COST OF TRAINING??

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campgsp
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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by campgsp » Sat May 18, 2013 4:40 pm

Neil wrote:
campgsp wrote:
As far as a dog being broke in a few months, but not have style or run, and not really being broke.... Um wrooong;
You break a dog the right way is all it takes. When the dog is pointing a bird throw birds from your pouch into the air, guess what over a short time the dog will style up his head will be up on point in anticipation of the flying birds
For run umm just plant the birds farther and farther. Best way is to make a
U shape of birds planted far out. What the dog will learn with reps is that the birds are out there any way he goes as long as its forward he will find a bird. Really simple to break a dog in a few months and keep style and run/drive if done the proper way. And a broke dog is a broke dog. Steady wing shot fall, completely obedient, retrieves, finds game , honors, etc broke is broke.
Good luck birddog98 hope it all works out, get another trainer though..
I would like to think when I started, was new and inexperienced, I never showed the arrogance above. I hope I didn't speak about the best way, it being really simple, the proper way, etc. You train more than a couple, three dogs and one of them will teach you some humility, humility is a good thing.

If I didn't know then, I know now there is not one best way to train, that each dog learns at their own pace in their own way. I know there are number of good trainers that get great results that do not train the way I do, and I don't anyone that trains as discribed above.
I'm with you, my wording was bad. But to train a dog is very simple if it wasn't people wouldn't
e training dogs. Lots of work yes, but Simple. Three commands make or break a pointing dog, heel woah and come, with those three you can teach a dog anything. Don't believe me ask some pros, read up on it, it's practically everywhere.
As far as the methods I said lots of people do it this way. Take a look at protection kennels for one. And think about it just a minute if you place birds out and you know that in any direction the dog goes as long as its forward he'll run into a bird, what do you think the outcome will be?... Maybe I came off in my post as being nyeve in my posts. Sure there are other ways, but I can only point out what I have had successful experience with.
I never clicker trained a dog so am I supposed to tell people how to do it ? Heck no!

Sorry if that's wrong. But just because something doesn't work for someone else doesn't mean it don't work. Just because one person can't wing and shot a dog in a month doesn't mean it's not possible, just because people do break dogs in a shorter time then some doesn't mean the dog looses style and drive because of it.

All I'm saying is the way you go about it can have its advantages.Or it's disadvantages. By the way ff is whole nother month added to any training. I wouldn't put ff into any field training time frame, as well as water all both those will make training last longer. If that makes scenes.

I never ment to sound arrogant by no means.

birddog98
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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by birddog98 » Sat May 18, 2013 4:56 pm

Does anyone know if you can shoot birds during the summer months on the Prairies? Not just pigeons!! Thanks

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cmc274
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COST OF TRAINING??

Post by cmc274 » Sat May 18, 2013 5:37 pm

birddog98 wrote:Does anyone know if you can shoot birds during the summer months on the Prairies? Not just pigeons!! Thanks
No, it isn't hunting season. If your looking for a HT test dog, bring it home and find someone regionally you can work with. if you don't mind helping pay your trainers truck note, which sounds like the case,by all means, keep them with said pro.

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ACooper
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COST OF TRAINING??

Post by ACooper » Sat May 18, 2013 5:59 pm

The more comfortable I became with my trainer the less contact I needed. She called after trials to tell me how it went, otherwise I would check in every couple of weeks.

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by Neil » Sat May 18, 2013 6:26 pm

Campgsp,

Even your explaination is arrogant.

You don't even know what you don't know.

The main thing you and others have left out, is training for finding wild birds when they are scarce, the purpose of a pointing dog. And why they need to go North.

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campgsp
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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by campgsp » Sat May 18, 2013 7:11 pm

Neil wrote:Campgsp,

Even your explaination is arrogant.

You don't even know what you don't know.

The main thing you and others have left out, is training for finding wild birds when they are scarce, the purpose of a pointing dog. And why they need to go North.
the only arrogance is from you :twisted: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Anyone can read a book and think they know it all. see it all the time, see it here more.

training for wild birds when they are scarce? ummm, if the dog is a HUNTING dog and you are taking him HUNTING the dog should be HUNTING the whole time birds or no birds. Its breed in duh :roll: training a dog to get out and stay forward, and have style was my point. DUH :roll: :roll:

see now im being arrogant. you asked for it :evil:

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by Neil » Sat May 18, 2013 7:33 pm

I am willing to compare dogs trained, field trial wins, trials judged, pure experience, or most any other measure with you.

