Remote Backer

[roaniecowpony]

I finally got out my backer from the box after it sat for months in my garage. I bought it from LCS because GDS was out of stock and they actually referred me to LCS.

Anyway, I'm guessing they're all from the same Chinese maker. Mine had virtually all the fasteners either loose or some actually laying in the bottom of the box. So I pulled it all apart and used Loctite on everything.

When I tried it out, the thing would flip up and down a couple times and where it stopped was different each time. I ended up having to reset the microswitch timing. Basically, the Chinese quality control was piss poor. But I eventually got it running in an hour or so. I range checked it to the end of my street, which is about 180 yards. i tossed the Chinese batteries out of the transmitter and receiver put in new stuff, and plugged in the charger for the servo battery. It should be good to go for next weekend.

I'm interested to learn how you guys that train with a backer run drills with one. My plan was to run the dog on a CC upwind of the birds in launchers so the dog doesn't wiff the birds. When the dog is headed toward the backer but about 50 yards away, my plan was to flip it up. I know the dog backs a live dog and may have been trained with an auto backer. So I'm thinking there's more than a chance the dog will honor the backer. But just in case I'll be on the checkcord. Once the dog is honoring, my plan was to launch a fly-away bird, fire a blank, assure the dog is steady, launch another, fire again. Call it a day if it all goes well.

[Carolina Gundogs]

I will mention my packing slip showed that mine was bought through GDS but drop shipped from LCS. I believe that is how it usually works or did when I bought mine.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Hickox most likely trained your pointer to back with the exact same backing tool (there's that dreaded word again) that you now own. When the dog is steady to flush. Run him the way you described. Trigger the backing dog, and then follow it with the bird launch. Pre-cue-cue. With enough consistent repetitions the dog will stop when it sees the dog on point.

Nate

[Maurice]

If he backs a live dog in a real situation I would not screw with trying to improve that

Mo

[mask]

If he backs a live dog in a real situation I would not screw with trying to improve that

Mo

+ 1 or use a live dog instead.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

If he backs a live dog in a real situation I would not screw with trying to improve that

Mo

I agree. However, this drill has probably already been done on this particular dog many times.

Nate

[birddogger]

If he backs a live dog in a real situation I would not screw with trying to improve that

Mo

Same here. I don't understand the reason for it.

Charlie

[roaniecowpony]

Thanks for the inputs. So, why do the drill? My thought was for proficiency and for reinforcing steady to wing and shot, specifically when honoring. The dog hasn't had to honor since last October and won't until who knows when I hunt with another pointer. I also think it'll help with steady to wing and shot when pointing.

[birddogger]

Thanks for the inputs. So, why do the drill? My thought was for proficiency and for reinforcing steady to wing and shot, specifically when honoring. The dog hasn't had to honor since last October and won't until who knows when I hunt with another pointer. I also think it'll help with steady to wing and shot when pointing.

That explanation helps me understand the reasoning behind it. I kind of thought I must have been missing something.

Charlie

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Thanks for the inputs. So, why do the drill? My thought was for proficiency and for reinforcing steady to wing and shot, specifically when honoring. The dog hasn't had to honor since last October and won't until who knows when I hunt with another pointer. I also think it'll help with steady to wing and shot when pointing.

Makes sense to me. Periodically running a steady dog in a maintenance drill is a good idea.

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

Nate
George ran some steady to wing a shot drills doing flyaways at the class last August in Idaho. He told me to do that to reinforce and maintain the steadiness. I have to admit, I've been delinquent on following up. But I did go out and run a drill with the dog a couple weeks ago. I've also ordered a third launcher. A friend and I are going out this weekend.

I've heard that when you run a backing drill, you should always put a bird in the air when the dog honors. Is that a hard and fast rule?

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I've heard that when you run a backing drill, you should always put a bird in the air when the dog honors. Is that a hard and fast rule?

