Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

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Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sat May 11, 2013 2:03 pm

Nearly everyone reading this has heard about clicker training. Some have successfully experienced good results, and some have decided that it's just an extra step in training. Others think it's hogwash, and it has no place in gun dog training. This post isn't to convince you to start clicker training, but to clear up some of the misconceptions of a very misunderstood training tool. I apologize for the choppiness and repetition. I chose to break this down into a Q&A format, so that it can be easily picked apart for discussion.

What is a clicker?

A clicker is a simple box type device with a button, when pushed it makes a "clicking" sound. There are many shapes and sizes, but they essentially all work the same as a reinforcement.

What is a reinforcer?

A reinforcer is something that when presented following a behavior increases the likelihood of repeat behavior in the future. To be a reinforcer it needs to be perceived as something positive to the recipient. I you use a primary reinforcer (anything the dog inherently likes such as food, social contact, play or visual stimuli), paired with a secondary reinforcer (such as a click), a positive reinforcement and association will occur. We then use this positive association to reinforce desired behaviors, which can then be cued by a command. Any audible or visual signal can be a cue to the dog.

Why is a clicker different from other reinforcements?

The clicker is very consistent, and timeable. You could substitute the sound of the clicker with your voice or snapping your fingers, but the consistency and timing could never be compared. Your voice carries baggage whether you realize it or not. Also, the tendency to repeat a cue or talk to the dog, is virtually eliminated with clicker work.

On what principal does positive reinforcement "clicker" training work?

The is more of a general question, but it's important to understand. Positive reinforcement training works because your dog is far more motivated to please itself than it is to please you. If the dog anticipates a reward for a behavior, it is more motivated to exhibit that desired behavior than if it were forced to do it. That said, there must be a balance to reward for compliance and an understanding of how to avoid pressure. Just keep in mind that you can't build style in a dog with pressure. That's why I feel it's best to build style with the clicker, teaching and shaping the behavior first. When the behavior is in place and the cue is beginning to generate a conditioned response, you know the dog can handle and learn to avoid pressure.

How do I make the avoidance transition?

Making a transition to avoidance training is quite simple when the dog already fully understands the cue. By avoidance training I'm referring to teaching the dog to turn off, and avoid stimulation with the e-collar. Once you've established the lowest stimulation level the dog will respond to, you can begin to bridge the e-collar and the clicker. I use a training method called pre-cue / cue. This simply means the new thing before the learned thing. If you were to teach this kennel command with the clicker, you would first lure the dog to the kennel and click and treat every baby step of the way. Once the dog is enthusiastically entering the kennel, and gets rewarded every time he goes in then you generalize the command. Turn the kennel 90 degrees, stand further away from it, place it in various locations, etc... This is all done in very small steps that the dog can understand, and over the span of several months. (I don't do any e-collar work before the pup is at least 5 months old, but begin shaping behaviors with the clicker at 8 weeks. I also try to have introductory field work (birds and guns) completed by the age of 5 months. Begin with the dog on a check cord, and the e-collar receiver on the neck. (The dog should already be familiar with both the check cord and wearing the collar on his neck.) Give the dog the cue kennel and each time he goes in, click and treat. Set your pre-determined e-collar level. Stimulate and say kennel, when he goes in click and treat. When he's consistently going in on the stimulation before you say the cue, stimulate without the cue, and click and treat. At this point I give the cue and follow it with the stimulation, never again giving the dog stimulation before the cue for this command. Generalize the command and continue to click and treat when the dog goes in the kennel to keep him upbeat. With enough consistent repetitions you can eliminate the stimulation and the clicker. A conditioned response to the cue will eventually be made. Keep in mind that this doesn't happen right away, but over an extended period of time and with generalization to the command. Teaching the behavior with the clicker before teaching avoidance will result in a shorter learning curb, less pressure and less frequency of stimulation.

Nate

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by roaniecowpony » Sat May 11, 2013 4:15 pm

Nate
I would add that the clicker is based on principles established by Pavlov.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Sat May 11, 2013 8:33 pm

The above is correct for casual conversation, and I understand even some of today's professionals.

But 45 years ago we were taught that as in math positive reinforcement is a +, something added to the system or environment, negative reinforcement is a -, sometimg taken away.

Simpliciticly, giving a dog a treat is positive, taking the treat away is negative, but so is hitting a dog positive, when you stop hitting it it is negative.

I guess it is too confusing.

