Will not give it up

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reba
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Will not give it up

Post by reba » Wed May 29, 2013 2:59 pm

My 6 month old female GSP LOVES to retrieve a thrown canvas bumper.

She goes after it full speed and brings it back ASAP.

HOWEVER once to my hand she does not want to give it up. I mean she even hangs on to it with her front feet and all her teeth. She is just crazy about the game. It's a great game because she will hunt for it if it lands out of sight.

How do I teach her to give it up once she has delivered. BTW shoving it back into to her does not work.

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Wed May 29, 2013 3:20 pm

If you want to use minimal force and keep it fun, try blowing in her nose and give your command to release. If it doesnt work within the first few tries then I would look for something else but dogs have a natural urge to release when air is blown in there nose.

I'm not talking full on mouth to snout recitation, just a quick pop from a few inches away.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by big_fish » Wed May 29, 2013 4:35 pm

with my labs I used treats in the beginning but dont reward any thing you don't want to happen later and if that didnt work a light flank pinch seemed to work but thats just me.
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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Neil » Wed May 29, 2013 4:55 pm

Just gentle grab the loose skin on her flank and pull up, the area where the leg meets the body. No pain, no struggle, they just drop it. I think it might tickle or something. It works.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by SCT » Wed May 29, 2013 5:15 pm

Neil wrote:Just gentle grab the loose skin on her flank and pull up, the area where the leg meets the body. No pain, no struggle, they just drop it. I think it might tickle or something. It works.
+1

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jwnissen
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Re: Will not give it up

Post by jwnissen » Wed May 29, 2013 5:33 pm

Mine does the same thing. I have tried everything and I can get her to give it to me but she doesn't want too. Treats work really well and does everything I have ever taught her on command if I have treats but wont do it once they are gone. Its driving me crazy!!!

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roaniecowpony
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Re: Will not give it up

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed May 29, 2013 5:57 pm

Transition the thing that works to the cue you want. The new cue is given followed by the old cue. With enough repetition, the dog will anticipate the old cue. Then you continue until you get reliability.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Neil » Wed May 29, 2013 6:40 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Transition the thing that works to the cue you want. The new cue is given followed by the old cue. With enough repetition, the dog will anticipate the old cue. Then you continue until you get reliability.
Huh, I do not follow, what is the old cue, the new cue? Honest, I really am smarter than most dogs, but I am often at a loss at these suggestions on this site.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed May 29, 2013 7:16 pm

Follow Neil's instructions,nothing more simple then that eventually you won't need to do that either. :D

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by brad27 » Wed May 29, 2013 7:19 pm

Neil wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Transition the thing that works to the cue you want. The new cue is given followed by the old cue. With enough repetition, the dog will anticipate the old cue. Then you continue until you get reliability.
Huh, I do not follow, what is the old cue, the new cue? Honest, I really am smarter than most dogs, but I am often at a loss at these suggestions on this site.
Neil, do you use a whistle? Same concept.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Neil » Wed May 29, 2013 7:31 pm

Uh, I am not a good example, I only use a whistle for GO. So I still don't understand.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by campgsp » Wed May 29, 2013 9:08 pm

Neil wrote:Uh, I am not a good example, I only use a whistle for GO. So I still don't understand.
Neil, I think they are talking about using treats and then transitioning them out with only using the command.atleast that's what I got from the quotes below. I know in field trailing the whistle is used to get the dog to go not come, but brad is saying overlaying come to whistle or woah etc. You transition the command to the whistle.
jwnissen wrote:Mine does the same thing. I have tried everything and I can get her to give it to me but she doesn't want too. Treats work really well and does everything I have ever taught her on command if I have treats but wont do it once they are gone. Its driving me crazy!!!
Neil wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Transition the thing that works to the cue you want. The new cue is given followed by the old cue. With enough repetition, the dog will anticipate the old cue. Then you continue until you get reliability.
Huh, I do not follow, what is the old cue, the new cue? Honest, I really am smarter than most dogs, but I am often at a loss at these suggestions on this site.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by ezzy333 » Wed May 29, 2013 10:05 pm