I don't know about hard and fast, but the dog will anticipate a bird. Build up to a complete picture for the dog(s). Pointing, backing, steading, honoring and retrieving. Break it down into parts the dog can handle. When you run 2 dogs that will back/honor each other it can be very rewarding to be a part of it all. The dogs enjoy it as much as the handlers. Once you can get a dog to point or back and be steady to wing and shot, a final phase is to let the honoring or non working dog make the retrieve. Which makes him the working dog and the other the honoring dog. When all goes well you know that you've done your part.
A similar drill should also be a part of finishing flushing dogs. Although the dog that flushed the bird often will give you a dirty look.

Nate

[Lyco Setter]

I use mine differently in that I use primarily in the breaking process. After the dog has fully engrained in its mind that the only way to stop the stim on the belly band is to stand, I introduce birds. Bird in launcher and silhouette nearby a dog is check-corded (long one) up within sight. A natural backer will honor, one that doesn't needs to be stim'd as soon as you're sure it saw the silhouette. A dog that was taken fully and throughly through whoa-post training will not budge. I walk by and flush the bird, ready to stim the dog when it commits to a chase. That is where it's tricky, you have to really watch the dog and quickly decide what level of stim is needed (and adjust your remote) to get it's attention and make it worthwhile for them to stop. (Continuous stimulation is used, it stops when they stop.) This progressively takes the chase out of them. When they're standing tall then it's time for them to find and stand their own birds and when they're solid, shooting birds. This ain't new... Delmar Smith and Co. came up with this a long time ago. It really works great.

[roaniecowpony]

I ran two backing drills with my pointer this morning. The first drill I ran the dog in from upwind and she honored the remote backer from about 25 yds. I picked her up and put her on a place board (she was steady trained with a place board and I run clicker drills on a place board occasionally) . I popped the first bird. She held steady. I fired a blank and let the bird fly away.. Still steady. Waited about 10 seconds and popped another. Still steady. Fired...steady. another 10 seconds or so...repeated. All good. Put her away for a while while I ran my lab to shoot n retrieve.

Later, I ran essentially the same drill again but without the place board and just two birds. She was rock steady. The dog is reliable but the dang remote for the DT Systems launchers was intermittent. I ended up kicking off half the launches. :roll: I guess its going back to the shop.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

DT needs to improve their remotes because that is a reacuring problem with them,If they would get that taken care of everything else seems to be fine.

[roaniecowpony]

DT needs to improve their remotes because that is a reacuring problem with them,If they would get that taken care of everything else seems to be fine.

Agreed. The switch they use is a tiny little thing.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

This may sound a little shady, but you could send the remote in for repair/inspection to dt immediately after purchase at no additional cost. The warranty is only 1 year, and odds of it failing after that seem to be pretty high. 5 years after sending mine in for repair, it still works without fail.
Quality control in Chinese electronic is not exactly stellar, and there is probably very little actual testing done here done with the imported stuff.

I do have a question about your first drill Chuck. What prompted you to pick up the dog and place her on the board in the first place? I guess I can understand it if she was creeping or something, but not if she was backing and steady. Why move her?

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

... I do have a question about your first drill Chuck. What prompted you to pick up the dog and place her on the board in the first place? I guess I can understand it if she was creeping or something, but not if she was backing and steady. Why move her?

Nate

Nate,
I had been hunting the lab and pointer on the ground together last season. That was a mistake. Big mistake. The lab started figuring out that a point meant a bird and it got competitive with the dogs. Within a few of those times, the pointer was no longer steady to wing and shot. I put up with it on several hunts in AZ and CA totalling maybe 10 days of hunting. So, she got away with it for too long. Another mistake. I've been working on steady ever since. I knew she was trained by George that the place board was a safe place and stepping off would get her a correction. I took her up to a Wally World hunt preserve a few times in the post season and followed her around carrying my place board and her on a checkcord. She'd find a planted bird, point, I'd put her on a place board, get ahold of the CC, and have a friend walk in and flush and shoot the bird. The first time she tried to break and she got a correction. The second time, she just moved around on the board. The third time, she was steady. I then carried a thin carpet door mat, same as covers the place board, and would put it down on the ground for a few points, flushes and shots. I've been reinforcing her steadiness by starting her first point of the day after an extended time by putting her on the place board. There's no doubt she knows she's not supposed to get off the place board. She clearly connected all the dots and hasn't broke point on flushes and shots and falls since I started running these drills, even when not on a board or placemat. Hopefully, I learned something from all this.