So I will go with your definitions.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Sat May 11, 2013 9:15 pm

You're right Neil. Positive Reinforcement = adding something that will increase a behaviour ie. Giving a treat for sitting. Positive Punishment would be kickinging a dog for sitting, adding something that will stop or decrease a behaviour. Negative reinforcement would be strangling a dog until it stood up from a sit, reinforcing the behaviour to stand. you subtract something, in this case strangling, to get the behaviour you want, not sitting. Negative Punishment is taking away something good, like sending a kid from recess to detention.

Look up quadrant theory.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by whoadog » Mon May 13, 2013 6:57 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:Your voice carries baggage whether you realize it or not.
Partial agreement on this one. Voice carries baggage if the trainer does not know how to use it properly. This is no different than an ecollar, leash, or clicker for that matter. It takes practice. My four-legged girl (daughter according to some of my friends) is one of the most well-socialized dogs I've ever had and, as such, is happiest when I'm happy. I know how to use my voice to communicate both my pleasure and displeasure with her behavior very effectively. Effectively enough, in fact, that I am certain I would lose something by using a clicker instead. I would agree with the following:
I
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote: have decided that it's just an extra step in training.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Mon May 13, 2013 10:10 pm

Neil wrote: Simpliciticly, giving a dog a treat is positive, taking the treat away is negative, but so is hitting a dog positive, when you stop hitting it it is negative.
The difference is how the dog perceives it. You can build style in a dog with the first, but the later will result in apprehension.

Nate

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Mon May 13, 2013 10:22 pm

whoadog wrote:is happiest when I'm happy.
I believe it's the times when you're not happy, tired, impatient or _____ that the dog cues on as well as when your happy. Everyone's voice carries baggage at least from time to time. At the very least it is inconsistent. One could also argue that audible cues apart from the sound of the click are unneeded to shape a behavior. It is entirely possible to get a 6 week old puppy to sit consistently without saying a word or putting a hand on it with click and treat. Not arguing what your doing doesn't work for you, just stating an alternate method.

Nate

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Mon May 13, 2013 11:24 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Neil wrote: Simpliciticly, giving a dog a treat is positive, taking the treat away is negative, but so is hitting a dog positive, when you stop hitting it it is negative.
The difference is how the dog perceives it. You can build style in a dog with the first, but the later will result in apprehension.

Nate
You missed my point, I was correcting your definitions. Positive reinforcement does not mean just something good, just as negative reinforcement does not always mean punishment. Positive = plus, Negative = minus.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Mon May 13, 2013 11:47 pm

Neil wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Neil wrote: Simpliciticly, giving a dog a treat is positive, taking the treat away is negative, but so is hitting a dog positive, when you stop hitting it it is negative.
The difference is how the dog perceives it. You can build style in a dog with the first, but the later will result in apprehension.

Nate
You missed my point, I was correcting your definitions. Positive reinforcement does not mean just something good, just as negative reinforcement does not always mean punishment. Positive = plus, Negative = minus.
Got it. And by the way it is sort of confusing. :D

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by whoadog » Tue May 14, 2013 6:01 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:I believe it's the times when you're not happy, tired, impatient or _____ that the dog cues on as well as when your happy.
I agree. That's why I don't train when I am not in the proper mood. Being self aware is an important part of dog training, in my opinion. How commands are given is no small thing, he way I carry myself influences how the dog responds, so on and so forth
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:Everyone's voice carries baggage at least from time to time. At the very least it is inconsistent.
Paired with my first I response, I will say that I have practiced this and believe myself to be very consistent in my messages. I have developed what I call a Jekyll and Hyde personality when it comes to interacting/training dogs. My personality is a bit passive/agressive to begin with so I can turn my anger/impatience/angst on and off rather easily. I understand that the dog needs instant positive/negative responses from me to get the proper "read" on their behavior and I think I do it very well. So, to this point, I will respectfully disagree. If the trainer/handler truly understands how learning takes place in the dog's pysche and is willing to practice, they can virtually eliminate all the baggage and inconsistency you are describing in their communication with the dog. I say communication because so much of what our dogs cue on is body language. This goes hand in hand with tone, call it baggage if you will, in the voice. Give the dog a complete and consistent message and results can be rather spectacular in very short order and, again in my opinion, a clicker is not necessary to do it. Now for the beginner, this may be a different story and a it very well may aid when experience lacks. But for someone with 45 years or so of study and hands on experience, a clicker is just one more thing to carry in my pockets.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue May 14, 2013 6:36 am

Neil wrote:The above is correct for casual conversation, and I understand even some of today's professionals.

But 45 years ago we were taught that as in math positive reinforcement is a +, something added to the system or environment, negative reinforcement is a -, sometimg taken away.

Simpliciticly, giving a dog a treat is positive, taking the treat away is negative, but so is hitting a dog positive, when you stop hitting it it is negative.

