Collar question

[Munster]

So, I have a tri tronics pro 200 and I am at the point of over laying hte collar on my FF. I wanted to test the level that I would be using on myself( 1 continuous) I noticed that at one point the stimulation was very light and then at another moment it was very hot.

Not sure if this i common or if anyone else has had this issue. Makes me wary about using it on the pup now.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Sounds like your collar isn't working correctly.

Doug

[roaniecowpony]

My recommendation is for you to post your question over on the Tritronics forum. "Foghorn" is the moderator and Tritronics rep.

You could also put a voltmeter on it. But it'll appear to dance around a lot in voltage. I think that's just a misreading of the pulsed "continuous" stim.

I have a Pro 100 which I believe is the opposite of the 200 regarding continuous/momentary. The 100 has the upper stim button as a "medium momentary" stim. I believe the 200 upper button is "medium continuous". The other two buttons below that are momentary low and medium, right? So you only have 6 levels of "medium continuous" on that collar. A "medium" level 1 is about twice the voltage of a low 1.

[Coveyrise64]

The continious on a Pro 200 is always a high stimulation at the desired dial setting. On my pro 500 I can't even feel a High 1 so the sensitivity will likely vary between individuals. The amount of stimulation felt can probably vary because of the location and amount of pressure applied to the prongs. That is why they suggest the collar be snug on the dogs neck (consistent contact with the skin) and one reason I normally use the longer prongs even on my short haired dogs. When I need a correction I want a stimulation. The Pro 200 isn't the unit I like to use for FF or recall but will work if that is what you have. I think you're trying to split hairs, find the proper level of stimulation your dog responds to not how much stimulation you feel.

And you can't use a voltmeter to check the voltage levels......not the same type (waveshape) of voltage coming out of your wall outlet.

cr

So, I have a tri tronics pro 200 and I am at the point of over laying hte collar on my FF. I wanted to test the level that I would be using on myself( 1 continuous) I noticed that at one point the stimulation was very light and then at another moment it was very hot.

Not sure if this i common or if anyone else has had this issue. Makes me wary about using it on the pup now.

[Munster]

The continious on a Pro 200 is always a high stimulation at the desired dial setting. On my pro 500 I can't even feel a High 1 so the sensitivity will likely vary between individuals. The amount of stimulation felt can probably vary because of the location and amount of pressure applied to the prongs. That is why they suggest the collar be snug on the dogs neck (consistent contact with the skin) and one reason I normally use the longer prongs even on my short haired dogs. When I need a correction I want a stimulation. The Pro 200 isn't the unit I like to use for FF or recall but will work if that is what you have. I think you're trying to split hairs, find the proper level of stimulation your dog responds to not how much stimulation you feel.

And you can't use a voltmeter to check the voltage levels......not the same type (waveshape) of voltage coming out of your wall outlet.

cr

So, I have a tri tronics pro 200 and I am at the point of over laying hte collar on my FF. I wanted to test the level that I would be using on myself( 1 continuous) I noticed that at one point the stimulation was very light and then at another moment it was very hot.

Not sure if this i common or if anyone else has had this issue. Makes me wary about using it on the pup now.

I very well could be splitting hairs. Never said I was a pro at this I just want to know what the dog is feeling and that i am being fair. Now that you mentioned it, I could have been holding the collar loosely one one stim and tighter on the other, this would probably produce the inconsistency.
I am making sure everything is charged up and going to try it again in a few hours..

Thanks

[Francois P vd Walt]

Sounds like your collar isn't working correctly.

Doug

+1 Read maual or have it checked out

[roaniecowpony]

munster,
If your Pro 200 has the same voltages as the Pro 100 at the High button, you are stimulating with about 15 volts as shown in the chart below. If that's the case, I'd not use the High-Continuous button (any dial setting) for transitioning the FF. But my chart could be all wrong as some have suggested. Those folks probably have better data they can share.

If I were stuck with the Pro 200 as my only collar, I would use the low and medium momentary stim buttons and pump them. If money isn't an issue, go out a buy a DT Systems 2420 and you can cover the flexibility of the Pro 500 and more and do it with finer control down near the bottom.

