Thoughts on age for NA test

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:49 am

I know some folks have tested out pups fairly young on their NAVHDA natural ability test. My next pup will fall into that zone, to where the last available tests around here, would put it somewhere between 4-5 months old. And if I wait until Spring, it would be somewhere around 12-13 months. What were/are your thoughts on approaching that? Test early, and if it doesn't happen, retest?

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:06 am

I don't believe in wasting money but if I felt my pup was ready I would be testing now. Like you said you can test again in the spring if needed. It is always nice passing with a young pup true natural ability. Best of luck what ever you decide. Happy hunting

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:01 am

Test young. Give the pups plenty of exposure leading up to it and see what momma and daddy gave them. Obviously the scores will be lower than they would be if you tested them, but a 12-13 month old dog will have a lot of training in them.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:07 am

We have tested some young, 4,5 mths. tested some older. All depends on when we can get to a test.

uplandrsb · Post by **uplandrsb** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:12 am

I would test young if your pup will get out and search a bit,.. Some dogs mature slower and would not be ready so 12 mos would be fine too.. The only thing is that by 12 mos some dogs have had a lot more training than would be expected in NA. With the way a pup of mine was whelped and local chapter test, i will test one at 15 mos.. Not ideal but the way it worked out. All in all i would test young, i think it also helps to really see what natural talent the young dog has. My 2 cents!

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:47 am

Don't let anyone tell you a pup is too young. I ran Dez at 4.3 months. PRZ 2 107. He took a hit in search... The grass was a little tall and thick for him. I am glad I tested him early.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:31 am

ACooper wrote:Don't let anyone tell you a pup is too young. I ran Dez at 4.3 months. PRZ 2 107. He took a hit in search... The grass was a little tall and thick for him. I am glad I tested him early.

I'll see how the summer unfolds, and think I'll give it a try. I sure would like to get it done with and move on. I would be proud to have a P2 107 on such a young pup.

TraditionsGSPs2010 · Post by **TraditionsGSPs2010** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:24 pm

I am speaking in generalities here but I think you will find the hardest part for a young dog is the search. Some younger dogs don't develop their independance until an older age. On the flip side, younger dogs tend to do better on the track because they're not out running their nose. From what I have seen, it appears that 6-10 months is the sweet spot but it is all dog specific. If you have a pup who will swim, track and expand its search at 4 months, you are in line for a P I - 112 as much as the guy testing at 15 mos, 29 days whose dog will do the same.

Good luck!

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:44 pm

I did my NA test at 5 months(last August), and from a test perspective it was a disaster, and a noob dog trainer/owner it was fantastic. I had a clear understanding of the holes in his exposure and really by 7 months he would have done prize 3 or better. Had I drove down to Montana this spring I bet it would have been prize one. So it's up to you, I found it a great learning experience for me and I did not take the "Failure" personally. For NA you dog needs to point, track and swim, mine did not know what a chukar was and did not swim without a reason.

I may test UTP this summer but I don't want to put myself into a time crunch, I'll work hard but I will be done when I am done, I will test to UT but on my time frame.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:37 pm

wems2371 wrote:I'll see how the summer unfolds, and think I'll give it a try. I sure would like to get it done with and move on. I would be proud to have a P2 107 on such a young pup.

That was my thought exactly I mean what is more impressive a prz 2 107 at 18 weeks or prz 1 on a 14 month old dog? IMO the younger dog. I had several people question why I wouldn't test him again to go for a 112. IMO we proved he was a nice pup and I didn't need five more points to know that.

EDIT:
I also want to be clear that I am not knocking testing an older pup in NA, run what you brung and enjoy your dog and the day.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:03 pm

I completly agree with coop. I test young, my boy Mason 112 @ 5 months, his sister prz2 @ 5months handled by my a 13yr daughter could of easly been pz1 if i handled her. The end goal is UT to VC i dont want waste time on NA. I think the true evalutation for NA dog is best at a younger age. Give them exsposer and letter rip.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:31 pm

Wems i guess the best advice is if you feel ur ready then go for it and dont look back, if ur not then wait. Just have fun In my experence the age has vary little to do with the out come in NA. Its more exsposer up and breeding. Ive seen young NA dogs come out of the feild with more fines and points than UT dogs running the same feild same day. The hardest thing in NA for pups is the track. Even with great scores or titled dogs you still have to look at the dog inside the title, titled dogs are not all equal. Hope this helps good luck, hav fun! Keep us posted:-)

abradley0408 · Post by **abradley0408** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:29 pm

My pup will only be 3 months old when the last NA test in my area happens. Is that just to young for it to be fair to him, or should I let him have a go at it.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:36 pm

3 months Imoit's not fair to the dog.

pud123 · Post by **pud123** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:38 pm

abradley0408 wrote:My pup will only be 3 months old when the last NA test in my area happens. Is that just to young for it to be fair to him, or should I let him have a go at it.