There is so much more to a top pointing dog than just staying in front of you, so much more.

Ignrance is bliss, enjoy.

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campgsp
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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by campgsp » Sat May 18, 2013 7:47 pm

Neil wrote:I am willing to compare dogs trained, field trial wins, trials judged, pure experience, or most any other measure with you.

There is so much more to a top pointing dog than just staying in front of you, so much more.

Ignrance is bliss, enjoy.
See I don't need to prove anything to anyone if I felt I did I'd be bragging about my dogs in the brag posts, putting them in under my posts etc. (Well I did brag on one, but that's a breeding so it don't count) 8) I know what I have, had, and know. The people that know me personally know. So..

We agree on something there is a ton more to finishing a dog we both know this. Like I said before my comments we're based on a comment

Ignorance is bliss brotha, or maybe sista, whichever :mrgreen:

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by birddog98 » Sat May 18, 2013 7:56 pm

Hey Guys and Gals Maybe,

All I was asking for was a good Setter that could get the job done! I have always raised Ryman,Old Hemlock Setters not your field trial type! And I never wanted them steady to wing so when that grouse came up my setter was after it in case of cripple etc! So why I got a pro to do this new setter,just don't have the know how,im sure I could learn and think I will for now on!!

In the past, present we all know what we had,,,Heck I had a Ryman Blue Pup at 4 months pointing and holding grouse and woodcock excellent! Field trial Setters I don't have a clue on!!

I wanted a Setter to do AKC Hunt Test with!

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cmc274
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COST OF TRAINING??

Post by cmc274 » Sat May 18, 2013 8:07 pm

Neil wrote:Campgsp,

Even your explaination is arrogant.

You don't even know what you don't know.

The main thing you and others have left out, is training for finding wild birds when they are scarce, the purpose of a pointing dog. And why they need to go North.
Neil,

The dog has been north once and the OP indicated he wanted a dog that was FF'd and ready to run in hunt tests. I cannot see where a 2nd trip north would be worth the expense. If the op stated he wanted his dog in top shape for the fall wild bird hunting season, it's a different story.

I was talking to a trainer recently and he mentioned that a client called to discuss to sending a dog north for a 2nd summer. The trainer told him that he is better off keeping the dog home and enjoying him. The dog was what he was and another year north would provide minimal benefit compared to the cost. That's the kind of honesty I like in a trainer.

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campgsp
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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by campgsp » Sat May 18, 2013 8:11 pm

birddog98 wrote:Hey Guys and Gals Maybe,

All I was asking for was a good Setter that could get the job done! I have always raised Ryman,Old Hemlock Setters not your field trial type! And I never wanted them steady to wing so when that grouse came up my setter was after it in case of cripple etc! So why I got a pro to do this new setter,just don't have the know how,im sure I could learn and think I will for now on!!

In the past, present we all know what we had,,,Heck I had a Ryman Blue Pup at 4 months pointing and holding grouse and woodcock excellent! Field trial Setters I don't have a clue on!!

I wanted a Setter to do AKC Hunt Test with!
My bad birdog for getting you post off topic. :?

For the time the trainer has had the dog and your expenses without any really good results it just isn't practical. I had a friend get screwed by a trainer so I kind of get where your at. Doing it yourself is always an option depending on your situation in example, use of land, birds on hand, and the biggest TIME. So don't be afraid to send your dog or another to a good trainer if need be. They are out there I know more then a few.

Keep your head up, it will all work out and you'll be bagging them grouse over a well behaved dog in no time.

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by Neil » Sat May 18, 2013 8:22 pm

Cmc,

You are right.

birddog98
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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by birddog98 » Sat May 18, 2013 8:42 pm

All is good! Im just glad that there are people out there to help!! Pic of a pup of mine
427779_451815794857735_480871548_n.jpg
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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by roaniecowpony » Sat May 18, 2013 9:41 pm

birddog98
Just a question on the path you took... I see you spent a good chunk of money and may or may not have a dog up to your expectations. If you were to seek another dog, would you follow a similar path where you purchase a pup and pay to train it, train it yourself, or buy a finished dog?