[ezzy333]

The continious on a Pro 200 is always a high stimulation at the desired dial setting. On my pro 500 I can't even feel a High 1 so the sensitivity will likely vary between individuals. The amount of stimulation felt can probably vary because of the location and amount of pressure applied to the prongs. That is why they suggest the collar be snug on the dogs neck (consistent contact with the skin) and one reason I normally use the longer prongs even on my short haired dogs. When I need a correction I want a stimulation. The Pro 200 isn't the unit I like to use for FF or recall but will work if that is what you have. I think you're trying to split hairs, find the proper level of stimulation your dog responds to not how much stimulation you feel.

And you can't use a voltmeter to check the voltage levels......not the same type (waveshape) of voltage coming out of your wall outlet.

cr

So, I have a tri tronics pro 200 and I am at the point of over laying hte collar on my FF. I wanted to test the level that I would be using on myself( 1 continuous) I noticed that at one point the stimulation was very light and then at another moment it was very hot.

Not sure if this i common or if anyone else has had this issue. Makes me wary about using it on the pup now.

Right on.

Ezzy

[Coveyrise64]

I very well could be splitting hairs. Never said I was a pro at this I just want to know what the dog is feeling and that i am being fair. Now that you mentioned it, I could have been holding the collar loosely one one stim and tighter on the other, this would probably produce the inconsistency.
I am making sure everything is charged up and going to try it again in a few hours..

Thanks

If you contacted the points with callused finger tips you would probably feel a different level of sensation than you would if the points were placed in the palm or against your neck. The same with dry or moist skin. That's beside the point. A dog has much tougher skin than a human. Who’s to say a dog feels the same sensation on a High 1 that you do. Even that can vary between dogs. The very reason most mfg. and pro dvds recommend finding the proper level of stimulation for each individual dog.

Since you are working on FF, instead of being fair let’s be honest......do you apply the exact same amount of ear pressure each time? Does it vary, probably! Does two treats work better than one? Pro or not, if your looking for an excuse you probably found one......

cr

[roaniecowpony]

To further support what CR said about what people feel or don't feel, I watched Hickox pass a collar around a dozen people in a few classes over the years. Some people could feel a 1 or 2, some couldn't feel anything up to a 9...on a DT Systems 2420. But the average person was able to feel about a 3-4. People have different level sensitivity and also different levels of conductivity. Most of the dogs I've seen with a 2420 or worked myself with a 2420 could feel a 1-3. I haven't seen one that didn't feel a 3, but I've only seen a dozen or two with that collar. But a high 1 on a TT is a pretty good little jolt. Not what I'd call "light pressure"

[Coveyrise64]

To further support what CR said about what people feel or don't feel, I watched Hickox pass a collar around a dozen people in a few classes over the years. Some people could feel a 1 or 2, some couldn't feel anything up to a 9...on a DT Systems 2420. But the average person was able to feel about a 3-4. People have different level sensitivity and also different levels of conductivity. Most of the dogs I've seen with a 2420 or worked myself with a 2420 could feel a 1-3. I haven't seen one that didn't feel a 3, but I've only seen a dozen or two with that collar. But a high 1 on a TT is a pretty good little jolt. Not what I'd call "light pressure"

You can't quantify the intensity by using a standard voltmeter. Yes, you are getting a reading but what does it mean. I could barely feel a high one so hardly a jolt. You might as well be using a tire gauge.....

Like ezzy said:

What is the concern about the voltage of a collar? I must be out of it somehow since all I need to know is what setting the dog can feel that allows you to use it. I have checked it on my arm and I know it works. I then put it on the dog and see where it needs to be set for each dog. From that point on the setting rarely if ever gets changed. So far on my Dogtra I have used 1, 2, and 3. One is too weak, 2 works pretty well for both, and occasionally I have had to go up to 3 for one of the dogs. Mine has 10 settings which is about 6 more than needed, the range is OK, and the overall quality seems to be good. But I have no idea what the voltage is.

This isn't rocket science...... :roll:

[roaniecowpony]

The primary stimlus of an e-collar is voltage. Its not rocket science, but it is science and physics.

[Coveyrise64]

Yes it is science and physics. So you sure it isn't milliamperes and if it's a voltage; is it a squarewave, sawtooth, or traingle voltage? You can't accurately measure a non-sinusoidal voltage or current with a standard voltmeter. It doesn't work that way and never will. Therefore the numbers you posted are irrelevant to the application.