I believe the pup needs to be between 4-16 months to take the test. I'll be running my pup at the 7 month time frame. Go and watch a test and see where your dog is at, then train accordingly. I watched my first one this weekend and learned a pile.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:11 am

wems2371 wrote:
ACooper wrote:Don't let anyone tell you a pup is too young. I ran Dez at 4.3 months. PRZ 2 107. He took a hit in search... The grass was a little tall and thick for him. I am glad I tested him early.
I'll see how the summer unfolds, and think I'll give it a try. I sure would like to get it done with and move on. I would be proud to have a P2 107 on such a young pup.

Thats the whole thing to me. If you wait you can slow progress. That is if you have a dog that is ready to move on which most are.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:53 pm

Hattrick wrote:I completly agree with coop. I test young, my boy Mason 112 @ 5 months, his sister prz2 @ 5months handled by my a 13yr daughter could of easly been pz1 if i handled her. The end goal is UT to VC i dont want waste time on NA. I think the true evalutation for NA dog is best at a younger age. Give them exsposer and letter rip.

I also believe the true evaluation for NA is at a younger age. After all, it is testing for NA, not for testing a dog that has had some training. Exposing..yes, training..no.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:29 pm

I also believe the true evaluation for NA is at a younger age. After all, it is testing for NA, not for testing a dog that has had some training. Exposing.. yes, training.. no.

Right on.

Ezzy

mbyer · Post by **mbyer** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:51 am

I agree with the test young folks. I have seen many dogs get Prize I scores at 4 to 5 months. As stated above this largely depends on the maturity of the dog and the amount of exposure you have given him. If your dog is maturing fast and searching the field well why hold him back on his training? Many dogs I have seen at the 12 to 16 month age are figuring out what they are out there for and start to act like they are entering the early teenage years, doing what they want to do, which can hurt you in a test. Time for more advanced training when this starts in my opinion. Definitely expose the pup to Chukar, Pheasant and Quail. You don't want the test to be the first place he has seen them.

Good Luck!
DD_Hunter

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:16 am

With good fortune you are going to enjoy a dog for 15+ years, i have never understood the rush to push them as pups. I am not impressed with how young a dog might be when it earns an entry level prize.

Dogs need to be pups without pressure.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:19 am

Neil wrote:With good fortune you are going to enjoy a dog for 15+ years, i have never understood the rush to push them as pups. I am not impressed with how young a dog might be when it earns an entry level prize.

Dogs need to be pups without pressure.

Are you familiar with the Navhda NA test?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:30 am

ACooper wrote:
Neil wrote:With good fortune you are going to enjoy a dog for 15+ years, i have never understood the rush to push them as pups. I am not impressed with how young a dog might be when it earns an entry level prize.

Dogs need to be pups without pressure.
Are you familiar with the Navhda NA test?

Yes, and your point is? 4to 8 month old pups should be pups first and just start to learn to hunt. I am a firm believer, when it comes to the independent ability to hunt up wild birds, you cannot put something in, without taking something out.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:38 am

My point is that I don't believe anyone here was advocating pressure, but only introduction.

And to your comment about not being impressed with dogs testing young. So you would be more impressed with a 14 month old pup that has been trained to pass a natural ability test than a 5 month old pup that passes based on its natural ability?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:47 am

ACooper wrote:My point is that I don't believe anyone here was advocating pressure, but only introduction.

And to your comment about not being impressed with dogs testing young. So you would be more impressed with a 14 month old pup that has been trained to pass a natural ability test than a 5 month old pup that passes based on its natural ability?

Neither would impress me, I can train a cat to pass a NA/JH test. No judge can tell what is trained (some pressure required), vs what is truly natural.

Let pups be pups, you will know when they are ready for testing.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:18 am

No worries in my case about pressure.

