Transition to Birds

[Double Shot Banks]

Hello,
I have been doing retrieves with Banks for about a week now since his FF training. I was really comfertable with his progress and he was retrieving/heel/hold and give nearly perfectly. (heeling with bumper) So i had the idea to try a frozen/thawed pigeon to see how he does, because soon we were hoping to start gun conditioning him with live birds (but wanted him retrieving them first). I had the bird in my pocket and im sure he smelled it. I tried to do a normal retrieve with the bumper like normal before the bird, and he didnt want to retrieve it. He ran to it then started sniffing the ground looking for the bird. After this i tried the bird (he was on a check cord) he got it, and didnt want to come so i pulled him lightly and he came and heeled but was mouthing the bird and almost maybe trying to eat it. He didnt want to give it up i had to pry it out while pinching his lips on his teeth with one hand.
I know he will need a few FF refreshers before hunting season, and im going to talk to my dad about his progress and what happened tonight.
But id like to know what you would do in a situation similar to this. Banks is a 9 month old lab, like i said he was just FF trained and was retrieving bumpers like a pro.
Thanks
Isaac and Banks

[whatsnext]

He is not ff to me and i would start over, i have only ff two dogs so i am no expert but it sounds to me like some things may have been rushed.

[Doc E]

1. I had the bird in my pocket and im sure he smelled it. I tried to do a normal retrieve with the bumper like normal before the bird, and he didnt want to retrieve it. He ran to it then started sniffing the ground looking for the bird.

2. After this i tried the bird (he was on a check cord) he got it, and didnt want to come so i pulled him lightly and he came and heeled but was mouthing the bird and almost maybe trying to eat it.

3. He didnt want to give it up i had to pry it out while pinching his lips on his teeth with one hand.

4. I know he will need a few FF refreshers before hunting season, and im going to talk to my dad about his progress and what happened tonight.

5. But id like to know what you would do in a situation similar to this. Banks is a 9 month old lab, like i said he was just FF trained and was retrieving bumpers like a pro.
Thanks
Isaac and Banks

1. If you gave him the "FETCH" command and he didn't pick the bumper right up, that tells me that FF is not completed.
2. That tells me that the "HERE" command is not in place very well
3. Don't pry it out of his mouth -- just lift up on the flap of skin right in front of his hip -- with your other hand on the bird and giving him the "DROP" command.
4. Refreshers aren't the current answer -- FF needs to be completed --- did you FF with a dead bird -- did you FF with a live bird ? Did you reinforce FF with the ecollar -- did you do "Fetch- No Fetch" ?
5. Finish FF --- Finish obedience (the HERE command) -- Never use birds and bumpers in the same session.

I hope that I was helpful without being a jerk.

.

[Doc E]

He is not ff to me and i would start over, i have only ff two dogs so i am no expert but it sounds to me like some things may have been rushed.

That's certainly part of it -- but not only did the dog ignore the FETCH command, but also the HERE command as well as the DROP (give) command.
Seems to be a few holes in this training program.
.

[Double Shot Banks]

I am going to refresh the ff from stage one. I thought we should do it with birds like you all said but my dad is more old fashioned and wanted to just see what he does.

I am not sure how i can reinforce the here anymore than it is. He comes here 100% of the time without a distraction and theres no way i can create distractions to reinforce it that way.
Either way i am going to re-ff him,
Isaac and Banks

[Doc E]

I can't remember -- Is your dog ecollar conditioned ?

.

[Double Shot Banks]

I can't remember -- Is your dog ecollar conditioned ?

.

hes he is, we have been using the collar for a few months now. When he is done FF should i reinforce and teach him to fetch on the collar not the pinch?

[CDN_Cocker]

I don't know a whole lot about FF but it seems like you have went through the process awfully fast...

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I can't remember -- Is your dog ecollar conditioned ?

.

hes he is, we have been using the collar for a few months now. When he is done FF should i reinforce and teach him to fetch on the collar not the pinch?

Provided that the dog is properly conditioned with the e-collar, and its part of the ff program, you need to make a transition from the manual stimulus to the e-collar. Once the dog learns to turn stimulation off by responding to the command, there should no longer be a need for the manual (ear pinch) stimulus, except when introducing a new object such as a bird.