One is the lowest setting and 6 is the highest, find one that works. It's that simple...... :roll:

cr

The primary stimlus of an e-collar is voltage. Its not rocket science, but it is science and physics.

[roaniecowpony]

Therefore the numbers you posted are irrelevant to the application.

Are you sure? Why do you say that? How do you know?

[Ms. Cage]

So you sure it isn't milliamperes and if it's a voltage; is it a squarewave, sawtooth, or traingle voltage?

We've always been told it's milliamperes. Which is it Terry?

[Coveyrise64]

So you sure it isn't milliamperes and if it's a voltage; is it a squarewave, sawtooth, or traingle voltage?

We've always been told it's milliamperes. Which is it Terry?

Basically it is a combination of both. With an e-collar the electric shock occurs when a source of electricity (voltage)comes in contact with the body and causes a sufficient current (could be milliamperes or even lower microamperes) to flow through the skin or muscles. There are several factors (moisture content of the skin or the amount of hair are a couple) that can influence the amount of electrical resistance between the contact points. The more resistance the higher dial setting (voltage) required to produce sufficient current between the contact points to create a shock.

Therefore the numbers you posted are irrelevant to the application.

Are you sure? Why do you say that? How do you know?

Yes, I'm sure.....!

I've already told you three times....the test meter you are using is designed to measure 60cyle sinusoidal voltages not some other electronically generated sinewave of an unknown frequency. Again, and I'll go real slow......if they aren't accurate how can they be relevant?

Because I worked in the electrical industry for 40yrs and I've been using an ecollar for 30yrs.

cr

[birddogger]

One is the lowest setting and 6 is the highest, find one that works. It's that simple......

cr

+1! And is basically what I said in an earlier post.....that it is being made out to be way too complicated, when in reality, there is nothing at all complicated about it. You just simply don't need any type of chart or be an engineer to use any of the popular e-collars proficiently at a proper setting and you don't need a hundred different levels to do it. IMO, some are a little more user friendly than others, but then, that goes back to personal preference. So, as cr said, it really is just that simple!

Charlie

[ezzy333]

The primary stimlus of an e-collar is voltage. Its not rocket science, but it is science and physics.

Never had a dog interested in either subject. An I doubt if either would have resulted in a better dog.

Ezzy

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

To further support what CR said about what people feel or don't feel, I watched Hickox pass a collar around a dozen people in a few classes over the years. Some people could feel a 1 or 2, some couldn't feel anything up to a 9...on a DT Systems 2420. But the average person was able to feel about a 3-4. People have different level sensitivity and also different levels of conductivity. Most of the dogs I've seen with a 2420 or worked myself with a 2420 could feel a 1-3. I haven't seen one that didn't feel a 3, but I've only seen a dozen or two with that collar. But a high 1 on a TT is a pretty good little jolt. Not what I'd call "light pressure"

Its obvious that there are some unknowns to exactly what dogs feel and respond to in concern to electronic collar stimulation. Regardless of how you want to measure stimulation or the value of it, one thing seems clear: There are considerable inconsistencies in many brands of e-collars. Although there are some unrelated issues with the DT Systems e-collars, the progressive increase in stimulation levels is far more consistent than that of Tritronics e-collars.

Nate

[RayGubernat]

To further support what CR said about what people feel or don't feel, I watched Hickox pass a collar around a dozen people in a few classes over the years. Some people could feel a 1 or 2, some couldn't feel anything up to a 9...on a DT Systems 2420. But the average person was able to feel about a 3-4. People have different level sensitivity and also different levels of conductivity. Most of the dogs I've seen with a 2420 or worked myself with a 2420 could feel a 1-3. I haven't seen one that didn't feel a 3, but I've only seen a dozen or two with that collar. But a high 1 on a TT is a pretty good little jolt. Not what I'd call "light pressure"

Its obvious that there are some unknowns to exactly what dogs feel and respond to in concern to electronic collar stimulation. Regardless of how you want to measure stimulation or the value of it, one thing seems clear: There are considerable inconsistencies in many brands of e-collars. Although there are some unrelated issues with the DT Systems e-collars, the progressive increase in stimulation levels is far more consistent than that of Tritronics e-collars.

