chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Swagg
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chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Swagg » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:54 am

I suppose you could call it self hunting, but my ESS will go crazy chasing anything that is flying over around or near the yard. anyone else have a dog like this? How and what can i do to stop this i personally cant stand it :D

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:15 am

Swagg wrote:I suppose you could call it self hunting, but my ESS will go crazy chasing anything that is flying over around or near the yard. anyone else have a dog like this? How and what can i do to stop this i personally cant stand it :D

Many, most would like to have your problem. I have a play area where the dogs are free to do as they wish, if you don't have the space or funds, you are going to have to accept it or not let him off lead.

I don't think it a good match, unless you have no plans to hunt him. Then you could trash break him off all birds, but I doubt he will adjust well, he is a hunter, and if he is hunting in his yard within your sight, he is not a self hunter. I have seen about 20%. That if hunted hard lose interest in tweety birds.

But if bothers you that much, you would be better off without any breed of dog, even non-sporting breeds chase things in their yard.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Swagg » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:25 am

So you saying this isnt a bad problem ? I always figured it was bad for hunting purposes as she is supposed to flush not chase already flying birds. As for the space i live on a small farm and she has two acres under fence. I never really thought of it as she is so birdy that even tweety birds get her going.... :mrgreen:

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:01 am

Swagg wrote:So you saying this isnt a bad problem ? I always figured it was bad for hunting purposes as she is supposed to flush not chase already flying birds. As for the space i live on a small farm and she has two acres under fence. I never really thought of it as she is so birdy that even tweety birds get her going.... :mrgreen:
I am saying it is not a problem at all for a pup up to 18 months. She will learn to hunt game birds in the field, let her play in her yard. I feed birds and squirrels in my yard, they exercise them and themselves in theirs.

She and you need to differentiate between hunting and play. She will need to be trained to ignore flying birds, hup to flushed ones and the gun when hunting.

I should have asked her age and Doc is going to rightly ask what training model you are using.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:44 am

Swagg wrote:I suppose you could call it self hunting, but my ESS will go crazy chasing anything that is flying over around or near the yard. anyone else have a dog like this? How and what can i do to stop this i personally cant stand it :D
Doesn't sound like a bad thing at all. You can use these birds to work on steadiness if you wanted. But sounds like your dog has a ton of drive and that's what you want :D

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by ruffbritt4 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:22 pm

I will let my Brittany find all the birds around the yard, but he has to stand steady after they fly.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:14 pm

ruffbritt4 wrote:I will let my Brittany find all the birds around the yard, but he has to stand steady after they fly.

You have them honor the flight of non-game birds when they are playing in the yard?

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by SCT » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:42 pm

I wouldn't have a dog that didn't do that. It's just a healthy prey drive. They need exposure to lots of different moving things so they can eventually figure out what life is about.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:05 pm

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chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by cmc274 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:13 pm

If you make them stand them, they are going to start pointing them and you're also going to haves dog standing around on a bunch of STFs. Not very useful dog to me. To each their own.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:21 pm

campgsp wrote:
Neil wrote:
ruffbritt4 wrote:I will let my Brittany find all the birds around the yard, but he has to stand steady after they fly.

You have them honor the flight of non-game birds when they are playing in the yard?
I know for hunt tests a dog needs to honor any bird that "flushes wild" so to say..
If your getting ready to enter tests I don't see this as a bad thing puppies are another thing. I'll allow them to chase but once I've started steadying them up I'm not so lenient. with that said,
Dogs do most of the time know the difference between yard and field though. fun or business in other words so your really not hurting anything either way.
That is not true, they only have to stopt to flush on game birds.

Neil

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:22 pm

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:26 pm

campgsp wrote:
cmc274 wrote:If you make them stand them, they are going to start pointing them and you're also going to haves dog standing around on a bunch of STFs. Not very useful dog to me. To each their own.
I don't know, seems to me that every pup I ever had sight pointed birds in the yard and they never grew up pointing them later on. I'm not even sure, heck never even heard of a dog going out and pointing sparrows on a hunt. Do non game birds even have scent? If my dogs were sight pointing after all my training something would be really wrong... Im after a nose not eyes. :mrgreen:
I think you are after both if you expect a stop after a flush.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:28 pm

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:30 pm

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by brad27 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:00 pm

I must be mistaken. but a meadow lark is not a game bird and you will be called on a delay of chase if one does go up. I bet money on it.
If one does go up and the dog chases? Or, if one does go up and the dog acts like nothing happened and continues forward?

