Gun Dog Forum

What are you guys doing to get a dog calm around game? I am working with a 2 (yr) that gets happy feet, rears back, and is everything but calm around game. I have him so he is not going off chasing but needs to calm the frig down.

Can you stop and stand the dog in the field where he has found birds before ? They need to be able to do that in the field in situations where they think they have a chance to find birds. That is why I do no yard training but only train in the field.. With some dogs they will learn to stand still real fast. With others it will be more of a challenge to get them to stand and remain calm. The type dog you describe if I am reading your post right can really be a challenge. When you get the dogs feet still you will probably notice the tail is elevated and real happy, you will also notice a dog like this swinging its head looking around.. Feet are still but his little brain is still running at mach 1. You just keep showing them till they submit to what you are teaching them.. Some folks use a bench or barrel, I prefer the ground. The dogs mind is not calm until everything is still imo

Mo

Delmar Smith says, "A dog must learn to stand still before he can learn anything else", You can do it in the field as Mo suggests or with the Buddy Stick and the barrel. Whatever, if they are jumping around they are not learning.

Distance and time reduce temptation. You can try being further from the game and /or waiting longer to get calm. Sometimes can help.

I am making an assumption the dog is reacting this way on scent? What if you revert to stop to flush work upwind on birds the dog cannot smell? You eliminate one of the heightened senses and may be able to change the " habit?"

As was mentioned, this is what barrel training is for as well as the whoa board and buddy stick.

There are things you can do to help instill that "need" to be still.

Chief among these is to make the dog stop and stand...whenever.

My dogs are kennel dogs and every single time I go to the kennel, they get a refresher course in stopping and standing I put my hand up as I approach the kennel and then when the dog feet are still, I slowly open the door, again cautioning the dog to stand....

When the dog has stood for a time and settled, I reach in and pat it on the flank to release. I currently have a dog that similar to what you are describing. I will make her stand in the kenel door until her tail stops going. I will walk inside and stroke her up to further settle the dog and then, when the dog is still, the pat on the flank s a release so she can go tearing around the back yard with the rest of her kennel mates.

The stop and stand drill adds a few minutes to my kennel visits, but I believe it is time well spent. If the dog is a house dog, aking it wait at the door works just the same.

RayG

Neil wrote:Delmar Smith says, "A dog must learn to stand still before he can learn anything else", You can do it in the field as Mo suggests or with the Buddy Stick and the barrel. Whatever, if they are jumping around they are not learning.

I'd like to see this dog on the chain gang. In the paraphrased words of Delmar and Rick Smith, "If a dog won't be still on the chain, don't expect it to respond any differently in the field."

Nate

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:

Neil wrote:Delmar Smith says, "A dog must learn to stand still before he can learn anything else", You can do it in the field as Mo suggests or with the Buddy Stick and the barrel. Whatever, if they are jumping around they are not learning.

I'd like to see this dog on the chain gang. In the paraphrased words of Delmar and Rick Smith, "If a dog won't be still on the chain, don't expect it to respond any differently in the field."

Nate

I agree, the chain gang is where it starts for my dogs and all the other drills follow. I won't take a dog off the chain gang when I approach until they are standing still.

[quote="AZ Brittany Guy

I agree, the chain gang is where it starts for my dogs and all the other drills follow. I won't take a dog off the chain gang when I approach until they are standing still.[/quote]

Previous to the Rick Smith seminar I attended last year, I used the chain gang primarily for camping and as a place to keep dogs out of the way while training. I never fully understood the full benefits and potential of it.

Now I put everyone's dog on the chain the the moment they arrive to train. The dog must be still before being put on a lead or checkcord, and must remain still until given a cue to do otherwise. ( Dogs that refuse to be still, and bark, whine or dig, get to experience the figure 8. Which is another great tool.) Only the dog(s) being worked are allowed off the chain, and when their turn is complete they immediately go back to the chain. The utter chaos of dogs running around and out of control is eliminated, and multiple training sessions can be successfully done with fluidity. The dogs quickly learn that good behavior reaps rewards, and the owner/handlers have a much better structure based on consistency as a result.

Nate

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:

Neil wrote:Delmar Smith says, "A dog must learn to stand still before he can learn anything else", You can do it in the field as Mo suggests or with the Buddy Stick and the barrel. Whatever, if they are jumping around they are not learning.

I'd like to see this dog on the chain gang. In the paraphrased words of Delmar and Rick Smith, "If a dog won't be still on the chain, don't expect it to respond any differently in the field."

Nate

I forgot to mention the chain gang, thanks. Since I use it so often, I just failed to include it.

As an aside the chain gang is also great time saver. Since dogs learn in short increments, repeated often, it is just so much easier to grab them off the chain. I also believe they learn just watching the other dogs being trained. And plus the benefits you stated.

The dog will stop and stand to voice hand and whistle. When on a woah " anywhere " after standing a while he reverts to sitting and left long enough lies down, this is after quite sometime. I set him in the middle of all the action at clinics and he won't go anywhere with or without me in sight. His happy feet comes around birds he is anticipating the birds flush. He gets happy feet during feeding time which I have tried to curb by making him stand or sit and watch the other dogs eat but he can't contain himself and gets wound up after any length of time. I have tried progressing as he stood still longer each session but he can only take so much.