Nate

I think you may be e incorrect about the progressive nature of the stim levels on TT collars. I have placed my collar on the back of my hand and also on my neck and I can feel a definite increment in stim level as I go from one to four on my neck. I went to a five on the back of my hand but there is no way I would do that on my neck. 5 stings.

It is just that that whole line of reasoning is pretty irrelevant. It makes very little difference if the stim levels are nice and evenly spaced in actual practice. You test your dog's response to the e-collar by starting at the lowest level and seeing if the dog gives a response to the stim, typically a momentary stim, in my case. if it does, then you are pretty much done. You know that the dog feels the stim and (should ) understand that the stim means comply RIGHT NOW with the instruction that was given immediately prior to the stim.

If the dog does not comply, you DO NOT turn the stim up a little and stim again. WHY?? Because the dog just flipped you off. If you don't wish to encourage the dog to flip you off in the future, you issue a meaningful correction. To put it in verbal tems, you asked the dog nicely and when it didn't comply, you asked in a firm voice. If the dog still refuses to comply, you don't just raise your voice a little...you holler...LOUD. With the e-collar you turn it up a bunch(2-3 levels) and then hit the dog with a high hard one for up to the full eight seconds. Is it unpleasant for the dog? You betcha. THAT is PRECISELY the plan. The next time the dog thinks about flipping you off and feels that low intensity stim...the dog knows what will come next and that it ain't no fun. It will usually decide that it should take the path of least resistance and do what you ask, the first time you ask. Over time, the dog will get in the habit of doing what you ask the first time you ask and that level of repsonse will become the norm, the habit. That, to me, is how training should go.

RayG







RayG

[birddogger]

Good post Ray.

Charlie

[Munster]

I very well could be splitting hairs. Never said I was a pro at this I just want to know what the dog is feeling and that i am being fair. Now that you mentioned it, I could have been holding the collar loosely one one stim and tighter on the other, this would probably produce the inconsistency.
I am making sure everything is charged up and going to try it again in a few hours..

Thanks

Since you are working on FF, instead of being fair let’s be honest......do you apply the exact same amount of ear pressure each time? Does it vary, probably! Does two treats work better than one? Pro or not, if your looking for an excuse you probably found one......

cr

You are correct on the ear pinch thing. You have to remember I am trying to work this out the best I can. This is my second dog and I am not sure that the success of my first was due to him being just a great dog. I never said I was a pro.

As far as Excuses go this comes to mind
"Excuses are monuments of nothingness. They build bridges to nowhere. Those who use these tools of incompetence are masters of nothingness."

I am not making excuses, rather realizing that I am just not comfortable with overlaying the collar for some reason. Im going to give it another couple of days and see ho wit goes. But as of now, I think 1 cont. is to much for her as I have gotten further with just an ear pinch then the collar. I dont know.

[Coveyrise64]

You are correct on the ear pinch thing. You have to remember I am trying to work this out the best I can. This is my second dog and I am not sure that the success of my first was due to him being just a great dog. I never said I was a pro.

As far as Excuses go this comes to mind
"Excuses are monuments of nothingness. They build bridges to nowhere. Those who use these tools of incompetence are masters of nothingness."

I am not making excuses, rather realizing that I am just not comfortable with overlaying the collar for some reason. Im going to give it another couple of days and see ho wit goes. But as of now, I think 1 cont. is to much for her as I have gotten further with just an ear pinch then the collar. I dont know.

FF is hardly ever fun for you or the dog and in some cases it can be an unpleasant experience. Nobody said you had to FF, if that is the route you want to go but don't feel comfortable with the process then have someone else finish the job. You can second guess your success all day. In most cases it is a superior dog, the good ones always figure out a way to overcome our mistakes. To become an accomplished trainer though you have to be a better student than your dog. I did take the opportunity to underline your excuses though......

cr

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

To further support what CR said about what people feel or don't feel, I watched Hickox pass a collar around a dozen people in a few classes over the years. Some people could feel a 1 or 2, some couldn't feel anything up to a 9...on a DT Systems 2420. But the average person was able to feel about a 3-4. People have different level sensitivity and also different levels of conductivity. Most of the dogs I've seen with a 2420 or worked myself with a 2420 could feel a 1-3. I haven't seen one that didn't feel a 3, but I've only seen a dozen or two with that collar. But a high 1 on a TT is a pretty good little jolt. Not what I'd call "light pressure"

Its obvious that there are some unknowns to exactly what dogs feel and respond to in concern to electronic collar stimulation. Regardless of how you want to measure stimulation or the value of it, one thing seems clear: There are considerable inconsistencies in many brands of e-collars. Although there are some unrelated issues with the DT Systems e-collars, the progressive increase in stimulation levels is far more consistent than that of Tritronics e-collars.