If the latter, sounds like you need better judges.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:12 pm

campgsp wrote:.
That is not true, they only have to stopt to flush on game birds.

Neil[/quote]

I must be mistaken. :roll: but a meadow lark is not a game bird and you will be called on a delay of chase if one does go up. I bet money on it.[/quote]

I will take that bet. And I think you mean delayed chase, not delay of chase. The judged must have mistaken the meadow lark for a quail. The rules are clear.

And good dogs learn to use all their senses to point; scent, sight, and sound. Well hopefully not touch and taste.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:37 pm

I see a young dog having fun that is also important, you cannot train all the time. The pup must have puppy time to play & work things out they soon learn the cannot catch the "bleep" birds. When training I agree be in control and consistant with commands when pup is @ home playing you might not be consistant with commands because you not always there and this will bring other problems into training later. My 2c

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:02 pm

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:17 am

First, you are quoting from Pointing Dog Hunting Tests, the OP is about a ESS, an English Springer Spaniel, and would come under Spaniel Hunting Test Rules, which defines the birds to be used a number of times, as pheasant, chuker, and partridge, although discouraged, pigeons can be used in JH.

But you, your friends, and the judges are wrong about Pointing Dog Hunting Test Rules. In the glossary, near the end they define "Game as Upland Birds". Tweety birds are not consider game nor upland birds. As a judge tweety birds should be ignored by the dog and the judge, Although not a disqualification, a dog chasing, pointing, or stopping to flush on non-upland birds repeatedly would be counted down on trainability.

Trust me, when any of the rules for Hunting Tests and Field Trials for spaniels or pointing dogs speak to birds, game, or quarry they mean upland birds only, it is well established for all of our hunting history.

Turkey, snipe, rails, polvers, and even woodcock cause some problems for inexperienced judges, the first 4 are non-events, the last is an upland birds.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by MI-Man » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:05 am

My GSP (14 months) does the same....robins, blackbirds, nuthatches, you name it. I enjoy watching her natural instincts come out. I figure it helps her learn she can't catch a bird if chased.
Enjoy!

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:02 am

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Double Shot Banks » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:56 am

My lab Banks does this, if he sees a barn swallow he will chase it because it gets low to the ground, and chases all the robins sitting on the ground.
He also sits and watched when ducks and geese fly over low, i think its a good problem!
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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by ruffbritt4 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:08 am

I should have mentioned he is just a hunting dog, and i wont be hunt testing or trialing him. I think for a hunting dog that wont be tested or trialed it is fine.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:11 am

Campgsp,

You cannot be that dense and that poor of a reader.

You did say a judge would call you on the delaying of chase on a medowlark. True, I don't know what that means, but if a judge calls me on something I would think it not good.

Yes, I can tell a snipe from a woodcock upon the flush and at a distance in flight.

The OP is concerned with training a ESS, and to have him hup on non-game birds is not productive.

Tell you what, get one handler of a pointing or spaniel MH to come on here and state that he thinks a stop to flush or hup on a non-game bird is a positive event and I will try to understand your nonsense.

Otherwise I will just leave it.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:22 am

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:07 am

I am an AKC Judge, I asked myself, and I agree with my position as stated above, fully.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:18 am

campgsp wrote:.
That is not true, they only have to stopt to flush on game birds.

Neil[/quote]

I must be mistaken. :roll: but a meadow lark is not a game bird and you will be called on a delay of chase if one does go up. I bet money on it.[/quote]

This is absolutely NOT TRUE. Dogs are not expected to honor non game birds in Hunt Tests.
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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:26 am

Dogs learn to differentiate between birds with consistent repetition. If you show no interest in tweety birds, but do show an interest in game birds the dog will learn to follow suit. Don't concern yourself with the tweety obsession, your dog will figure it out eventually.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by mountaindogs » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:42 am

Neil wrote:I am an AKC Judge, I asked myself, and I agree with my position as stated above, fully.
LOL!