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by SCT » Sat May 18, 2013 9:52 pm

I recently sent one of my male pointers (10 months old) to a pro field trialer to be trained to handle from horseback. Prior to taking him to the pro I explained what he is like and what I wanted him to teach, and asked how long it should take. He replied 2 months. Got my first real feedback on him after three weeks of being there and after I got the report I was hoping for I asked if he is on schedule, and the pro said he is. I'll be going up to see his progress in two weeks and will see him run two days in a row. This pro is about a 7 hour drive from me. If I couldn't go see him I'd probably ask for a video once every few weeks to show his progress. That could become a real pain for him to do but I'd hope he would do that for me.

Good luck with you dog, hope she's broke when you get her back.

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat May 18, 2013 11:31 pm

Anyone expecting a 2yr old to be a "finished" dog is expecting too much whether the dog is with a pro or self trained.

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by birddog98 » Sat May 18, 2013 11:45 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Anyone expecting a 2yr old to be a "finished" dog is expecting too much whether the dog is with a pro or self trained.

Comes the question A two year old what does the word finish mean? I see that in so many terms and always get different answers! Winning Field Trials I have no clue....Out hunting wild birds, holding point steady to wing and shot.heel, whoa retrieve yes it can def be done in two years....I don't know for the big running setters or the trials but a wild bird finding machine yes!

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by birddog98 » Sat May 18, 2013 11:51 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:birddog98
Just a question on the path you took... I see you spent a good chunk of money and may or may not have a dog up to your expectations. If you were to seek another dog, would you follow a similar path where you purchase a pup and pay to train it, train it yourself, or buy a finished dog?
I have always trained my own setters.....They are a different line of setters close working! I can breed and keep having pups and train,but when I bought this started setter from the trainer I asked just to go ahead and finish her out for me since at the moment with work and hatching season going on I knew I would not have the time!

So if I was to ever buy another pup one if I have the time I would train...Or at least make it in driving distance where I could go visit!

I guess that was my downfall,it being to far away!

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun May 19, 2013 12:04 am

birddog98 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Anyone expecting a 2yr old to be a "finished" dog is expecting too much whether the dog is with a pro or self trained.

Comes the question A two year old what does the word finish mean? I see that in so many terms and always get different answers! Winning Field Trials I have no clue....Out hunting wild birds, holding point steady to wing and shot.heel, whoa retrieve yes it can def be done in two years....I don't know for the big running setters or the trials but a wild bird finding machine yes!

Think about what your end goal is with your dog and train for that. Age has no matter in any stage of training since each situation and dog is different.

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by birddog98 » Sun May 19, 2013 12:16 am

Yes def agree with you there! I know what I want may be different then what another wants and I for one no even out of the same litter each pup can be different that is for sure!

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sun May 19, 2013 8:36 am

birddog98 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Anyone expecting a 2yr old to be a "finished" dog is expecting too much whether the dog is with a pro or self trained.

Comes the question A two year old what does the word finish mean? I see that in so many terms and always get different answers! Winning Field Trials I have no clue....Out hunting wild birds, holding point steady to wing and shot.heel, whoa retrieve yes it can def be done in two years....I don't know for the big running setters or the trials but a wild bird finding machine yes!
It really does depend on the dog in question. If the dog was introduced to birds and guns properly, and yard work and ff was done within the first year or so, I'd say having a 2 year old finished dog is certainly possible. But many dogs don't have a good head start, and training doesn't begin until 8-12 months. It is those same dogs that are usually expected to learn to much too quickly. It is that same type of dog that cannot handle the pressure, and develops problems.

A lot of dogs mature between that age of 2 and 3. Sometimes its best to take it easy on the dog, and let it develop. Applying too much pressure too soon will result in a dog that is either apprehensive, case hardened or mechanical.

Nate

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Re: COST OF TRAINING??

Post by birddog98 » Sun May 19, 2013 11:56 am

Agree it is the age of the dog! I have seen people not do a thing with a setter until two years old( I don't believe in that but its me! When I do have a litter my pups go in a quail field flight covered and can chase and point and this gets their motor going when I see that is all they are thinking about I will start off with a cap pistol from a distance!...Guess we all have different ways!

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