Nate

I think you may be e incorrect about the progressive nature of the stim levels on TT collars. I have placed my collar on the back of my hand and also on my neck and I can feel a definite increment in stim level as I go from one to four on my neck. I went to a five on the back of my hand but there is no way I would do that on my neck. 5 stings.

It is just that that whole line of reasoning is pretty irrelevant. It makes very little difference if the stim levels are nice and evenly spaced in actual practice. You test your dog's response to the e-collar by starting at the lowest level and seeing if the dog gives a response to the stim, typically a momentary stim, in my case. if it does, then you are pretty much done. You know that the dog feels the stim and (should ) understand that the stim means comply RIGHT NOW with the instruction that was given immediately prior to the stim.

That is my point. Many e-collars do not have enough low levels of stimulation to establish the lowest level the dog can feel. [/color]

If the dog does not comply, you DO NOT turn the stim up a little and stim again. WHY?? Because the dog just flipped you off. If you don't wish to encourage the dog to flip you off in the future, you issue a meaningful correction.

I agree. I use the low level that the dog feels to notify the dog. It is followed by a higher level of stimulation. This is why the DT's "jump" feature works so well.

To put it in verbal tems, you asked the dog nicely and when it didn't comply, you asked in a firm voice. If the dog still refuses to comply, you don't just raise your voice a little...you holler...LOUD. With the e-collar you turn it up a bunch(2-3 levels) and then hit the dog with a high hard one for up to the full eight seconds. Is it unpleasant for the dog? You betcha. THAT is PRECISELY the plan. The next time the dog thinks about flipping you off and feels that low intensity stim...the dog knows what will come next and that it ain't no fun. It will usually decide that it should take the path of least resistance and do what you ask, the first time you ask. Over time, the dog will get in the habit of doing what you ask the first time you ask and that level of repsonse will become the norm, the habit. That, to me, is how training should go.

RayG

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and yes I understand how a conditioned response works. I'm just saying that all e-collar systems could use some improvement in various ways. That said, most e-collars have improved significantly within the past few years. Garmin/Tritronics, DT, Dogtra, Sportdog or what ever system you use, will undoubtedly all be very different products within a few more years. New technology and consumer demand will see to that.

Nate






RayG

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I just want to know what the dog is feeling and that i am being fair.

I am not making excuses, rather realizing that I am just not comfortable with overlaying the collar for some reason. Im going to give it another couple of days and see ho wit goes. But as of now, I think 1 cont. is to much for her as I have gotten further with just an ear pinch then the collar. I dont know.

I'm curious as to how you determined the dog's lowest level of stimulation. There are various methods of training, and different approaches to the ff. However, I've never heard of a training method where the e-collar was not introduced prior to ff training.

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

Nate,
Just a comment about the "notify/correct" method...

I was using a low notify and a jump "correction" that I thought was adequate based on what George's guidance suggested. In practice, when the dog disobeyed a command, I would "notify" and follow with a jump "correction". My jump "correction" was just below the vocalization level.

With my Lab, this method seemed very effective. When I got the pointer, I noted on a number of occasions that the dog would continue to disobey the command. On my way to George's class in Idaho last summer, I stopped in an nice field to let the dogs out and run. The pointer was running big as usual and headed toward a treeline of heavy forest. I whistled her for a recall and she ignored it, I "notified" and "corrected" and she ignored it as well. She continued into the treeline and I did not follow up with any further corrections.

When I had this discussion with George, at the class, as to whether to push the correction level up, he said I should "pump" the jump "correction" button until I got compliance, rather than crank the levels up to get compliance on a single jump "correction". He also said that I should vary the rate of the pumping of the jump button while watching for compliance. Continuing to disobey would warrant faster rates. I've incorporated that into my use of the collar and it's been working for me very well. The logic of it, at least my opinion, is that it follows what George teaches the dog in his collar conditioning. That is: the dog is taught to turn the collar off, he needs to comply (go in the kennel on the "kennel" command). You give him the problem that the collar is hurting him and thru his collar conditioning training, he knows that compliance will stop the hurt from continuing (continue to pump the jump button until you get compliance) .