Chukar12 wrote:I am making an assumption the dog is reacting this way on scent? What if you revert to stop to flush work upwind on birds the dog cannot smell? You eliminate one of the heightened senses and may be able to change the " habit?"

Bingo, I train STF before working on pointing steadiness. Just easier on the dog.

northern cajun wrote:

Chukar12 wrote:I am making an assumption the dog is reacting this way on scent? What if you revert to stop to flush work upwind on birds the dog cannot smell? You eliminate one of the heightened senses and may be able to change the " habit?"

Bingo, I train STF before working on pointing steadiness. Just easier on the dog.

A lot of dog trainers are adjusting to that approach. Only been doing it for a year but I think the results are good.

I actually teach steady to shot and flush before pointing comes into play always have. The happy feet starts when I come into the picture to flush the bird, IMO he is anticipating the flush and his brain starts going a 1000 MPH and so goes his feet. If I were to stand off he would be pointing until the following morning, but go in to flush and he gets foolish

pointshootretrieve wrote:I actually teach steady to shot and flush before pointing comes into play always have. The happy feet starts when I come into the picture to flush the bird, IMO he is anticipating the flush and his brain starts going a 1000 MPH and so goes his feet. If I were to stand off he would be pointing until the following morning, but go in to flush and he gets foolish

OK, you seem to know what you are doing and have covered the basics. Put an e-collar on the dog's flank, stimulate until the dog learns to stand. I would only reccomend this to an experienced trainer that has tried everything else in the tool box. I have never had to correct this problem, but each dog is an individual, all are different.

pointshootretrieve wrote:I actually teach steady to shot and flush before pointing comes into play always have. The happy feet starts when I come into the picture to flush the bird, IMO he is anticipating the flush and his brain starts going a 1000 MPH and so goes his feet. If I were to stand off he would be pointing until the following morning, but go in to flush and he gets foolish

If that's the case I would begin to extinguish the anticipation of the flush. When you, or an assistant steps in front of him, kick around and give him time to settle down. If he continues the behavior, don't reward him with a flush until he gets it right. He seems to think that this behavior always creates a positive response. Prove him wrong, and he'll start to understand there's no reward involved.

Nate

Interesting. As with most everyone time is of the essence and this may just be the crux of my problems. I should be taking him away from the situation for another day instead of correcting and forcing it through. I will give it a shot maybe he needs to be taken away from the situation for a few or more sessions.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:

pointshootretrieve wrote:I actually teach steady to shot and flush before pointing comes into play always have. The happy feet starts when I come into the picture to flush the bird, IMO he is anticipating the flush and his brain starts going a 1000 MPH and so goes his feet. If I were to stand off he would be pointing until the following morning, but go in to flush and he gets foolish

If that's the case I would begin to extinguish the anticipation of the flush. When you, or an assistant steps in front of him, kick around and give him time to settle down. If he continues the behavior, don't reward him with a flush until he gets it right. He seems to think that this behavior always creates a positive response. Prove him wrong, and he'll start to understand there's no reward involved.

Nate

Good recommendation. Wait him out. Flush once the feet are still. Still feet get the reward. I don't recommend stimulation with a bird on the ground.

If I didn't use the c-collar around birds, I would threw it away.

Neil wrote:If I didn't use the c-collar around birds, I would threw it away.

Ok, I was always told, don't stimulate a dog with the bird on the ground. Different story when the bird is in the air. Just one opinion

I will use the e-collar around birds when I have one that just loves to rip birds, I will say they must have the right temperament. I have never had one of my own rip birds over and over it is always someone elses mess

northern cajun wrote:

Chukar12 wrote:I am making an assumption the dog is reacting this way on scent? What if you revert to stop to flush work upwind on birds the dog cannot smell? You eliminate one of the heightened senses and may be able to change the " habit?"

Bingo, I train STF before working on pointing steadiness. Just easier on the dog.

I have sped up the "Steady to wing" by using "stop to flush" on a check cord and wild birds.

I will do some stop to flush.......you have to adjust yourself to what the dog says.....meaning, what are you all gonna do when the dog gets sticky on ya.....and is pointing everything? There is a new can of worms. I like stop to flush work, when the dogs aren't smelling, or wanting to catch a dog with its pants down. When it thinks, that its gonna do what it wants to do. You got to help get its brain, back with you. IMO. There is more to calming a dog. You have to be calm first.

The type dog you describe if I am reading your post right can really be a challenge. When you get the dogs feet still you will probably notice the tail is elevated and real happy, you will also notice a dog like this swinging its head looking around.. Feet are still but his little brain is still running at mach 1.

That's a very good way to put things. You gotta be patient, and adjust where its needed.

I have sped up the "Steady to wing" by using "stop to flush" on a check cord and wild birds.

That doesn't make sense to me. If the dog is nocking birds all over the place, its stop to flush, but in the dogs mind, seems to me like that's an "OH CRAP, I messed up" moment.......when its all on the dogs table, and it has finally gotten able to do some on its own...and find, an nail the wild bird, on a cord......to me seems like that is a different table, for the dogs mind?? Right? Or it seems to me, to be.

