How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

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How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Higgins » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:54 am

Seems the word "steady" means different things to different people. I'm trying to figure out if there is a definition most would agree on. Would you say that a pointing dog with an AKC Master title is "steady"? How about a dog with a Senior title?

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Dog

Post by Del Lolo » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:19 am

Are you talking about retrievers or pointers?
An AKC MH (retriever hunt tests) would be steady. Same is true with an HRC Finished retriever as well as a NAHRA Senior.
Steady watching Marks fall, steady during Honoring, Steady to Flush/shot/fall in the NAHRA Senior Upland as well as HRC Upland testing. Don't go anywhere until sent.

Actually retrievers are expected to be steady in the "intermediate" levels of all three organizations too.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Dog

Post by Higgins » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:31 am

Hello Del Lolo,

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I'm referring to pointing dogs.

I reedited the original post.

Thanks,

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Coveyrise64 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:46 am

NAVHDA requirements......

Steady to wing, shot, fall. If honoring, steady through the retrieve by the pointing dog. At the water, steady to the shot at the blind, the retrieve of the duck, duck search, and honor the retrieve of another dog at the water.

Is that steady enough....? :wink:
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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by aulrich » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:51 am

Isn't steady in the eye of the beholder.

I guess base line steady would be steady to flush, but some folks like steady to shot or steady to shot an fall.

and then you throw in the various testing protocols, I bet trialing is another level to it's self. then there is the guy who just want's to shoot some birds :)

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:56 am

Steady to me is defined by the dogs actions and not it's titles. Steady means what it says but agreed, there are different degrees of steady so I think it has to be stated when talking about it. Such as steady to wing, steady to shot, steady to fall, or steady till released. All have a function so will probably always need to be stated, when someone asks.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by DonF » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:37 am

Steady could mean several things. Steady to flush; dog brakes after the flush. Steady to shot, dog breaks after the shot. Steady to fall. Dog doesn't go until sent by the handler. Call it a broke dog or a finished dog. It's steady to everything
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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:48 am

Coveyrise64 wrote:NAVHDA requirements......Steady to wing, shot, fall. If honoring, steady through the retrieve by the pointing dog. At the water, steady to the shot at the blind, the retrieve of the duck, duck search, and honor the retrieve of another dog at the water. Is that steady enough....?
+1

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Coveyrise64 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:50 am

aulrich wrote:......I bet trialing is another level to it's self.
Not even close...... :roll:

ezzy333 wrote:Steady to me is defined by the dogs actions and not it's titles.
In any venue, titles are earned by the dogs actions while under judgement. Not sure what your point was. :?

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:57 am

I think we could throw in steady to stop to flush also.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by aulrich » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:02 am

Coveyrise64 wrote:
aulrich wrote:......I bet trialing is another level to it's self.
Not even close...... :roll:

ezzy333 wrote:Steady to me is defined by the dogs actions and not it's titles.
In any venue, titles are earned by the dogs actions while under judgement. Not sure what your point was. :?

cr
Really I though folks would get points docked if the dog moves it feet as the bird flys away even to twist to see where it drops.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:34 am

aulrich wrote:Really I though folks would get points docked if the dog moves it feet as the bird flys away even to twist to see where it drops.
I think opinions vary with judges on this matter. A bird flys behind the dog . Should the dog be allowed to turn with the birds flight ? Some yes , some no. I'm not a judge Does the dog know if the bird will be shot or not. Some AKC FT stake there is a retrieve. I'm a believer that body alinment has something to do with a dog making a quick clean retrieve.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Coveyrise64 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:42 am

Ms. Cage wrote:I think we could throw in steady to stop to flush also.
And stop to shot....
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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Higgins » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:49 am

Lot of great responses. I agree, there are lots of variations and degrees of steadiness. Different tests and trials have different requirements. What I'm looking for here is a consensus of opinion for personal hunting dogs.

Steadiness can include just steady to wing (leaving at the gunshot or the fall of the bird) or steady to wing, shot and fall. I think we can all agree on that. Let's also agree that a dog that is considered steady should also stop when an unscented bird flushes. Stop to flush.

