Launcher Orientation

[mtlhdr]

I may be over-analyzing, but how do you like to position your launchers? I've been placing them perpendicular to the wind to get sufficient air/scent flow. How do you place them in relation to cover? Seems like there's a balance between hiding them well but allowing for some air flow for scenting. I've also been lightly brushing the area a couple of feet downwind of the launcher with the bird prior to setting. Is this ok? Thoughts?

[MI-Man]

A tip I learned from this forum: Place a bird in a mess bag down wind of the bird in the launcher, this way the pup picks up the bagged bird's scent first to lock up on.
Thus the pup is not too close to the launched bird.....helping to not scare the pup as he/she gets use to a flushed bird AND it will help the pup learn locking up a good distance from the bird is okay.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I know I've posted this numerous times on multiple threads, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, here it goes.

Don't let the dog scent a bird in the launcher. The problems associated with doing so, are that the dog will tend to get too close to it because the bird scent will be camoflaged. There is also the risk that a dog ( particularly a pup ) may tend to get close enough to be startled by the sound. I prefer to use a scent bird. A lock wing pigeon works well. Set your launchers away from the scent cone of the planted bird.

Nate

[bonasa]

With a lock wing: Plant the lock wing in loose cover i.e. on the edge of a blow down and put the launcher in the blow down , upwind 15-20' from the lock wing bird. Bring the check-corded dog in downwind of the lock wing bird, when pup scents pop the bird.

Do not let the dog point. When the dog pulls harder, pauses or assumes classic point stance pop the bird. There is no time or room for a dog that creeps, or roads in on a launcher bird. When the dog

Where are you in training? Puppy, breaking or maintenance?

[DonF]

Bird in the launcher, remote I assume. Don't rub the bird down wind from the launcher. You are intentionally creating a hot spot to stop the dog on, you don't want to do that. Dog that learns to point a hot spot will, you want the dog to point a bird, do that! What you want is a dog that hit's scent and stop's, hit's body scent and stops! Plant a bird with it's wings folded but pop the bird in the trap, what will you do with the bird left with it's wings folded, don't do that. If you have remote launcher's, don't restrain your dog at all. Take it in cross wind and as soon as it hit's scent, pop the bird. Let the bird teach the dog how to get it, you be the bird. Thing with remote's is you have to control the situation. Know exactly where you planted the bird, do not guess! Know where the wind is coming from, do not guess. Knowing exactly where the bird is and a good idea of where the scent is helps you know when the dog is likely to hit scent. if your dog is getting in to close to the bird but out of the scent cone, even if you only expect it's out of the scent cone, pop the bird with the dog still out about ten yds max. Don't play games like that. You have to play the part of the wild bird, do it. The wild bird will not give the dog all these liberty's. Only trainer's will!

So if your using the check cord and the remote, take the knot out of your end of the check cord and let your dog drag it. That is a 20' extension of your arm. Turn the dog loose to learn! Make each situation as close to a real live bird contact as you can. If your dog come's in up wind but maybe 10 yds off, pop the bird it can't smell then. A lot of guy's have bird dogs they never taught a thing to other than riding with their head out the window. And their dogs do very well with nothing more than exposure to wild birds. The draw back it that wild birds will not accommodate your training program by being there in good number's or always where you expect to find birds. The remote lets your do exactly that! There is always a bird in the field and you know exactly where it is, you know how the wind is going though it. You never have to put your dog down in an MTY field unless you want to. And if there is a wild bird or two in there that you don't know about, so much the better. The wild bird is gonna do a better job of teaching your dog than most trainer's even though they have a remote or two. The trainer will hope that the dog will stop on the next step, they often give the dog the benefit of the doubt, wild bird won't do that. Think about that remote trap and how to make a pigeon act like a game bird and your there if you simply do the same thing's the wild bird would do. Far to many people think they way into problems with their dog because they just know they must be doing something to help the dog and they are right, they just go about it in a bad way. Build the strength up in your thumb and learn to keep your mouth shut, that will give you a bird dog you can hunt with.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Great explanation Don. I know I'd have a pup dive on the tucked wing bird and have a train wreck. Your way is the best but it takes no second guessing, no benefit of the doubt, just good timing and reaction time.

[Maurice]

Bird in the launcher, remote I assume. Don't rub the bird down wind from the launcher. You are intentionally creating a hot spot to stop the dog on, you don't want to do that. Dog that learns to point a hot spot will, you want the dog to point a bird, do that! What you want is a dog that hit's scent and stop's, hit's body scent and stops! Plant a bird with it's wings folded but pop the bird in the trap, what will you do with the bird left with it's wings folded, don't do that. If you have remote launcher's, don't restrain your dog at all. Take it in cross wind and as soon as it hit's scent, pop the bird. Let the bird teach the dog how to get it, you be the bird. Thing with remote's is you have to control the situation. Know exactly where you planted the bird, do not guess! Know where the wind is coming from, do not guess. Knowing exactly where the bird is and a good idea of where the scent is helps you know when the dog is likely to hit scent. if your dog is getting in to close to the bird but out of the scent cone, even if you only expect it's out of the scent cone, pop the bird with the dog still out about ten yds max. Don't play games like that. You have to play the part of the wild bird, do it. The wild bird will not give the dog all these liberty's. Only trainer's will!