I guess it is too confusing.

So I will go with your definitions.

Reminds me of the saying "When did you stop beating your wife?"

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Tue May 14, 2013 8:52 am

Neil wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Neil wrote: Simpliciticly, giving a dog a treat is positive, taking the treat away is negative, but so is hitting a dog positive, when you stop hitting it it is negative.
The difference is how the dog perceives it. You can build style in a dog with the first, but the later will result in apprehension.

Nate
You missed my point, I was correcting your definitions. Positive reinforcement does not mean just something good, just as negative reinforcement does not always mean punishment. Positive = plus, Negative = minus.
Not quite. Positive reinforcement is pretty much always something good, because you are adding something that the dog likes so he does what he was doing more often.
Negative reinforcement is when you take away something unpleasant the moment the dog does what you want, increasing the likelihood the dog does what you want, so it can always be seen as a form of punishment.

Then there are positive and negative punishment, which are entirely different again. The positive reinforcement crowd are big proponents of negative punishment and it often gets lumped in with positive reinforcement. An example of negative punishment would be picking up a dogs food bowl when he breaks a sit.
Positive punishment is often lumped in with negative reinforcement, but again it is different.

I have found that if you understand those 4 theories and have an understanding of things that are self rewarding to a dog you can pretty much analyze and make sense of any training strategy, why what you did is working or not working etc... pretty much everything you do to a dog falls under those 4 things. It won't necessarily make you a good trainer but it lets you know why people use certain techniques and why they work.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Tue May 14, 2013 11:12 am

Yes, quite. Read Skinner and get back to us.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Tue May 14, 2013 11:30 am

I have read Skinner and positive reinforcement always means something good. You can't add an aversive for doing something you want and expect the behaviour to increase. You are mixing things up. Negative reinforcement is not reinforcing a behaviour because you are choking the dog, the behaviour is reinforced because you removed the choking.

You are right Positive doesn't always mean something good, but if it is bad than it is called Positive punishment, which is not a positive reinforcer. Maybe you should read Skinner.

You are trying to explain quadrant theory while leaving out 2 of the "4" quadrants. You are quite right in your definition on positive and negative, but you don't seem to know the correct definition of reinforcer as applied to quadrant theory, and you left out punishment all together.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue May 14, 2013 11:52 am

Winchey wrote: ... the behaviour is reinforced because you removed the choking.
An analogy to that would be when an inexperienced rider pulls constantly on the reins and you tell them to release pressure the second that the horse stops the ... (prancing, etc.)

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Tue May 14, 2013 4:01 pm

Read Skinner? As I have a Masters in psychology and ran a half-way house based on Reality Therapy, I "bleep" near memorized him. True, I did not attempt to share all I know, I was just trying to make clear - positive renforcement does not equate to something good.

Do not think of positive reinforcement as just a treat ot a pat.

In truth, when I talk of positive training and judging I make the same error, repeatly.

When someone defines terms, it would be nice to get the basics right.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Tue May 14, 2013 4:07 pm

A positive reinforcer is anything you add that will increase a certain behaviour, what is a bad positive reinforcer?

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Tue May 14, 2013 4:36 pm

Winchey wrote:A positive reinforcer is anything you add that will increase a certain behaviour, what is a bad positive reinforcer?

Electric shock! Not to just extinguish a response, but to reinforce an action. Whacking on the head, or anything you do or add, ANYTHING. Negative is only what you quit doing.

Why is it so hard to understand? Add = positive, remove = negative.

I am done, remain uneducated if you wish, it does not bother me that I can't understand how a plane stays in the air. It shouldn't bother you all that you don't understand behavior modification, there is really no need, it is semantics .

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Chukar12 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:44 pm

Neil wrote:Why is it so hard to understand? Add = positive, remove = negative
your explanations have not been in vain...I get it now.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Chukar12 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:57 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Nate
I would add that the clicker is based on principles established by Pavlov.
Just to make this more argumentative and or confusing I believe Pavlov is classical conditioning v. Skinner's operant conditioning (clicker). In example, Pavlov discovered a neutral signal (before the behavior) could elicit a response in the form of involuntary reflex behavior...a dog gets fed every time a bell rings, as a result when said bell rings...dog drools. Operant conditioning is meant to enhance or weaken behaviors by marking the behavior after its performed and the providing either encouragement or discouragement to the behavior. Once the behavior is learned a cue can be added to communicate what behavior is expected, and the process of encouragement or correction for compliance is in theory more easily understood.