The next question would be, at the different levels of steadiness (STW & SWSF) do the words "steady", "finished" and "broke" mean the same thing? In other words, can a dog that is STW be considered "finished"?

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:06 am

Is steady to wing finished? I think that depends on what you want if that's all that you require then to those people it would be finished by their definition,not so to those that require more.
That's why we get so many answers because finished means different things to different people.
Most hunters in these parts might not even go that far,as long as their dogs find & hold until they get there to shoot is all they are looking for especially young hunters,as they age & mature they get more into
the dog work & training & want more in terms of finish.They start to put more into the dog work & not the killing!!

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:54 am

How do you define a "steady" pointing dog?

Seems like a pretty specific question.

Answer: A dog that will hold point until instructed to do otherwise.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:03 pm

Steady??

To me steady means: "does not move."

Steady "to wing" means does not move when bird is flushed.

Steady "to shot" means does not move when bird is flushed and gun is fired.

Steady "to fall" means does not move when bird is flushed, when gun is shot and when bird falls out of the sky.

Steady "to retrieve" means does not move to all of the above and also does not move when another dog is sent for the retrieve.

If the requirements for a particular test or trial require the dog to be steady to one of the above scenarios, then that is the "level' of steadiness that the dog must be trained to and exhibit.

If a dog has achieved a Master Hunter title that means(I think), at one time the dog was steady to wing, shot, fall and retrieve. If the dog has place in an AF adult stake, that means, at one time, it was steady to wing and shot.

If the steadiness training and discipline is not maintained, it will almost certainly slip. if a dog is allowed to break at shot during hunts, for example, it probably will not remain steady to wing and shot or wing, shot and fall in a competitive setting without a "tune up".

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:52 pm

If a dog has achieved a Master Hunter title that means(I think), at one time the dog was steady to wing, shot, fall and retrieve. If the dog has place in an AF adult stake, that means, at one time, it was steady to wing and shot.

If the steadiness training and discipline is not maintained, it will almost certainly slip. if a dog is allowed to break at shot during hunts, for example, it probably will not remain steady to wing and shot or wing, shot and fall in a competitive setting without a "tune up".

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And this explains what I meant when I said steady does not relate to titles but to the present action of the dog.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Sharon » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:43 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Steady to me is defined by the dogs actions and not it's titles. Steady means what it says but agreed, there are different degrees of steady so I think it has to be stated when talking about it. Such as steady to wing, steady to shot, steady to fall, or steady till released. All have a function so will probably always need to be stated, when someone asks.

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Exactly . If I say my dog is "steady" I mean she is "steady to wing, steady to shot, steady to fall, steady till released."
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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:11 pm

The titles and recognized placements in the various venues do have one very definite function. They serve to inform the general public that at least at one time, the dog was able to perform at a level sufficient to obtain those titles or placements.

That means two things to me. First, of course, that the dog had the talent to perform a level sufficient to gain those titles or placements.

But secondly and more importantly, that the dog had sufficient trainability and mental toughness to handle the pressure necessary to be trained to the level necessary to attain those titles or placements... which is to say that it not only executed the required behaviors, but executed them under the pressures of competition which is a whole lot more difficult on the animal.

FWIW, I hunted for a whole lot of years over dogs that were what I call "staunch". To me, staunch means find, point and hold the bird 'till I get there. Breaking at flush was standard procedure. Never had any need for more "manners" than that. I found that dogs whose parents were able to win in trials, where steady to wing and shot was required, pretty much got staunch all on their own with very little help required. Worked for me.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:41 pm

I like my dogs to be steady on point, then steady to flush after I have commanded them to flush the bird , to be steady to shot and steady to fall of game. It can take me many months to achieve all that but it comes eventually.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by DonF » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
aulrich wrote:Really I though folks would get points docked if the dog moves it feet as the bird flys away even to twist to see where it drops.
I think opinions vary with judges on this matter. A bird flys behind the dog . Should the dog be allowed to turn with the birds flight ? Some yes , some no. I'm not a judge Does the dog know if the bird will be shot or not. Some AKC FT stake there is a retrieve. I'm a believer that body alinment has something to do with a dog making a quick clean retrieve.
Body alignment has to do with the dogs ability to mark the fall. In AKC dog's are allowed to move to mark the bird. Problem is if they do, they are gone! Judges would rather see a dog poorly mark a bird then eventually find it for a retrieve. Wouldn't it be something to use wild birds instead of pen raised. Imagine a dog that does not move to mark the bird and the bird is simply crippled.
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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:41 pm