With my dog, that was trained by George, just bumping up the stimulation level to get compliance on a single correction, just doesn't work out well. If I pound the dog with that much stimulation in a single correction, it will often shut her down. Her style and boldness suffer for a time. Using the pump method has resulted in the dog needing less and less correction to the point I can go out hunting and not have to correct her.

[RayGubernat]

I just want to know what the dog is feeling and that i am being fair.

I am not making excuses, rather realizing that I am just not comfortable with overlaying the collar for some reason. Im going to give it another couple of days and see ho wit goes. But as of now, I think 1 cont. is to much for her as I have gotten further with just an ear pinch then the collar. I dont know.

I'm curious as to how you determined the dog's lowest level of stimulation. There are various methods of training, and different approaches to the ff. However, I've never heard of a training method where the e-collar was not introduced prior to ff training.

Nate

Nate/Roanie-

I am not very familiar with current Hickox methods. I seem to remember years ago that he was doing avoidance type training and using things like place boards. Never tried either.

I don't know about anyone else, but I turn the collar on and check it for function. Then I strap the collar on the young dog's neck, cinch it up tight and let the dog run around a while. When the dog is moving around normally, I will do a momentary on 1. Most often, the dog lets me know immediately with their body language, that they felt the stim. A TT on level one is a pretty low level stim. I can barely feel it on the back of my hand and get just slightly more sensation when on my neck.

Is it the lowest level stim the dog can feel? Probably not, but who cares? It is pretty low, does not cause the dog any pain and the dog most definitely can feel it. That's close enough.

You stated that some dogs may lose style for a period of time if they get nailed with a high level stim. Again, I say: "So What?"

If my dog just gave me the 'ol fazoole. THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. The dog needs to understand that commands MUST be obeyed or there is a price to pay AND that the price is high....like a 4 kind of high... and THAT stings. if it sulks or shuts down for a while, so be it. I'll just keep walking. It'll get over it. Or not. Up to the dog. They did it to themselves, they gotta work through it if they want to hunt with me.

The way I see it, the dog screwed up big time by blowing me off. The dog knows darn well what it did wrong because the training was in place and it chose to ignore its training. The dog NOW knows what will happen each and every time it repeats that same mistake of ignoring me.

The thing about giving the dog a high hard one is this...if you do it right and do it the very first time the dog blows you off, you may never have to do it again, or at least not for a looooong time. Just like breaking a dog off deer. One time may be all you need.

THEY REMEMBER what worked and what didn't work.

RayG

[roaniecowpony]

Ray,
Years ago, I chose to go to a Hickox class. I've gone to them a few times over the years. I've followed his methods (as well as I could ) rather than mixing things from others. I think that's also been a prominent recommendation of this forum membership: 'pick a program and follow it'.

I realize that there are probably others out there that are as accomplished or maybe more so than Hickox, such as the Smiths, Lardy, Graham, Tracey, etc, and possibly members of this forum or even yourself. But, I picked a program, tried to learn most of it and why he does things a particular way and not another, and I even bought a dog trained by him in that program. When I follow his methods correctly, it works for me and the dog and works very well.

[Maurice]

Roanie I enjoy your posts. You are smart to stick with the program your dog was trained by. I don't agree with some of it but that's alright too imo ..

Mo

[Stoneface]

Munster, TT has gone to a quarky kind of battery. I had a similar issue. The newer generation batteries are meant to be on the charger 24/7 except when being used for running dogs. As a consequence, if you run a battery down because you took a trip and didn't charge the collars, you can't just leave the collars on the charger for a day and have them fully charged. They will only charge about 15% at a time. What I did was put them on the charger and every single time I walked past them I unplugged the chargers then plugged them all back in. After a week the chargers were like new and haven't had an issue since. I don't know what in the world would possess TT to do this, but I am selling my Classic 70 with three receivers and buying a Dogtra, if you know anyone who's interested.