Neil, Roanie, Winchey or anybody else with an education don't yell at me if I am wrong.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Tue May 14, 2013 4:58 pm

I had no problem understanding positive = add and negative = subtract. I have just never thought in the terms of an adversive positive reinforcer being used to reinforce a particular action as you have pointed out. I have only thought of a shock or whack on the head as positive punishment.

Thanks for sharing that.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Tue May 14, 2013 5:41 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Nate
I would add that the clicker is based on principles established by Pavlov.
Just to make this more argumentative and or confusing I believe Pavlov is classical conditioning v. Skinner's operant conditioning (clicker). In example, Pavlov discovered a neutral signal (before the behavior) could elicit a response in the form of involuntary reflex behavior...a dog gets fed every time a bell rings, as a result when said bell rings...dog drools. Operant conditioning is meant to enhance or weaken behaviors by marking the behavior after its performed and the providing either encouragement or discouragement to the behavior. Once the behavior is learned a cue can be added to communicate what behavior is expected, and the process of encouragement or correction for compliance is in theory more easily understood.


Neil, Roanie, Winchey or anybody else with an education don't yell at me if I am wrong.
I am no expert, but the dogs learning to equate the bell to food is the same as teaching the dogs to equate the clicker to food, or whatever. You use classical conditioning to turn the clicker into a bridge. I would say the clicker is classical conditioning and that classical conditioning is what makes the clicker effective, but it is used to make operant conditioning more effective in some instances. But I have been wrong before and will be again.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Tue May 14, 2013 7:06 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Nate
I would add that the clicker is based on principles established by Pavlov.
Just to make this more argumentative and or confusing I believe Pavlov is classical conditioning v. Skinner's operant conditioning (clicker). In example, Pavlov discovered a neutral signal (before the behavior) could elicit a response in the form of involuntary reflex behavior...a dog gets fed every time a bell rings, as a result when said bell rings...dog drools. Operant conditioning is meant to enhance or weaken behaviors by marking the behavior after its performed and the providing either encouragement or discouragement to the behavior. Once the behavior is learned a cue can be added to communicate what behavior is expected, and the process of encouragement or correction for compliance is in theory more easily understood.


Neil, Roanie, Winchey or anybody else with an education don't yell at me if I am wrong.
Yes, I guess I am not done when someone understands.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by whoadog » Wed May 15, 2013 8:16 am

For the clicker clique:
Let's say the wind is blowing 10+ mph and your dog is say 30-40 yards out and he does somthing specatular. How do you use the clicker to let him know he did good?

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Wed May 15, 2013 8:36 am

What do you do when your supposedly broke dog takes out a grouse brood 200 yards away in the woods?

In your scenario I would either say "atta boy" "whoa" or nothing at all.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by ACooper » Wed May 15, 2013 9:04 am

whoadog wrote:For the clicker clique:
Let's say the wind is blowing 10+ mph and your dog is say 30-40 yards out and he does somthing specatular. How do you use the clicker to let him know he did good?
Many folks who use the clicker will also "mark" a behavior by saying yes. Some interchangeably some only use the word yes, that way you are never without your clicker.

Lots of folks focus on the clicker, the clicker is only tool "mark" behavior, you can do that with a number of things.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Wed May 15, 2013 9:12 am

Chukar12 wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Nate
I would add that the clicker is based on principles established by Pavlov.
Just to make this more argumentative and or confusing I believe Pavlov is classical conditioning v. Skinner's operant conditioning (clicker). In example, Pavlov discovered a neutral signal (before the behavior) could elicit a response in the form of involuntary reflex behavior...a dog gets fed every time a bell rings, as a result when said bell rings...dog drools. Operant conditioning is meant to enhance or weaken behaviors by marking the behavior after its performed and the providing either encouragement or discouragement to the behavior. Once the behavior is learned a cue can be added to communicate what behavior is expected, and the process of encouragement or correction for compliance is in theory more easily understood.


Neil, Roanie, Winchey or anybody else with an education don't yell
at me if I am wrong.

To be more clear the first step is to load the clicker, you simply click, treat, repeat. Classical conditioning. Even if you skip that step, and click a behaviour, the click is still followed by a treat and in my mind and from what I have seen the dog will still connect the click to the reward after the click before it connects the click to the action prior the click. Does that make sense?

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Chukar12 » Wed May 15, 2013 9:22 am

whoadog wrote:For the clicker clique:Let's say the wind is blowing 10+ mph and your dog is say 30-40 yards out and he does somthing specatular. How do you use the clicker to let him know he did good?
First off, a dog will have no trouble hearing a clicker at 30 or 40 yards in a 10+ mile an hour wind, depending on how many pluses you care to add.

