogs mouth the split second it does the right thing, and we all know timing is important, whether with reward or correction, the click, finger snap, "yes" simply bridged the gap between doing the correct behaviour and reward for doing it.

I don't know why so many fail to grasp the concept, it is pretty simple. Maybe it is just because it is widely reffered to as clicker training, maybe it should be called positive reinforcement with a clicker.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I don't know when it was popularized but positive reinforcement it is widely credited with Pavlov's experiments in the 1920's. All a click is, is a marker to tell the animal that it did the right thing and that a reward is coming because it isn't always possible to shove a hot dog in a dogs mouth the split second it does the right thing, and we all know timing is important, whether with reward or correction, the click, finger snap, "yes" simply bridged the gap between doing the correct behaviour and reward for doing it.

I don't know why so many fail to grasp the concept, it is pretty simple. Maybe it is just because it is widely reffered to as clicker training, maybe it should be called positive reinforcement with a clicker.

Good post.

Clicker training was popularized in the 90s by Karen Pryor and Gary Wilkes. I believe it was Barbara Woodhouse who authored "Don't Shoot the Dog."

Nate

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Good post and a good thread. Informative.

[4dabirds]

He not responding for the click he is responding for the food . Skip three meals and see how attentive and compliant the dog is.

So - starve him to get him to listen and give treats? I'm not going to be slipping him treats while he is on a bird or clicking anything to reward him. I stick with the methods taught in Perfect Start & Finish and works fine. Whatever floats your boat, just think that stuff is complicating things.

Not trying to get you to change your method just clearing up some mis understandings. The point is not how much force you put on a dog to get it to comply wether it is hunger or a check cord. It is about the motivation of the dog to comply. All dog training relies on the dog being motivated to be involved with the program. If the dog has no skin in the game how would you expect to get the behaviors you want ? This skin in the game may well be its avoidance of an e-collar or choke chain, but it can also be instilled in the dog as reward. Do you think the dog will be more motivated for avoidance or for reward? This is not to say that dogs do not need some form of correction but at a stage in the dogs training when you are teaching behaviors to the dog for the first time the reward system keeps the dogs interest. A dog that is clicker trained comes into the session knowing that when it performs it is going to get reward. Do you think a dog that associates the training session with reward will approach learning new behaviors with trepidation. I know if I put a spike collar on a dog the dog will not associate it with any thing good. It may comply but at a future date when the spike collar is not on the dog it will have lost its motivation to comply. So overlay the e-collar to get compliance and the dog will cary the baggage of the original training with correction used to instill the behavior in the dog. This takes style from the dog. Clicker training maintains the natural style of the dog even after the collar has been overlaid because the dog associates the original training of the behavior as rewarding to the dog. The random reward of clicker training keeps the dogs motivation always there. The more random the reward the more the dog is motivated to exhibit a behavior that it has experienced as being rewarding.


Clicker training was popularized in the 90s by Karen Pryor and Gary Wilkes. I believe it was Barbara Woodhouse who authored "Don't Shoot the Dog."

Nate[/quote] Karen prior Dont shoot the dog. Barbara Woodhouse was no bad dogs. Hickox told me he learned clicker training directly from Gary Wilkes. Another great book is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. You can get it as a pdf for free online. She quotes Karen prior a bit in her book.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Karen prior Dont shoot the dog. Barbara Woodhouse was no bad dogs. Hickox told me he learned clicker training directly from Gary Wilkes. Another great book is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. You can get it as a pdf for free online. She quotes Karen prior a bit in her book.

Oops my bad. I spoke with Gary once. Wish I could make it to one of his seminars. He did two with Hickox a few years ago. I actually learned more about the clicker from Carol Brown (she heads up George's puppy program in Montana) than I ever did from George. She was at a seminar a few years ago, and what she did with pups was amazing.

Nate

[Winchey]

I have seen enough dogs trained in tradional methods to know that a competent trainer can take almost nothing out of a dog using traditional methods. However, I prefer to teach things by rewarding when they do it right rather than punishing when they do it wrong or by removing pressure when they do it right. Then I am comfortable using positive punishment and negative reinforcement when they know what they are supposed to do. Just seems fair to me. That and I find it quicker and easier to teach with PR.

[mountaindogs]

Treats are just a form of motivation. You will not NEED them all the time later. If you do you used them as luring and the dog learned the treat as the "cue" instead on the word or hand signal. This is poor training... I speak from experience tho. Very few adult bird dogs care 1 iota about a treat when there are birds in front of them. The birds, the field time, the retrieve all become the motivators later INSTEAD of treats but a 13 week old puppy is too young to handle those high level motivators. They require the foundations that you need to be laying now. Obedience and understanding. At this age, if your puppy is not coming back on here then you are simply less exciting than the rest of the stuff puppy wants to explore. Change that. BE the MOST exciting thing when you call. For a 13 week old puppy food is pretty exciting! And not much else will win out again for there short term thinking. That is why treats work well for puppies. And they establish a pattern of responding. A pattern of coming back when called that sticks like glue. You may have to reinforce later if you choose but your older dog will have a long history of success for to recall.
I love clicker training. Its foundation training. A tool like a checkcord or a launcher or a barrel or training table. You use them to teach ideas but you don't take them along hunting with you usually. Once you have seen how fast puppies learn concepts with clicker training (better named reward marker training as you do not have to use a clicker) its pretty convincing. But we live in a world full of choices.