Pup's momma was broke last year at 3 years old. She was Natural Ability tested at 13 months, not even steady to flush, and definitely a teenager/tweener. The first 6 months of that girls life, were spent walking a lot of fields and playing in water, and I think we worked pigeons 3x. I could have tested her at around 5 months, but the stinker is having to send in a $100 entry fee at 3.5 months, not knowing if she'd be ready. So I didn't send it in. It was either shortly before the unentered test or shortly thereafter, that she pointed her first wild pheasant, and I realized she would have been ready. She was already swimming, and if she could pin a wild bird, she could have hopefully flashpointed a stinky pen raised quail or chukar. No worries, in that I won't be showing up with a trained dog either way, whether it's 5 months or 13 months.

There is a subjective line between exposure and training. I do know sometimes people show up with trained NA pups. I've had many a chance photographing, to walk with judges, and watch this happen. In my opinion, they're not fooling anyone, and I've heard judges privately comment on pups being broke. Watching a pup be steady throughout, stop to flush, and retrieve a poor flying bird to hand...is not the NA norm IMO. And dangit, I don't even think it's fun to watch.

Anyway, that is not my goal. I was more curious, if others had tested young, and what the results were. My thoughts were that if she was capable this fall, I'd get it out of the way, before I have the tweener next year. It's not that the tweener is a bad thing, as mine prized respectably, but she sure did make me sweat during our test.

I know that no one can really answer this for me, it will just depend on how this pup progresses. I'm attending a handler's clinic in a couple weeks, and that might give me some insight as well.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:37 pm

Its just my personal standpoint but I don't enter my personal dogs in NA, JH or puppy stakes......I would rather spend my time and money training for what I want in a finished dog. Unlike trials and JH, NA earns you nothing toward the next level other than the handlers experience based on their goals. Since you are going to attend a handlers clinic, I would think about skipping the early stuff and concentrate on what you what in the end.

On the flip side, it can be fun and there is no other way to gain experience for you as a handler.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:04 pm

NA is not in anyway holding you back from the next level inless you have a dog that needs to be trained just to pass NA. Even then you cant hide the nose piece. The track in NA is harder than than the track in UT. NA an JR are 2 complete different animals. Is it perect probaly not but its pretty good and hole lot better than JR.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:05 pm

wems2371 wrote:I was more curious, if others had tested young, and what the results were.

I tested Cage at 5mths. earned a prize 1 110 pts. If we test Kate in thelast Na test in Minnesota she'll be a little over 4mths. Other wise we'll wait until first part of June next year. I enjoy handling NA dogs and run all our dogs NA.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:17 pm

Congrads cage nice score

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:44 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
wems2371 wrote:I was more curious, if others had tested young, and what the results were.
I tested Cage at 5mths. earned a prize 1 110 pts. If we test Kate in thelast Na test in Minnesota she'll be a little over 4mths. Other wise we'll wait until first part of June next year. I enjoy handling NA dogs and run all our dogs NA.

Very nice score! Not only is the handling fun but IMO its good experience for the pup to be around more people/dogs/ whatever else might be "strange" at a test.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:45 pm

Neil wrote:I can train a cat to pass a NA/JH test. .

If your cat had any natural ability you wouldn't have to train it.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:04 pm

ACooper wrote:
Neil wrote:I can train a cat to pass a NA/JH test. .
If your cat had any natural ability you wouldn't have to train it.

I am working on my breeding program.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:24 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
wems2371 wrote:I was more curious, if others had tested young, and what the results were.
I tested Cage at 5mths. earned a prize 1 110 pts. If we test Kate in thelast Na test in Minnesota she'll be a little over 4mths. Other wise we'll wait until first part of June next year. I enjoy handling NA dogs and run all our dogs NA.

Me too. I don't think I could skip it.

onuhunter02 · Post by **onuhunter02** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:32 am

I will be doing my first NA test on my 6 month old pup in August does any one have any advice for dealing with the heat or just testing in general. Prior to the test I plan on keeping her in the shade but I am positive once we get there she will be all kinds of excited and I am a little concerned about between the heat along with the excitement of the event she will tire out sooner than normal. Right now we have been working during all hours of the day depending on my work schedule so she should be use to the time of day. We go on daily walks or runs some times in the park and some times in the country. Any advice to prep for the event? I know there has been controversy about training but here is where I stand I am going to give my pup the best opportunity to do the best she can, just for the simple fact so that we can show the time and effort we have put into training. I also know we may show up and just have a bad day but I want to do everything I can to prevent having a bad day.

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:54 am

I tested Jackson at 6 months and he passed with a prize 1 112. That was when the test was, I felt he was ready earlier though. At the test a weim that was just short of 4 months tested to a prize1 112. I think it is all up to you if you feel ready. Onuhunter just relax and have fun when you get there. Believe me your 6 month old pup will have more than enough energy for the test. Good luck and happy hunting.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:05 am

ACooper wrote:
Neil wrote:I can train a cat to pass a NA/JH test. .
If your cat had any natural ability you wouldn't have to train it.