However, more apropos is to ask you to be more specific about what is spectacular at 30 or 40 yards in your training application with the clicker? If you have not done any research or experimentation allow me to help. I use a technique called targeting to help send a dog out on cue, a dog learns with great enthusiasm to touch a target with his nose for recognition and reward. Eventually, I stack this behavior with a stand still behavior and put a target some distance behind the dog, say 30 or 40 yards, (sparing all of us the complexity of detail), on a release and eventually a cue (the whistle) the dog turns and runs to touch the target. When he or she does, I notify the dog it is correct, at 30 or 40 yards. The benefit in my experience has been a dog that needs far less compulsion to respond to a whistle or voice command to be sent on. As a consistent observer of hunting and trial dogs I can tell you that many people cannot train well to this as witnessed by a parade of dogs that return to six feet in front of their handler prior to their next cast.

Clicker training is not a complete field dog training system or discipline. It fortifies behavior through positives and negatives with precise recognition of the behavior. Some behaviors have practical application later in breaking and others are just exercises that help a dog to learn to learn. Those who do not find the motivation to research it or employ it will only have the understanding of an observer, those who take the time to comment or measure its effectiveness without the aforementioned will simply close more doors to learning about behavior, and in fairness probably not really care that they do, they have their own clique.

Compulsion and discipline are always necessary, but whether it is with humans or dogs, it should never come without communication and training first. Those who do not recognize that make poor leaders whether it be of people or dogs.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Wed May 15, 2013 1:41 pm

Winchey wrote:What do you do when your supposedly broke dog takes out a grouse brood 200 yards away in the woods?

In your scenario I would either say "atta boy" "whoa" or nothing at all.
I bump him with the e-collar until he stops and stands, true positive reinforcement. Thanks to hours with the Buddy Strick, they rarely try to turn back to you, but stand still when corrected.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Wed May 15, 2013 1:49 pm

I always seen the bumping as stopping the chasing. I see that as negative reinforcement, you are taking away the pressure when the dog commits the desired behaviour.

I have never been able to hear a brood of grouse get up at 200 yards or been able to see my dog do it, so I would do nothing.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Maurice » Wed May 15, 2013 3:21 pm

Wow, I started not to look, did it anyway sure did. Carry on fellas, way above my pay grade :wink:

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Winchey » Wed May 15, 2013 3:35 pm

Whether you can define the techniques in psychological terms I don't know, but judging from your reputation you can employ those techniques as well as anyone and that is what matters.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Chukar12 » Wed May 15, 2013 3:49 pm

Maurice wrote:Wow, I started not to look, did it anyway sure did. Carry on fellas, way above my pay grade
None of you charge enough... :)

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Wed May 15, 2013 9:01 pm

ACooper wrote:
whoadog wrote:For the clicker clique:
Let's say the wind is blowing 10+ mph and your dog is say 30-40 yards out and he does somthing specatular. How do you use the clicker to let him know he did good?
Many folks who use the clicker will also "mark" a behavior by saying yes. Some interchangeably some only use the word yes, that way you are never without your clicker.

Lots of folks focus on the clicker, the clicker is only tool "mark" behavior, you can do that with a number of things.
I agree to an extent, but teaching and shaping new behaviors with the clicker is hard to beat. Timing and consistency are on the side of the clicker when used properly in yard work, plus the fact that the dog associates the sound with something positive to come. Each and every time it hears the sound.

In the field a whistle and e-collar are probably your most reliable tools. This is the reason for the transition to the e-collar. The tone feature on many e-collars can also be used effectively. Its extremely easy to make a transition from the clicker to the tone.

Nate

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by campgsp » Wed May 15, 2013 9:18 pm

Why not just use the ecollar and tone from day one? Instead of clicker use cc and tone just like you would transition cc to shock. To me that seems better. But what do I know..

I don't mean to stir the pot. Maybe I'm just not getting something.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Wed May 15, 2013 9:52 pm

campgsp wrote:Why not just use the ecollar and tone from day one? Instead of clicker use cc and tone just like you would transition cc to shock. To me that seems better. But what do I know..

I don't mean to stir the pot. Maybe I'm just not getting something.
A valid question. I'm glad this thread is being used as I hoped.

1. You can begin clicker training at a very young age. I've used the clicker to teach sit to pups as young as 6 weeks. (I don't recommend placing an e-collar on a young pup.)

2. You want to do several short sessions each day. (Who wants to put an e-collar on the dog all the time?)

3. I use the e-collar only once the behavior is learned. I teach nothing new with the collar, but use it to generalize the command. With the e-collar the dog learns to avoid the stimulation, and the tone can be used as a positive notifier.