Thanks Jonesy

The earlier comment about the dog not standing still to be fed would lead me to think getting the dog to stand still befoer giving the command to eat would help get this dog on the track to control himself. I feed my lab and pointer 6" apart. The lab is required to sit, shake and look me in the eye until released to eat. The pointer must stand, shake, and look me in the eye until released. I vary the time they must sit/stand to keep them steady and staring at me.

When I'm carrying the food to the spot I feed them, they have "happy feet", but once the bowls are on the ground it all stops. I think requiring them to stare at me is what settles them.

This is the little booger on the chain gang, this was the first time on it since last summer so this is not something we practice. As you will see in the poorly shot video he is not a mexican jumping bean displaying nervous behavior, he did want to lay down a couple times where I put my foot under him to get him up and once I backed out because his feet started to go. I placed him and my Pointer on the chain after they were running around the yard for 20 minutes, ENJOY! Again sorry for the video quality

Looks normal and ready to train to me, real nice looking pup.

Mo

Maurice wrote:Looks normal and ready to train to me, real nice looking pup.

Mo

Thanks he is a very nice dog! I get him calmed down around game and get his lining and handling down and we will run some different venues. For a young dog he has done exceptional to this point and I am in no hurry, he is my gundog/buddy first and game dog second.

pointshootretrieve wrote:I actually teach steady to shot and flush before pointing comes into play always have. The happy feet starts when I come into the picture to flush the bird, IMO he is anticipating the flush and his brain starts going a 1000 MPH and so goes his feet. If I were to stand off he would be pointing until the following morning, but go in to flush and he gets foolish

I noticed something very interesting in the video. Do you talk to the dog when he's on point? Watch the video again, and observe the dog's reaction to your voice.

Nate

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:

pointshootretrieve wrote:I actually teach steady to shot and flush before pointing comes into play always have. The happy feet starts when I come into the picture to flush the bird, IMO he is anticipating the flush and his brain starts going a 1000 MPH and so goes his feet. If I were to stand off he would be pointing until the following morning, but go in to flush and he gets foolish

I noticed something very interesting in the video. Do you talk to the dog when he's on point? Watch the video again, and observe the dog's reaction to your voice.

Nate

No, but good thinking. In the video I felt he was not going to move at all unless prodded a bit, when I was walking up and in front of him he was standing pretty calm and normally I would have just stepped to his side unclipped him and let him off.

I never "prod" a dog into making a mistake, I don't prof them, I don't try to catching them doing somthing wrong, never set them up to fail. It can lead to the problems you are having, uncertainty can manifast itself in movement in trying to please. It is an uneeded short cut.

Set the dog up to succeed, catching them doing it right, help them do it right and build on it. Give the benefit of doubt to the dog, build trust, by trusting.

I rarely use "never" and "always" in dog training, but I am pretty sure on this one.

BTW I judge a trial the same way, I look for what the dog does right.

Neil

I did this more or less to show that he doesn't act like a complete lunatic. And you CANNOT set up a dog for success 100% of the time IMHO, how will they know right from wrong? For instance when a dog has shown me he can trail I mean really trail I then take the item away when he returns w/o the item he thinks the world is going to end because I raise holy heck with him for coming back and not having the item, on his way back the item is placed back down at the end of the trail and he returns with it and all is well

I know I cannot change your mind, but yes I can set up a dog to succeed 100% of the time, they don't always getting it right, and after I fully believe they know what I am asking and choose not to do it, only then do I correct them.

You are the one with the problem, I am just telling you "happy feet" can come from confusion and an eagerness to please when they have been tempted to break your rules.

If you are so sure of the answer, why did you ask?

And I retract my suggestion to put an e-collar on her flank, neither of you are ready for it.

" I can set up a dog to succeed 100% of the time, they don't always getting it right, and after I fully believe they know what I am asking and choose not to do it, only then do I correct them.

Nice statement Neil.

From a falcon training standpoint where most of my "animal" training is based, NOTHING SUCCEEDS LIKE SUCCESS .

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:

Neil wrote:If I didn't use the c-collar around birds, I would threw it away.

Ok, I was always told, don't stimulate a dog with the bird on the ground. Different story when the bird is in the air. Just one opinion

It depends on where you put the collar. If the point of contact is the neck...then NO...do not stimulate around birds. I think the dog equates the neck point of contact with obedience type commands and situations.

The flank collar is extremely effective in getting a dog to stop creeping and I have used it successfully for that. Used correctly, the collar around the flank does not cause loss of style or blinking or any of that. I do not know why the dogs perceive it differently, but they do.

I have not had to deal with happy feet, but I suspect it will work well for that also. If the collar is around the flank...and the setting is very low, then a nick might be all that is necessary to get the dog to stop.

I also agree with the posters that suggested repetitions of positive experiences and praise building on themselves and also the flip side, a "no joy" result, with the dog being quietly and calmly heeled away and put up for a half hour or more, for failure to stand quietly during the flush. Both these approaches should be effective.

RayG