Ms. Cage wrote: I'm a believer that body alinment has something to do with a dog making a quick clean retrieve.
DonF wrote: Body alignment has to do with the dogs ability to mark the fall

It all works hand and hand. If the dog doesn't have body alignment it doesn't mark well Bad mark usally mean retrieve won't be quick and clean .

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by whoadog » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:14 am

RayGubernat wrote:I hunted for a whole lot of years over dogs that were what I call "staunch". To me, staunch means find, point and hold the bird 'till I get there. Breaking at flush was standard procedure. Never had any need for more "manners" than that.
+1
I think this may be where the confusion for some folks lies. Staunch and steady seem like they should be interchangeable but they are not when it comes to pointing breeds.

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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:46 am

Ms. Cage wrote:
aulrich wrote:Really I though folks would get points docked if the dog moves it feet as the bird flys away even to twist to see where it drops.
I think opinions vary with judges on this matter. A bird flys behind the dog . Should the dog be allowed to turn with the birds flight ? Some yes , some no. I'm not a judge Does the dog know if the bird will be shot or not. Some AKC FT stake there is a retrieve. I'm a believer that body alinment has something to do with a dog making a quick clean retrieve.

The rule is that there should be no significant forward motion by the dog, towards the bird.

There are some judges who will frown upon a dog that turns to mark, or even turns its head to follow flight, but they are wrong and this is a judging error which rewards style over substance.

A dog that is hunted and which knows that it will be asked to retrieve will often turn to mark if the bird(s) fly behind them. As long as the dog does not make forward progress toward the bird, that is what I would expect, even want, a "bird dog" to do.

In fact, the dog that spins around in its own tracks and watches the bird fly away... trembling with anticipation, but not moving a toenail...is showing me something pretty special. That is intense desire that is under trained control and yeah, that is pretty special to me.


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Re: How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:27 pm

Ray, that has been my experience with AKC judges as well. Most don't fault you at all as long as the dog made no move to trap the bird. Some may mark you down but I've never seen a dog ordered up for merely marking. Not saying it hasnt happened to anyone else but from what I have seen, its usually the handler "justifying" their performance more than the judges being unfair.

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How Do You Define a "Steady" Pointing Dog

Post by cmc274 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:34 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Ms. Cage wrote:
aulrich wrote:Really I though folks would get points docked if the dog moves it feet as the bird flys away even to twist to see where it drops.
I think opinions vary with judges on this matter. A bird flys behind the dog . Should the dog be allowed to turn with the birds flight ? Some yes , some no. I'm not a judge Does the dog know if the bird will be shot or not. Some AKC FT stake there is a retrieve. I'm a believer that body alinment has something to do with a dog making a quick clean retrieve.

The rule is that there should be no significant forward motion by the dog, towards the bird.

There are some judges who will frown upon a dog that turns to mark, or even turns its head to follow flight, but they are wrong and this is a judging error which rewards style over substance.

A dog that is hunted and which knows that it will be asked to retrieve will often turn to mark if the bird(s) fly behind them. As long as the dog does not make forward progress toward the bird, that is what I would expect, even want, a "bird dog" to do.

In fact, the dog that spins around in its own tracks and watches the bird fly away... trembling with anticipation, but not moving a toenail...is showing me something pretty special. That is intense desire that is under trained control and yeah, that is pretty special to me.


RayG
Ray,

I've been reading John Criswell's book and there are a lot of gems in it about good bird dogs and good judging. One of my favorites was that "a dog that doesn't care enough to mark the flight of birds probably doesn't care enough about finding them for me either".

However, I cannot fault trainers that do what it takes to win. If judges aren't going to look at a dog that marks birds, they have to train their dogs to not mark em.

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