Nate

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by campgsp » Wed May 15, 2013 10:50 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
A valid question. I'm glad this thread is being used as I hoped.

1. You can begin clicker training at a very young age. I've used the clicker to teach sit to pups as young as 6 weeks. (I don't recommend placing an e-collar on a young pup.)

2. You want to do several short sessions each day. (Who wants to put an e-collar on the dog all the time?)

3. I use the e-collar only once the behavior is learned. I teach nothing new with the collar, but use it to generalize the command. With the e-collar the dog learns to avoid the stimulation, and the tone can be used as a positive notifier.

Nate
Here's just my thoughts though not to bash the clicker in anyway.

1. I start training from the day I get the pup.8-12 weeks. With thin cc and turned off ecollar on the pup. same results except I don't teach sit

2. Several short sessions every day, and always have ecollar on pup in each training scenario. They actually grow to know the collar means fun. And reduces the chance for collar wise dog when you do start to transition only to collar.

3. Nothing just agree.

I know the clicker is another way of training and the end results are the same. Parden me, but it just seems that inorder to finish the dog you would have to do a complete turn around and transition backwards. In other words start over.
Unlike training with a cc and collar at the same time. Where as your actually transitioning the entire way through.

Just my thoughts. Not trying to challenge your ways, just looking at it all in a resourcefulness kind of way.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Wed May 15, 2013 10:56 pm

I feel this thread has finally taken some good footing. I just hope that folks don't find this stuff too confusing or too ridiculous to try, or prematurely resort to saying why bother clicker training a gun dog anyway?
Clicker training really isn't all that complicated, and its based on consistency. Here is something that should help clear up some of the misconceptions and help provide some sense of unity. But as others have said, "I've been wrong before." :wink:


[b]CLICKER TALK[/b]

1. Base Loading: Gives meaning to the sound of the clicker. To form an association you simply click and give your dog a small treat (10-20 times). repeat this short training session until the dog gives you its undivided attention. Its best to do the first sessions in a place with no distractions, and when the dog is hungry.

2. Click=Treat: When teaching a new behavior follow every click with one treat.

3. Don't click indiscriminately: Always remember that the click marks a behavior, it is not a cue or attention getter. You get what you click, not necessarily what you want.

4. Click a behavior while it is happening: Click as the dog commits to an action while its in motion, if possible. The better your focus and timing, the faster it will discriminate what behavior you are reinforcing.

5. Don't rely on food as your only motivator: While pieces of hotdog are usually a great reward, also watch your dog's responses to toys, play and touch. (The reward could even be something visibly pleasing. For example: A pigeon from a launcher.)

6. The click ends the behavior: Click once to communicate that a particular behavior is what you want, and remember that any behavior following the click is not pertinent to the training at hand.

7. Say the command / cue once: Add the command once you see that the dog is offering the response quickly and with some frequency. Add the cue as he is doing the behavior, and follow with the click and treat.

8. Be generous: When adding new behaviors to already learned ones, expect some backsliding. With patience and guidance these will reappear.

9. Rule of 3's: If you have three non-successful tries you may be moving too quickly. Stop, assess and address possible causes. You may need to break the lesson into smaller parts or find additional training is needed to move ahead. Remember that dogs must be trained in very small steps and cannot understand concepts very well.

10. Enjoy: Get creative and have fun with the clicker and your dog - the possibilities are endless.


Nate

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by whoadog » Thu May 16, 2013 9:23 am

Chukar12 wrote:However, more apropos is to ask you to be more specific about what is spectacular at 30 or 40 yards in your training application with the clicker?
Nice dodge, but you know what I am saying. The greater the distance from the dog, the more difficult the tool becomes to use.
ACooper wrote:Many folks who use the clicker will also "mark" a behavior by saying yes.
So why go to the extra trouble of using a clicker. For years I have used a piece of hot dog with a solid "good dog" just as I have used "hey, hey, hey" as punishment with a good dose of ecollar coming on the last "hey". I've understand the importance of consistency and timing and have practiced extensively. I understand clicker training and, without a doubt, the principles behind it are rock solid. But, I try to use tools as often as I can that I always have in my possession. When I let the dog out for the last time of the day behind a hotel on a late winter pheasant hunt, I don't want to need an ecollar to get him back or a clicker to tell him how much I appreciate his good behavior. I stand by my first post and will take it a step farther. A clicker is a dog training tool not much different than an ecollar. Neither is a panacea for training issues for someone who does not comprehend what dog training actually entails. Some people prefer to use one, the other or both, and, believe it or not, there are still a very few who do not find it necessary to use either. I choose the ecollar. But, a clicker is something I can do without.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Chukar12 » Thu May 16, 2013 10:23 am