Regarding the DT launcher remote, here's a picture of the circuitboard with the switches. Those two retangular things in the middle of the board are the switches. Tiny little things. I'm searching the net for some mil spec switches of the same form factor that I can change them out with.

[cmc274]

What was going through the dogs mind when it did the right thing (ie point or back like it was supposed to) and you waltzed in, picked it up and set it down on a pallet? It surely couldn't have thought it did the right thing. And it don't matter if Bill Rayl or Oscar the grouch trained it. No dog likes getting picked up and moved around.

[roaniecowpony]

What was going through the dogs mind when it did the right thing (ie point or back like it was supposed to) and you waltzed in, picked it up and set it down on a pallet? It surely couldn't have thought it did the right thing. And it don't matter if Bill Rayl or Oscar the grouch trained it. No dog likes getting picked up and moved around.

I don't waltz and I don't know what dogs think. But since you sashayed into this thread, maybe you can enlighten everyone as to how you know what dogs think and in particular, how you know what my dog thinks.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

What was going through the dogs mind when it did the right thing (ie point or back like it was supposed to) and you waltzed in, picked it up and set it down on a pallet? It surely couldn't have thought it did the right thing. And it don't matter if Bill Rayl or Oscar the grouch trained it. No dog likes getting picked up and moved around.

I don't waltz and I don't know what dogs think. But since you sashayed into this thread, maybe you can enlighten everyone as to how you know what dogs think and in particular, how you know what my dog thinks.

I'm not exactly sure what the dog was thinking either, but that exchange was pretty entertaining. I do think that you risk causing confusion and apprehension in your dog however, by moving her when she's on point. If she moves or creeps; well now that's another story. You should feel free to give her stimulation, pick her up and re-place her to the location where she should be standing.

I'd hate to some day see ol' George following a dog around the field with a place board. I sure hope it never comes to that.
I suggest using the board only for yard work and introductory transitional field work, and your pointer should be well beyond that stage by now. She can handle the correction when she tests the limits. Just be sure that she knows why she is being corrected, and be consistent with her. As you know timing and consistency is everything.

On a lighter note. One of the most ridiculous comments uttered at a George Hickox seminar, was by one of the attending students. He made an assessment of the place board saying, "Well...I'm not using that with my dog. I don't want my dog to be out hunting, and go stand on a board out in the field."

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

Nate
I've probably made a few quotable remarks at his classes too.

As for handling the dog while on point...George made a point of emphasizing getting a dog used to being handled on point. You may recall he would pick up the dogs, style them up, etc. In the classes. I'm not sure he would recommend what I did, but I think he layed the ground work that allowed it to work. Thats my story anyway.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Chuck,

You make a good point. The dog should be able to handle the pressure while on point. I guess I just don't see the point in messing with them when they are showing the correct behavior in the field. Dang, that's an awful lot of points!

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

Nate
I gave a lot of thought to the potential downside of handling the dog on point vs using other methods of pressure after the dog breaks such as the check cord and ecollar. I figured I'd have to use a lot more pressure without the board as I know how much emphasis it was given in the dog's training. As you know how George makes sure the dog understands what the board represents, and his frequent handling of his dogs on point since pups, you may see the path I took really didn't have anywhere near as big a risk to cause a problem as our dancing friend above presumes. I recall George picking up and styling up just about all the dogs we ran thru flyaway drills in the last class. My path took the dog from breaking on the the flush for dozens of flushes to steady again in two or three birds and little correction from a ecollar. But I can see where this woulda been a concern with a dog that rarely was handled on point.

[PntrRookie]

...I just don't see the point in messing with them when they are showing the correct behavior in the field...

I realize this is off the OP subject, but I whole-heartedly agree with this - and the key in that statement is "showing the correct behavior". The more we as humans put our hands (and verbal commands) on them when they are doing it RIGHT, the more we produce flaggers, blinkers, less confident dogs...JMO. IMO if they are doing it right, let them stand there and suck it all in until they do something wrong (so u can correct) or until you flush that bird. Let them decide what you will do next and let them enjoy that scent!