And here I was thinking that Buddy Stick and Place Board must be some serious training tools ......!

cr

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:51 am

Pups can be brought along for NA with zero pressure. Wems test when the times comes, let the chips fall where they may.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:19 pm

onuhunter02 wrote:I will be doing my first NA test on my 6 month old pup in August does any one have any advice for dealing with the heat or just testing in general. Prior to the test I plan on keeping her in the shade but I am positive once we get there she will be all kinds of excited and I am a little concerned about between the heat along with the excitement of the event she will tire out sooner than normal. Right now we have been working during all hours of the day depending on my work schedule so she should be use to the time of day. We go on daily walks or runs some times in the park and some times in the country. Any advice to prep for the event? I know there has been controversy about training but here is where I stand I am going to give my pup the best opportunity to do the best she can, just for the simple fact so that we can show the time and effort we have put into training. I also know we may show up and just have a bad day but I want to do everything I can to prevent having a bad day.

I don't run NAVHDA, but have general advice about tests as I have done and will continue to do some AKC and some BHU trials. I would practice with a tie-out for your dog. If it's too hot for her to be in the truck, then she'll need to be on a tie-out, so make sure she is comfortable on a stake out chain. As for the excitement of the event, get her out to a lot of places between now and then and stake her out so that she can learn to be calm when on a chain. Keeping her calmer might be easier if it was cool enough to leave her in the crate in the car, but if you can't, then get her used to being tied out.

Thornapple · Post by **Thornapple** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:40 am

“The Natural Ability Test which is designed to evaluate the inherent natural abilities of young dogs and gain insight into their possible usefulness as versatile gun dogs. It rates seven important inherited abilities: nose, search, tracking, pointing, water, desire and cooperation.
The natural, inherited abilities of a hunting dog usually manifest themselves at an early age, and it is desirable to take advantage of this fact by testing dogs while they are still young. By so doing, the owner or trainer gets an impartial evaluation of the dog’s strengths and weaknesses and thus is better able to map out a future training program for the animal."
(per NAVHDA -"Aims of NAVHDA Testing")
For active NAVHDA participants it does not mean however very basic training is not incorporated in helping puppies along those "innate abilities" in preparation for a NA test. At the same time it needs to be remembered by all those thinking of taking the evaluation that is nothing more than that. Too many consider this a test of a young dog's performance (breeders in particular!), it is not! For those whom have coached sports or taught school we go through initial evaluations to determine a young person's basic skills to understand how to proceed with further training or education. It is nothing neither more nor less than that! This is a very important point to understand! It would be considered not only inappropriate but highly questionable putting too much pressure on a child or puppy before it is ready. Yet there are children like puppies that show incredible talent very early. However, under no circumstances should a puppy be considered less than competent just because they fail at the NA or get a low score, this is important for all to understand! The NA assessment has been an invaluable tool, if one wishes to precede further, in my training process as it should be for all.
To the question of what is the minimum age appropriate to test a puppy in NA? Typically it involves a dog around 4-5 months and older on up to the maximum age allowed of sixteen months for an evaluation score, although older dogs are permitted to take the evaluation but no score is provided. The minimum age is simply one of common sense. One of the most famous judges of all time, Nash Buckingham once said, "A handler does not need to be a professional. Watch your dog's performance, it will teach you a lot as to what it is capable and comfortable performing."

abradley0408 · Post by **abradley0408** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:56 am

I think I'm going to go for it. Blaze will be 3.5 months old by the time of the last NA test in my area. I think it will give him a lot of exposure to new things, and he will still have plenty of time to redo it the following spring. Seeing two NA test results could be handy for seeing improvement right?

Thornapple · Post by **Thornapple** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:53 am