whoadog wrote:Nice dodge, but you know what I am saying. The greater the distance from the dog, the more difficult the tool becomes to use
It's not a dodge, as a semi professional trainer I would think the facts surrounding operant conditioning would be of interest to you. A check cord is difficult to use at 200 yards as well, so is a barrel, and a pinch collar, and a Buddy Stick, and, and, and...You still aren't understanding the application in training a pointing dog. It is a behavior shaping tool used in early and critical stages to get behaviors with positive reinforcement rather than compulsion. A methodology in my opinion that allows a whole lot less to be taken out of the dog. I have no use for a clicker at 30 yards away other than what I described. I asked you the question because you have taken a critical tone from a basis of ignorance.

I venture that not a single person actually cares whether you use a clicker or not...not a single one...and I mean on the planet. I was as critical and ignorant as anyone until I studied and tried the process, my actual experiences helped me find a way to understand and employ something that has turned out to be an advantage, and I sort of hope not too many folks do catch on and use it.

The concept is used in many disciplines where communication is difficult a good example in humans are some positive results in helping those with autism. I would not dream of suggesting any training technique is inferior, but its not hard to spot trainers with limited capacity, and maybe their ability suits their purpose just fine, I certainly am not here to judge and couldn't care any less personally. However, I hate misconceptions. Clickers, hot dogs, treats or any tools don't replace birds...if you throw a piece of hot dog out and a flopping quail and your dog responds to the hot dog...get a new dog. By the way, i stole that...
Joe

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by roaniecowpony » Thu May 16, 2013 10:40 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:I feel this thread has finally taken some good footing. I just hope that folks don't find this stuff too confusing or too ridiculous to try, or prematurely resort to saying why bother clicker training a gun dog anyway?
Clicker training really isn't all that complicated, and its based on consistency. Here is something that should help clear up some of the misconceptions and help provide some sense of unity. But as others have said, "I've been wrong before." :wink:


[b]CLICKER TALK[/b]

1. Base Loading: Gives meaning to the sound of the clicker. To form an association you simply click and give your dog a small treat (10-20 times). repeat this short training session until the dog gives you its undivided attention. Its best to do the first sessions in a place with no distractions, and when the dog is hungry.

2. Click=Treat: When teaching a new behavior follow every click with one treat.

3. Don't click indiscriminately: Always remember that the click marks a behavior, it is not a cue or attention getter. You get what you click, not necessarily what you want.

4. Click a behavior while it is happening: Click as the dog commits to an action while its in motion, if possible. The better your focus and timing, the faster it will discriminate what behavior you are reinforcing.

5. Don't rely on food as your only motivator: While pieces of hotdog are usually a great reward, also watch your dog's responses to toys, play and touch. (The reward could even be something visibly pleasing. For example: A pigeon from a launcher.)

6. The click ends the behavior: Click once to communicate that a particular behavior is what you want, and remember that any behavior following the click is not pertinent to the training at hand.

7. Say the command / cue once: Add the command once you see that the dog is offering the response quickly and with some frequency. Add the cue as he is doing the behavior, and follow with the click and treat.

8. Be generous: When adding new behaviors to already learned ones, expect some backsliding. With patience and guidance these will reappear.

9. Rule of 3's: If you have three non-successful tries you may be moving too quickly. Stop, assess and address possible causes. You may need to break the lesson into smaller parts or find additional training is needed to move ahead. Remember that dogs must be trained in very small steps and cannot understand concepts very well.

10. Enjoy: Get creative and have fun with the clicker and your dog - the possibilities are endless.


Nate
Great job Nate.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by roaniecowpony » Thu May 16, 2013 10:50 am

Just my 2 cents on saying the word "yes" in place of the clicker, but I believe your voice carries baggage no matter how encouraging you try to make it sound. Snapping your fingers would be a better alternative IMO.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri May 17, 2013 5:18 pm

Operant conditioning was so much more effective before dog trainers tried to use it to make a living.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by 4dabirds » Fri May 17, 2013 6:20 pm