In answer to your bird question. Yes the ff needs to be completed with birds. Just because the dog ran out and picked up a bird before, doesn't mean he'll pick it up when you command him to.

I agree with the other posters that the recall command needs to be completed. If the recall command is not a conditioned response, it is not realistic to expect the dog to complete the retrieve on command.

Nate

[Doc E]

Yes he is, we have been using the collar for a few months now. When he is done FF should i reinforce and teach him to fetch on the collar not the pinch?

As I have mentioned before :
1. Teach (HOLD)
2. Enforce (ear pinch)
3. Reinforce (ecollar)

Just like Double Barrel said.

.

[Doc E]

I am not sure how i can reinforce the here anymore than it is.
Isaac and Banks

Teach (operant conditioning -- treats)
Enforce (check cord)
Reinforce (ecollar)

Those of us that follow SmartWork use ecollar to HERE at as little as 4 months of age.
HERE means Here -- distractions or not................... Then and only then is it 100%
.

[Double Shot Banks]

I am not sure how i can reinforce the here anymore than it is.
Isaac and Banks

Teach (operant conditioning -- treats)
Enforce (check cord)
Reinforce (ecollar)

Those of us that follow SmartWork use ecollar to HERE at as little as 4 months of age.
HERE means Here -- distractions or not................... Then and only then is it 100%
.

I have done all that to this point, but if he sees a rabbit and chases it or some new people in our yard or a dog i need to use the e-collar or he wont listen,

Any other time he is perfect.

[Doc E]

I have done all that to this point, but if he sees a rabbit and chases it or some new people in our yard or a dog i need to use the e-collar or he wont listen,

Any other time he is perfect.

Did you "ecollar to HERE" in your formal 'Here' training ?
Both without distractions and later on with distractions ?
.

[Doc E]

Your dog not wanting to give up the bird can evolve into a nasty problem -- anywhere from being sticky to as bad as freezing. These are both a BIG negative for a retriever.
To further explain DROP. This is with a Left-sided heeling dog.
When you dog returns to SIT at HEEL, reach down and take ahold of the bird with your right hand. With your left hand, lift up on the skin flap in front of the left hip -- while at the same time giving your DROP (give) command.

.

[campgsp]

Isaac,
Is banks retrieving anything you give him and releasing anything you give him? I mean anything...

What I have found is if you move on to birds to quickly it can set you back in your ff process.

I have a dog that wouldn't retrieve a bird for the life of it. She would run to it pick it apart and look at me like what you want this thing. Ick..
I did ff with her and hunting season was fast approaching. I wanted a bird dog ready. I rushed things, it wasn't so much that I rushed through the process, it was more I wanted a bird in her mouth and these dumb dummies gone for good.
Wouldn't you know I put that bird out I sent her for the retrieve and she picked that dang bird up and bring it back, man was I happy. Thought I was the god of ff'ing... Until she came back dropped that bird at my feet and gave me a look like we'll there you go. I grabbed that ear and made her pick it up. That's when I knew something was wrong. Went back to the table with the buck and I set myself back a couple weeks.
I knew my rush would hurt something but didn't stick in my head until I saw it. I missed a few weeks of season with her but I had her picking up everything and anything before I went back to even thinking about birds.
Just want to add that this bitch will not give up a search for a dead bird unless you shot her. She has been known to retrieve cripples that have flown 100 or more yards. "Fetch" is all it takes. Not trying to brag on the dog, just telling you what is possible if done right.

My point is when you have banks retrieve anything you put out for him, I don't care if it's a five lb dumbbell he should retrieve it on command and that means going to, coming back with, and dropping only on command "out" or whatever your using.
Don't rush yourself or the dog. Learn from our mistakes as we have all made more then a couple through the years, and know that their are many more seasons to come.

For "come" if you are still needing to use the collar to get him to respond with distractions don't worry about it. That said he's listening without the distractions. Use the distractions you can get to work on breaking that out. Just be as stern a then as you would without them. Patience is virtue in the dog world.

Your doing alright kid
Camp.

[Double Shot Banks]

Thanks for all the help