Before I started clicker training... A breeder/ trainer friend showed me how she called her puppies in at feeding time from the time they started walking and eating solid food. By the time they were 7 weeks old they came very reliably to that same call. It transfered to the whistle call back easily (sounds almost the same) and still to this day my 8 year old will come to that whistle call. He IS collar trained and DID have it applied for not returning when called occasionally as an adult, but he certainly had a good start from that association and it stuck. The concept is the same. A LONG PATTERN OF SUCCESS makes things work more smoothly. I still even now reinforce with e-collars eventually. Not sure why everyone jumps to the conclusion that they are somehow mutally exclusive. They do different things.

[gonehuntin']

I'm in total agreement with Doc, you need a program. A program gives you the proper sequence. It eliminates mistakes and problems. It allows you to see into the future and how you'll get there. All responsible dog owners should follow a responsible program; Smith, Hickox, NAVHDDA, SOMEONE.

That way you don't have to undo problems created by proceeding in the wrong order.

As for the clicker, the words "good dog" will do just as well. The clicker works when the dog wants it to. At some time, EVERY dog is trained using force.

[Doc E]

With Treat Operant Conditioning, I fail to see the reason for a clicker.



.

[Doc E]

The guy has a grand total of 57 posts beginning in January that kicks off with him asking about getting his first gun dog. What makes you think every person who is new is following a program? Further, what makes you believe your question is important enough to repeat in bold?
FWIW,
Joe

When someone fails to answer that very easy question, it makes me go "Hmmmmmm".



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[Neil]

With Treat Operant Conditioning, I fail to see the reason for a clicker.



.

Doc,

I think it has been answered, but it is timing. As you know dogs operate in the now, they are not deep thinkers, and have problems understanding cause and effect. The clicker, or in my case finger snap, is immediate and blends into the reward as you are digging the treat out of your pocket.

[roaniecowpony]

There's been some good discussion on this thread, even with the disagreements. If I take anything away from this thread, it's that positive reinforcement will allow more dogs to make it thru a program to become successful than if correction (punishment) is the only feedback to the dog. Clicker use is just one way. But it has a great attribute in that it can be used to mark the behavior in a timely fashion. Hickox carries some of his old method baggage with him that shows when he says "Attaboy!" to a pup that does the task well.

[Doc E]

Doc,
The clicker, or in my case finger snap, is immediate and blends into the reward as you are digging the treat out of your pocket.

Digging a clicker out of your pocket is quicker than digging a treat out of your pocket ?
IMO, whichever you use should have already been dug out of your pocket.

It comes down to the "7-Ps"
Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Performance


.

[Winchey]

You don't really use a clicker on the fly Doc. You use it during short training periods to teach something new or to tune up already known. I normally use the word "Yes!" as my marker, but when I am working on something new, run into a wall, or am trying to get something precise I will go get my clicker sometimes and use that as the marker. It is a more precise and consistent sound than voice and I have found it to speed things along. And no, if you were using it you are probably trying to click and reward a behaviour as many times as possible in a short period, so it is going to be in your hand. If the dog is across the room yes it is much easier to click the button than rush across the room and put a treat in the dogs mouth, unless you are faster than sound. If it is stuffed down your pocket, than ya, it is about as effective as digging it out 10 seconds after the desired behaviour and clicking when the dog is on to licking its butt. About as effective as it would be fumbling in your pocket for an e-collar remote and correcting for something 10 seconds after he did it and is conceivably now sitting quietly when you shock him.

[Doc E]

If the dog is across the room yes it is much easier to click the button than rush across the room and put a treat in the dogs mouth, unless you are faster than sound.

I'm just like Superman --- Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound

Thanks for the explanation though


.

[birddogger]

I'm in total agreement with Doc, you need a program. A program gives you the proper sequence. It eliminates mistakes and problems. It allows you to see into the future and how you'll get there. All responsible dog owners should follow a responsible program; Smith, Hickox, NAVHDDA, SOMEONE.

That way you don't have to undo problems created by proceeding in the wrong order.

As for the clicker, the words "good dog" will do just as well. The clicker works when the dog wants it to. At some time, EVERY dog is trained using force.

I also agree with everything stated here, including the comment about using force!! Positive training/reinforcement is good but there needs to be a balance. Relying soley on the positive, to me, is like the "new age" philosophy on raising kids and I believe it is self evident how that is working.

Charlie

[Winchey]

Who said anything about solely relying on it? Not to mention the dog is 13 weeks old, how much force do you really want to use lol.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Who said anything about solely relying on it? Not to mention the dog is 13 weeks old, how much force do you really want to use lol.

Good post.

I hope that further discussion on the clicker will be directed to the new pertinent post. Not that it doesn't pertain here, but the new thread I started should help clarify some of the clicker misconceptions.

Nate

[birddogger]

Who said anything about solely relying on it? Not to mention the dog is 13 weeks old, how much force do you really want to use lol.

It was a general statement and I want to use the amount of force necessary.

Charlie