I am with Neil. No where did I see where a problem of getting the dog to come. And I have never seen anyone use a whistle to tell a dog to release a retrieved bird. I do know after years of experience there is one simple method to correct the problem. No tools, gimmicks, or cues really needed. Simply lift on the dogs flank. I have no idea why anyone has a problem grasping that. Simple, efficient, and no extra tools to lose or forget. Can't get much better than that.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by millerms06 » Thu May 30, 2013 7:13 am

Lifting on the flank is pretty much the best suggestion if your dog does not comply. I do not blend in the verbal command "give" simultaneously until the pup understands that lifting the skin means to release the object. Just lift the skin and do not say anything for a while. The pup will get the hint with a few repetitions. When the pup consistently complies, then you can say "give" while simultaneously lifting the skin. As the pup gets older, you will be using just a verbal cue so the dog has to know it means the same thing the easiest way possible.


A possibility with this process is the dog might revert to play keep away with you. As they mature, pups will test your control over them. Just when you think something is going right, something you don't want pops up :D. Hopefully, the checkcord is on the pup at all times...

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by reba » Thu May 30, 2013 8:20 am

WOW! Never heard of lifting of the flank.

THANKS!!!!

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Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu May 30, 2013 8:43 am

Just a little caution. Be careful not to get bit when lifting the flank. The reason they let go is because they want to nip at your hand.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by whoadog » Thu May 30, 2013 10:11 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Just a little caution. Be careful not to get bit when lifting the flank. The reason they let go is because they want to nip at your hand.
I have had a few start for my hand and my instinct was that they intended to nip as well. Timing is the important part of this part. As soon as the dog drops, let go of the flank skin. Then they immediately want to go back to the bird/bumper but it's too late. It's already in your hand and you are telling him what a good dog he is.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by crackerd » Thu May 30, 2013 11:13 am

whoadog wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Just a little caution. Be careful not to get bit when lifting the flank. The reason they let go is because they want to nip at your hand.
I have had a few start for my hand and my instinct was that they intended to nip as well. ...
Which is where blowing in the dog's ear comes in handy...handier I've found than grabbing a flank. A gundog's less likely to bite at something that's not painful, just distracting which is what blowing in the ear comes across as to the dog. Only qualifier is you better have a good read on your dog's temperament to know it's going to release a bird because it's startled rather than releasing it at the same time it's swinging its head around for your face.

MG

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Vonzeppelinkennels
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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu May 30, 2013 12:16 pm

I'm not sure about the nipping as I have dogs that you couldn't make bite you seems to be more of what the heck is that or a surprise & want to see what it is.I'm not saying some might bite or nip but I can't see where there is any pain involved by the handler if done right,after all you just lifting up on the flank skin not pinching,twisting,or anything that should cause any pain.
I don't understand where the pain idea is coming from??

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu May 30, 2013 12:58 pm

Its not so much an issue of pain but dogs have an inherent instinct to protect their flank. There are also "pressure" points in between all four legs.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Neil » Thu May 30, 2013 3:42 pm

I have never had one ever nip at me, were they we would have a conversation about how improper that action really is.

As an aside, some of you have rude dogs that don't respect you. HOF Buddy Smith says they must fear you, I don't totally agree, but mine best not bite me, even in reflex. Their world is going to change.

Perhaps it is how you do the flank lift, I do it very gently.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by mountaindogs » Thu May 30, 2013 4:08 pm

I have one doing keep away right now. You have the tools to fix this already instilled I'd say. You have a dog that LOVES TO FETCH. The game requires they give the bumper back. Here is what I would do.