[Coveyrise64]

I'm in a different camp when it comes to training. Finding and staying with a program sounds like good advice if it works. When it doesn't work is the reason many fail at training their own dog. Most can't train like the professional seminar they attended or the dvd they watched; they can't read the dogs as effectively, don't have the equipment, a helper, or other resourses (birds) readily available. When the wheels fall off they're lost and then turn to the internet...... :roll:

I preferred to learn as many different methods as possible (pointing dogs and retrievers) and take what fits my needs and dog. Except for a few NAVHDA training days I normally train by myself, I had to adapt. At least if a wheel falls off now it isn't all four.

Been fortunate to learn from some of the best. Don't always agree with their methods but if there's one thing that I could take home it was worth the time and expense.

cr

[RayGubernat]

Ray,
Years ago, I chose to go to a Hickox class. I've gone to them a few times over the years. I've followed his methods (as well as I could ) rather than mixing things from others. I think that's also been a prominent recommendation of this forum membership: 'pick a program and follow it'.

I realize that there are probably others out there that are as accomplished or maybe more so than Hickox, such as the Smiths, Lardy, Graham, Tracey, etc, and possibly members of this forum or even yourself. But, I picked a program, tried to learn most of it and why he does things a particular way and not another, and I even bought a dog trained by him in that program. When I follow his methods correctly, it works for me and the dog and works very well.

I echo Maurice's comments. If his methods feel right to you, if you are comfortable using them and they give you the results you want, then stay with them, by all means.

You will also note that I said if MY dog blew me off.... There is a good reason for that.

My expectations of my dogs might be different than yours.The type of dog I prefer and how I bring my dogs along might also be quite different. So I try to keep my comments within the realm of what I would do or have done, with my own dogs in a given circumstance.

One of the absolutely invaluable aspects of BB's like this one is the wide range of experience available here. With so many different ways of getting from here to there with a dog there is always opportunity for discussion and to learn about another way.

For instance, I will, in all likelihood, never employ clicker training, but I do, nevertheless, find it interesting to hear the details of about how it is done from a practitioner.

RayG

[Chukar12]

I'm in a different camp when it comes to training. Finding and staying with a program sounds like good advice if it works. When it doesn't work is the reason many fail at training their own dog. Most can't train like the professional seminar they attended or the dvd they watched; they can't read the dogs as effectively, don't have the equipment, a helper, or other resourses (birds) readily available. When the wheels fall off they're lost and then turn to the internet...... :roll:

I preferred to learn as many different methods as possible (pointing dogs and retrievers) and take what fits my needs and dog. Except for a few NAVHDA training days I normally train by myself, I had to adapt. At least if a wheel falls off now it isn't all four.

Been fortunate to learn from some of the best. Don't always agree with their methods but if there's one thing that I could take home it was worth the time and expense.

cr

I always wanted to do this... +1
Thanks Coveyrise...good points

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Ray,
Years ago, I chose to go to a Hickox class. I've gone to them a few times over the years. I've followed his methods (as well as I could ) rather than mixing things from others. I think that's also been a prominent recommendation of this forum membership: 'pick a program and follow it'.

I realize that there are probably others out there that are as accomplished or maybe more so than Hickox, such as the Smiths, Lardy, Graham, Tracey, etc, and possibly members of this forum or even yourself. But, I picked a program, tried to learn most of it and why he does things a particular way and not another, and I even bought a dog trained by him in that program. When I follow his methods correctly, it works for me and the dog and works very well.

I echo Maurice's comments. If his methods feel right to you, if you are comfortable using them and they give you the results you want, then stay with them, by all means.

You will also note that I said if MY dog blew me off.... There is a good reason for that.

My expectations of my dogs might be different than yours.The type of dog I prefer and how I bring my dogs along might also be quite different. So I try to keep my comments within the realm of what I would do or have done, with my own dogs in a given circumstance.

One of the absolutely invaluable aspects of BB's like this one is the wide range of experience available here. With so many different ways of getting from here to there with a dog there is always opportunity for discussion and to learn about another way.

For instance, I will, in all likelihood, never employ clicker training, but I do, nevertheless, find it interesting to hear the details of about how it is done from a practitioner.

RayG

Fair enough.

If everyone had the same breed of dog and used the same training methods, we'd have nothing left to argue about. Well...at least in theory.

Nate