Regarding your last comment; remember, what I mentioned earlier, the NA evaluation is there to help you in future training. It is simply an evaluation of how your dog is performing at one moment in time. It is a very early snap shot of a puppy that most often will mature, grow, and change beyond what NA evaluates. I can not say a dog 3.5 months old is the right age or not, no one on this email list can definitively say it is. Only you can make that assessment. My guess is that it will not perform at the highest ranking level of NA, but that is not the point! I do not know if you ever played little league baseball, but if you did do you remember the first time you tried out for a team? How far could you throw, did you ever drop a ball, or strike out? I coached two kids that did all three and did not do any well, but both had something called desire and heart; years later they went on to play Division I college baseball. Like these two boys what the test will give you is a framework to work from, to help them get better. Also remember, you will have three judges that are in fact cheering for your dog during the assessment. The judge’s final assessment is not a score card as most think, it is a means for you to get knowledgeable and yes even caring advice on what to work on. In a recent NA test I saw three judges speak to a young teenage handler privately on issues that he as a handler needed to correct or stop! Then they showed him how to make the appropriate changes to get the results he needed. You also will find almost all experienced NAVHDA participants more than willing to help you along the way. We all have been through it we all want our dogs to do well to the best of their ability!
Most importantly this is supposed to be fun and please do not loose sight of that. This is probably the most important advice you can receive. Like Little League which I frequently acquaint puppy or dog training the parents are always seem to be the problem not the kids; the puppies like the kid’s just want to learn, practice, and play hard. So have fun at it and make sure you love that dog of yours, it is your special pal!

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:18 pm

Neil wrote:
ACooper wrote:
Neil wrote:With good fortune you are going to enjoy a dog for 15+ years, i have never understood the rush to push them as pups. I am not impressed with how young a dog might be when it earns an entry level prize.

Dogs need to be pups without pressure.
Are you familiar with the Navhda NA test?
Yes, and your point is? 4to 8 month old pups should be pups first and just start to learn to hunt. I am a firm believer, when it comes to the independent ability to hunt up wild birds, you cannot put something in, without taking something out.

I was shooting limits of woodcock over my 6 month old GSP. So how long should I have waited to test her? Test em when they ready.

abradley0408 · Post by **abradley0408** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:55 am

What things ( commands, experinces, etc) should a pup know/have before he is ready to give a NA test a try? I know I want to have him introduced to birds and comfortable swimming before hand.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:08 am

My pup would come when called and had an association with the word "track".

Thornapple · Post by **Thornapple** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:34 am

A Bradley,
Familiarity is a positive experience with a puppy you are working with for anything. Here are a few ideas that I have used thanks to George Hickox.

For swimming see if he or she will go into the water on its own to swim after its favorite toy (assuming it can float). Since it is summer get on some flip flops, shorts and go in enticing it in. Do not force it in. Remember this is a positive experience! Continue making a game of chasing after something it enjoys on land such as chasing a ball. A friend kept throwing a ball in a hall of his home with doors closed so it could not get out and was not distracted. The objective is it should enter water (not with the "Fetch" command) and swim a short distance, twice.

(the following techniques I used from George Hickox's dvd on puppy training)
I used an enclosed wire pen I had for the puppy open at one end for field work. Any enclosure will work however. I locked the wings of a pigeon and let the puppy find it, smell it, and just explore the live bird. Then i tied rubber bands around one wing so it could not fly and did same thing giving more animation for the puppy. After it was familiar with the live bird, I put out some pen raised quial or pigeons dizzied up and let him find them, again easy to find, then I would flush them, and then later I would shoot off a blank behind my back when the bird was flushed (only after you have proofed your puppy with gun shot sounds). The puppy should show signs of looking for birds on its own without your direction. He/she is not required to be steady at this point.

Gun shots. Start with someome shooting off a starter gun a good 100 feet away and notice the reation. If you puppy jumps start it back further until the sound is inconsequential, then slowly move it up toward you and the puppy. Once the puppy is comfortable with the sound some twenty feet away and behind the shooter's back go to a 410 or 28 gauge. Again at 100 to 150 feet away. Proceed with each step closer cautiously until the puppy is familiar witht he sound some 25 feet away.

Tracking can be taught even if it shows instinct. This is important that while the puppy can show instinct it can get distracted by a butterfly or hundreds of other things. You want to introduce the fun and reward of tracking at this point. When he finds a real bird at the end of the track just watch its tail and then you will see how much fun he/she is having! Drag a dead chucker, duck, or pheasant on a lead around the yard in a straight line of about 20 feet and leave it. Bring the puppy up on a check chord, show it some feathers from the bird, and let it go. If the puppy goes off the track bring it gently back across the track until it picks up the scent again, and do it again and again if necessary. Do not worry if he gets distracted. Little children get distracted a lot when learning, it is the patient parent that teaches. Praise a lot when finding the bird. Extend the distance each time eventually using turns in your tracking, but always praise.

George Hickox's DVD is an excellent training tool for puppy owners and one I suggest you buy or borrow if you can as it goes into much more detail and he emphasis a positive learning experience. Remember; have fun, make it a game, and not work!