Just to add a little something to this discussion. I started training my dog with out a clicker using a barrel and positive reinforcement no real pressure. After having worked the dog for a while I started using the clicker. The behaviors that I used the clicker on from the beginning are night and day better then the ones I started without the clicker. My dogs response to the clicker trained behaviors are incredible. When I tell the dog to heal from a distance he runs full speed to me . When he reaches my side he is going so fast that he slides past me and has to claw his way back to my side. The dog does this with a wagging tail because he sees it as a rewardable behavior , not because he was compelled to do this. To me this is exciting to see . I think people with this experience just want to share this with others. I have long ago stopped giving the reward for this behavior yet years later he still continues to do this like i have a t-bone in my hand. It is very simple, the dog has a greater understanding of what it is that gets the reward. The motivation is built in when the dog is hungry . A motivated dog is easy to train.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by ezzy333 » Fri May 17, 2013 6:33 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Just my 2 cents on saying the word "yes" in place of the clicker, but I believe your voice carries baggage no matter how encouraging you try to make it sound. Snapping your fingers would be a better alternative IMO.
I sure hope you are right and I am sure you are about the tone of your voice meaning something. That explains exactly our concern with communicating here on this board, it is impossible to communicate your feelings. It is just as important that the dog knows from the tone as it is for us here. If you yell at the dog every time it does something good then the dog will understand that you are happy and if you praise with a pleasant voice the dog will read that also. There is nothing wrong with a voice carrying baggage as long as the baggage is always the same. In other words just be consistent.

If any one wants to use a clicker it sounds like it works well and for those that don't use it, that works well also. It is just personal opinion at what you feel comfortable with.

Ezzy
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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Fri May 17, 2013 10:36 pm

OK, I'm goin' in. www.positivegundogtraining.com

I'm still pretty skeptical about this, but I am already sold on the clicker, so who knows? I'm also open minded enough to hear this guy out. I plan to give him a visit next time I'm in Denver.

Nate

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Neil » Sat May 18, 2013 1:34 am

You all need to check out Robert Millner at Duckhill.

http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/pos ... gs.php[url][/url]

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat May 18, 2013 6:21 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:OK, I'm goin' in. http://www.positivegundogtraining.com

I'm still pretty skeptical about this, but I am already sold on the clicker, so who knows? I'm also open minded enough to hear this guy out. I plan to give him a visit next time I'm in Denver.

Nate
He doesn't impress me and I've told him so. He thinks training a field sit is the way to start a pointing breed.
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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by roaniecowpony » Sat May 18, 2013 6:47 am

ezzy333 wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Just my 2 cents on saying the word "yes" in place of the clicker, but I believe your voice carries baggage no matter how encouraging you try to make it sound. Snapping your fingers would be a better alternative IMO.
I sure hope you are right and I am sure you are about the tone of your voice meaning something. That explains exactly our concern with communicating here on this board, it is impossible to communicate your feelings. It is just as important that the dog knows from the tone as it is for us here. If you yell at the dog every time it does something good then the dog will understand that you are happy and if you praise with a pleasant voice the dog will read that also. There is nothing wrong with a voice carrying baggage as long as the baggage is always the same. In other words just be consistent.

If any one wants to use a clicker it sounds like it works well and for those that don't use it, that works well also. It is just personal opinion at what you feel comfortable with.

Ezzy

I think you hit the point the professional proponents of the clicker have pointed out. You can't be consistent with a tool (your voice) that gets used for many functions. The average dog is exposed to your voice in many different ways, even when you aren't addressing the dog. Can it work? Obviously it can. A click is just a tool that only gets used for one thing in the dog's life, it signifies a good behavior to him, followed by a reward. You could use a whoopee cushion if that's all you used it for. It's a clear communication to the dog that can't be confused. But... Clicker proponents caution about using the clicker indiscriminately. I think the concern being, you'll desensitize the dog to the click. If you walked around your house/kennel all day clicking as often as you spoke, whether to the dog or someone else, that dog would break the association to behavior at the time of the click (if it had previous clicker training) and food. Dogs starting with a clicker don't have as strong an association with the behavior/click/reward as one that is 4 years old and has had the clicker used for various things throughout its life. That's just my take on it Ezzy. And I'm not a clicker expert.
Regards
Chuck

Ezzy,
If you ever get a chance to see an expert with a clicker and target (ball on a stick) work with some 12 week old puppies, it's a really amazing thing to see. I watched Hickox do it last September. I think the advantages over a voice praise will be self-evident if you see it.

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Re: Positive Reinforcement Training With the Clicker

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sat May 18, 2013 8:57 am

Neil wrote:You all need to check out Robert Millner at Duckhill.

http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/pos ... gs.php[url][/url]
www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php

Thanks Neil,

I think I can relate much better to this program. I've found myself relying on the e-collar less and less over the past few years. My 8 year old ESS doesn't need the collar. In fact I haven't ran him with a collar for at least 4 years now, and he's a MH caliber bird dog. I'm currently doing a lot of e-collar free training with my GSP. I don't care what anyone says or how you train with the e-collar, the dog knows the difference and behaves differently without it. For better or for worse.

Nate

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