I claim no judge knowledge, but if my hunting dog stops to flush on songbirds he is wasting my time. I would expect puppies to maybe chase or watch but an experienced dog should treat it like the non-issue that it is. If a judge docked my dog on that than I'd chalk that day up to practice and lean towards avoiding that judge. A pause and a glance especially on say plovers which fly low and loud is noticing. That's fine as long as they move on of there own accord once they see it's just a plover which should take about 3 seconds at the most.IMHO an attentive dog isfine but a sticky dog on overything that moves is irritating... really other than one setter I have never known a dog to chase them in the field after they start to gain experience. They quickly learn that the songbirds mean nothing. But they may still chase in the yard because they are playing and not hunting. Dogs know the difference.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:36 pm

Neil wrote:I am an AKC Judge, I asked myself, and I agree with my position as stated above, fully.
That's hilarious! Good answer Neil. :lol::lol::lol:

For the record, I agree with Neil. Non-game birds don't count.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:19 pm

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by deseeker » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:49 pm

Dogs do not have to stop to flush on non- game birds. I think your judges need to hold a judges seminar with the AKC field reps and go over the rules. I have a couple of the AKC field reps e-mail addresses if you would like to explain your problem about the judges to them(these are reps that actually go to the hunt test as observers to make sure they are run right). Sorry to go off topic with this thread :roll:

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:05 pm

campgsp wrote:
Neil wrote:I am an AKC Judge, I asked myself, and I agree with my position as stated above, fully.
Oh okay.... your an akc judge, sure your not just a akc "show" judge, since you stated above false information from the akc pointing hunt test rule book. Remember pigeons..
Like I said myself and others I know have been called on it, not by the same judge either. Do I think it's bs, heck ya!! But no way around it. Just be prepared is my moto.
Just another reason I'm thinking in not running akc anymore to much bs. And made up rules going on. Just like meadowlarks I don't see it in the rules but they will call me on it. Bs.

I'll leave it at that since your a "Miss" know it all..... :twisted:
I quoted the Spaniel Hunting Test Rules acutately as to pigeons. And I am confident that if your listening skills are no better than your reading skills as demonstrated here, it is more likely you misunderstood the judges than they were wrong.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:34 pm

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Winchey » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:02 pm

I can't imagine anyone ordering up a dog for not STF on a tweety bird, if they did I don't imagine they would ever be asked to judge again where I trial, and they would probably be mocked for eternity.

They will be picked up in broke stakes if you attempt to flush and they move regardless of what is there or not there.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:40 pm

campgsp wrote:
Neil wrote:I am an AKC Judge, I asked myself, and I agree with my position as stated above, fully.
Oh okay.... your an akc judge, sure your not just a akc "show" judge, since you stated above false information from the akc pointing hunt test rule book. Remember pigeons..
Like I said myself and others I know have been called on it, not by the same judge either. Do I think it's bs, heck ya!! But no way around it. Just be prepared is my moto.
Just another reason I'm thinking in not running akc anymore to much bs. And made up rules going on. Just like meadowlarks I don't see it in the rules but they will call me on it. Bs.

I'll leave it at that since your a "Miss" know it all..... :twisted:
I have no idea where you are coming from but it usually doesn't go over big when we get into the personal insults. For your information Neil has been deeply involved in field trials for longer than you have been alive. That said, that doesn't always make him right just like the rest of us are not always right. On this one though I believe he is for several reasons. I have run hunt test that your club sponsers and have never been called on it or have never seen anyone called on it. Second reason is it makes no sense and is actually counter productive. I would not ignore it but would mark it as a fault for any dog in the field. Nothing wrong seeing a puppy chase but a mature dog does not make any sense.

The quote you posted earlier was taken out of context and if you would put the whole thing together, the reference to birds was referring to game birds and not robins or other song birds.

Another thing that has nothing to do with anything but I too can tell the difference between a woodcock and any other bird even from a distance
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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:57 pm

campgsp wrote:
Neil wrote:
I quoted the Spaniel Hunting Test Rules acutately as to pigeons. And I am confident that if your listening skills are no better than your reading skills as demonstrated here, it is more likely you misunderstood the judges than they were wrong.
You never said it was from the spaniel. And I told you before I'm a pointing guy so obviously you have no comprehention.

Your just a real dumbass, I'm sitting here with a pro Trainer/handler right now that has done it all with dogs from Germany to France, to the USA of any possible venue that says your a complete illiterate schmuck. His words not mine.

What a dumbass. :lol: :twisted:
You should leave your pro friend out of it. Some of us know who he is. I'm sure he can speak for himself.