1) choose a harder to hold on to item. No rope on the bumper and maybe look at the avery bumpers. They are solid hard and the dog is less able to squish it. (I have used a PVC pipe cut for one, but he eventually cracked it :roll: still its slick and hard to hold)
2) when the dog returns, offer the very best treat you have.
3) when the dog drops the bumper for the treat say your cue (If clicker trained, I'd mark with click then add cue later...) DROP and say it happily. It means treat. ( Soon it will mean Fetch again)
4) when your dog refuses and pulls back LET GO. Walk away or turn around. No DROP no more game.
5) with very stubborn dogs, I have been kown to make bacon, and offer it but if they refuse I just let go and sit down in a chair and eat the bacon. They usually come back to see and eventually they will want to try it if you offer it.
6) as soon as they give up bumper toss it again. Don't ask for much obedience just play. REWARD for DROP is FETCH again. The treat was a reward but from the beginning you need to instill a alternate. If your dog wants the game they will eventually give in and drop for the game. But the treat speeds this up for you.

You will find that this keep the bumper game was part of the game for them. They WANT TO PLAY that as much as you want them not to. SO make all other parts so fun and this part boring. YOu will probably have to turn away and ignore them alot at first. But if your dog is obssessed as you say, they will want the chase part more than anything.

7) end with dinner. Trade dinner or heavy snack in a bowl for the bumper at the end because you are not giving it back this time. Not throwing it again. So make the reward very memorable like mealtime.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by ezzy333 » Thu May 30, 2013 10:06 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Its not so much an issue of pain but dogs have an inherent instinct to protect their flank. There are also "pressure" points in between all four legs.
Never had a dog make any serious move towards my hand. Sure can't say it would never happen but it hasn't in the past and I see no reason it ever should. You aren't hurting the dog in any way and the dog has no reason to feel threatened so no need to protect it's flank or any other body part.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu May 30, 2013 10:12 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Its not so much an issue of pain but dogs have an inherent instinct to protect their flank. There are also "pressure" points in between all four legs.
Never had a dog make any serious move towards my hand. Sure can't say it would never happen but it hasn't in the past and I see no reason it ever should. You aren't hurting the dog in any way and the dog has no reason to feel threatened so no need to protect it's flank or any other body part.

Ezzy
please tell me where I stated anything about a dog making a "serious move" toward anyone.

I just stated facts..... Dogs defend their flanks and there are pressure points back there. Period, end of story.....

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by DonF » Fri May 31, 2013 6:14 am

Neil wrote:Just gentle grab the loose skin on her flank and pull up, the area where the leg meets the body. No pain, no struggle, they just drop it. I think it might tickle or something. It works.
Right on. I catch up the dog while I'm on one knee and pull it into me, do not grab at the bird. Then hold the collar underneath and with the other hand stroke the dog's side a few times. Last time you stroke, go to the flap of skin on the flank, hook with your finger's and lift a bit. At the same time the other hand lets go of the collar and goes to the object. I have seen just a couple dog's that doesn't work on, I think it iratates them and they reach back to remove your hand. To remove your hand, they have to first MTY their mouth. The object is in your hand, immediately straighten out your finger's. Two or three time's and that's usually it. Works like magic on about 99.9% of the dogs.
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Re: Will not give it up

Post by reba » Fri May 31, 2013 8:41 am

The flank pull worked great!!

It did nothing to change her drive to retrieve.

I am training to Whoa and Recall on the whistle.

Pure fun and games at six months.

GOOD STUFF!

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by ezzy333 » Fri May 31, 2013 9:29 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Its not so much an issue of pain but dogs have an inherent instinct to protect their flank. There are also "pressure" points in between all four legs.
Never had a dog make any serious move towards my hand. Sure can't say it would never happen but it hasn't in the past and I see no reason it ever should. You aren't hurting the dog in any way and the dog has no reason to feel threatened so no need to protect it's flank or any other body part.

Ezzy
please tell me where I stated anything about a dog making a "serious move" toward anyone.

I just stated facts..... Dogs defend their flanks and there are pressure points back there. Period, end of story.....

Please tell me where I said you did?

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Will not give it up

Post by millerms06 » Fri May 31, 2013 11:46 am

reba wrote:The flank pull worked great!!

It did nothing to change her drive to retrieve.

I am training to Whoa and Recall on the whistle.

Pure fun and games at six months.

GOOD STUFF!
Awesome!! All good stuff indeed!!

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