Insulting your elders is just plain BAD MANNERS. Show some respect if you agree or not. Stop emberassing yourself.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by campgsp » Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:10 pm

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by nikegundog » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:46 pm

Swagg wrote:I suppose you could call it self hunting, but my ESS will go crazy chasing anything that is flying over around or near the yard. anyone else have a dog like this? How and what can i do to stop this i personally cant stand it :D
My springer is the same way, spends about 8 hours a day chasing birds, the technical term in "Bat S**t Crazy", I don't think it has any negative effect on training or hunting JMO.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by birddogger » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:01 pm

mountaindogs wrote:
Neil wrote:I am an AKC Judge, I asked myself, and I agree with my position as stated above, fully.
LOL!

I claim no judge knowledge, but if my hunting dog stops to flush on songbirds he is wasting my time. I would expect puppies to maybe chase or watch but an experienced dog should treat it like the non-issue that it is. If a judge docked my dog on that than I'd chalk that day up to practice and lean towards avoiding that judge. A pause and a glance especially on say plovers which fly low and loud is noticing. That's fine as long as they move on of there own accord once they see it's just a plover which should take about 3 seconds at the most.IMHO an attentive dog isfine but a sticky dog on overything that moves is irritating... really other than one setter I have never known a dog to chase them in the field after they start to gain experience. They quickly learn that the songbirds mean nothing. But they may still chase in the yard because they are playing and not hunting. Dogs know the difference.
Ditto on everything said here. Just seems like common sense to me that any of the venues would be about game birds/upland birds, and would be pretty common knowledge as to what that is and is not, but some of these debates never cease to amaze me.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:31 pm

It is all OK.

Thanks for the support, Ezzy.

Neil

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Rockett » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:36 am

MI-Man wrote:My GSP (14 months) does the same....robins, blackbirds, nuthatches, you name it. I enjoy watching her natural instincts come out. I figure it helps her learn she can't catch a bird if chased.
Enjoy!

MI-MAN
Mine have realised that if they are quick enough they can catch them before they take off! :?

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:20 pm

To bring this back to the OP, all upland hunting, test, trialing dogs, their hunters, handlers and judges should ignore off-game. If the dog does not learn to ignore them in the field, he should be trained to do so.

What he does in his play time is of little concern.

Meaning the OP has little to worry about.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by duckn66 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:49 am

I think you have a great "problem". I have the same "problem" with one of my EP pups now. Love it!!

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by EvanG » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:15 am

Swagg wrote:How and what can i do to stop this i personally cant stand it :D
Formalize your obedience training, and enforce it. A Hall of Fame retriever trainer, Cotton Pershall once said, "If a dog can mark, and will do as he's told, it shouldn't matter what the test is". I agree. In this case, everything that flies through or near your yard is a test. But if your dog will do as you say, it shouldn't matter if he's distracted. He should sit when told to sit, and come when called, etc.

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Winchey
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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Winchey » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:37 am

I don't know anything about spaniels, but I certainly disagree with that when it comes to pointing dogs. Marking isn't that important, and doing what he is told matters little when his job is to find birds, not be drug to them and is often at a speed and distance that makes communication less than perfect.

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EvanG
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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by EvanG » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:57 am

Winchey wrote:I don't know anything about spaniels, but I certainly disagree with that when it comes to pointing dogs. Marking isn't that important, and doing what he is told matters little when his job is to find birds, not be drug to them and is often at a speed and distance that makes communication less than perfect.
I only mentioned marking because it was part of Pershall's statement. But it had nothing to do with the point! The salient point is that a trained dog should do as he's told, when he's told to do it. If the OP wants his dog to stop chasing everything that flies through or around his yard, he has only to train the dog. It's not that complicated.

EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa

There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum

Neil
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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by Neil » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:01 am

EvanG wrote:
Winchey wrote:I don't know anything about spaniels, but I certainly disagree with that when it comes to pointing dogs. Marking isn't that important, and doing what he is told matters little when his job is to find birds, not be drug to them and is often at a speed and distance that makes communication less than perfect.
I only mentioned marking because it was part of Pershall's statement. But it had nothing to do with the point! The salient point is that a trained dog should do as he's told, when he's told to do it. If the OP wants his dog to stop chasing everything that flies through or around his yard, he has only to train the dog. It's not that complicated.

EvanG
Yes, I agree. His choice.

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Re: chasing anything flying in the yard help???

Post by shags » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:42 am

What would you say is a good method for that? Handle it like trash breaking so the dog is cowering under the picnic table when birds are active; or teaching 'no chase' like a STF and hoping that the dog isn't cheating when nobody's there to reinforce it?

A young dog needs to do something with his time and energy when he's hanging out in a boring yard with nothing better to do. Maybe digging holes, chewing up the siding, or going OCD on flies is preferable?

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