So if your using the check cord and the remote, take the knot out of your end of the check cord and let your dog drag it. That is a 20' extension of your arm. Turn the dog loose to learn! Make each situation as close to a real live bird contact as you can. If your dog come's in up wind but maybe 10 yds off, pop the bird it can't smell then. A lot of guy's have bird dogs they never taught a thing to other than riding with their head out the window. And their dogs do very well with nothing more than exposure to wild birds. The draw back it that wild birds will not accommodate your training program by being there in good number's or always where you expect to find birds. The remote lets your do exactly that! There is always a bird in the field and you know exactly where it is, you know how the wind is going though it. You never have to put your dog down in an MTY field unless you want to. And if there is a wild bird or two in there that you don't know about, so much the better. The wild bird is gonna do a better job of teaching your dog than most trainer's even though they have a remote or two. The trainer will hope that the dog will stop on the next step, they often give the dog the benefit of the doubt, wild bird won't do that. Think about that remote trap and how to make a pigeon act like a game bird and your there if you simply do the same thing's the wild bird would do. Far to many people think they way into problems with their dog because they just know they must be doing something to help the dog and they are right, they just go about it in a bad way. Build the strength up in your thumb and learn to keep your mouth shut, that will give you a bird dog you can hunt with.

Ditto.. Great post Don

Mo

[mtlhdr]

Thanks very much for the replies. DonF thanks for the additional detail. As for us, I am working with an 11 mo old GSP. Honestly right now I am just getting him bird contacts in a controlled setting (no out-of-season training on wild birds in CA). If he lets me walk in and pop the bird (with remote), I shoot it for him. The "hotspot" I create is immediately in front of the launcher, in my view its indistinguishable from the actual bird (which is about 2 ft upwind). My reasoning, perhaps faulty, was to help with scenting conditions and to to give a little buffer from the launcher. I'll try without brushing the bird next time.

On Sunday, I started him about 200 yards from the launcher, no check cord, and let him work the wind. At about 30 or so yards he got a good whiff of the bird. Stalking now, he made a beeline for the bird, and locked up at about 10-12 yards. I was prepared to launch the bird he got any closer or took another step. I walked and past him to the bird, gave it another ten or so seconds (he didn't move), launched and shot the bird.

If I am interpreting Don's post correctly, I should have popped the bird as soon as he started stalking, right? Help me understand why I pop the bird as soon as it's scented? At what point do I allow him to establish a point and pop the bird if he moves? My "plan" is simply to get him around a few more birds and get us to the wild bird season without me screwing up, hunt him hard, shoot only birds he handles correctly, and see where we are at at the end of the season.

Thanks again.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I think in a wild bird situation, the bird will flush when he creeps, stalks and moves closer. Don't teach him that in a training situation.
Just an opinion

[ROTTnBRITT]

You want the dog to learn he need to stop as soon as he smells the bird. Your trying to simulate wild birds with you launcher. And a wild bird will not sit there while the dog creeps in before establishing point.
After you pop the bird on the dog a few times before he establishes point, the dog will realize that he need to stop sooner or the bird will fly.

[pointer]

DonF post is excellent. I also believe that he recommending not using the extra planted bird and I would do the same. If you pop the bird as soon as the dog makes scent but doesn't stop, what keeps the dog from going right in on the planted bird unless the launched bird takes its attention away from the planted bird. That is a variable and potential problem in your training situation that you are not controlling which is never good. Your trying to control the situation with the launcher as a wild bird as Don has mentioned.

If you wish to increase your effectiveness with the launchers, you must consider the cover and launcher placement within the cover as a very important consideration. Grasses are high and thick in the summer months in many parts of the country and really restrict air flow at ground level. Consider putting your launchers in the edges of row crops or tall weeds with more open spacing than thick grass will usually provide good air flow. Also, promoting air flow to the launcher by having lighter cover upwind will help with scent flow from the launcher. In thick grass, I like to place the launchers on milk crates where they still can't be seen but air movement is better. This helps to promote pointing from further away and also gives the extra room to allow the launcher to go off away from the dog or if the dog charges the launcher hard. If you like to work the dog in the woods or brush, you can also plant the launchers higher than ground level to promote better air flow to the launcher and pointing from a further distance.

Allowing the dog to do nothing but slam a point on the launcher is the key. A wild bird will not allow for roading in and neither should the trainer if you can control the situation with a remote launcher.

[mtlhdr]

I have very little experience hunting wild birds with a dog, this being my first dog. I don't have a good feel for how close a bird will tolerate a dog before flushing. I am sure it depends on a lot of factors but at this point it makes sense to be conservative and keep the dog off the bird as far as his nose will allow. Thanks for the additional insight.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I have very little experience hunting wild birds with a dog, this being my first dog. I don't have a good feel for how close a bird will tolerate a dog before flushing. I am sure it depends on a lot of factors but at this point it makes sense to be conservative and keep the dog off the bird as far as his nose will allow. Thanks for the additional insight.

Here's the problem that you run into, some birds may hold tight depending on the weather, cover etc. etc. but the bird decides when to leave and nothing else. Teach you dog to stand still when he first scents the bird and wait until you flush the bird or release your dog to relocate him.

FWIW

[deseeker]

I have very little experience hunting wild birds with a dog, this being my first dog. I don't have a good feel for how close a bird will tolerate a dog before flushing. I am sure it depends on a lot of factors but at this point it makes sense to be conservative and keep the dog off the bird as far as his nose will allow. Thanks for the additional insight.

Here's the problem that you run into, some birds may hold tight depending on the weather, cover etc. etc. but the bird decides when to leave and nothing else. Teach you dog to stand still when he first scents the bird and wait until you flush the bird or release your dog to relocate him.

FWIW

+1

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

If you pop the bird as soon as the dog makes scent but doesn't stop, what keeps the dog from going right in on the planted bird unless the launched bird takes its attention away from the planted bird. That is a variable and potential problem in your training situation that you are not controlling which is never good.

Run the dog on a check cord until he reliably points the bird. The checkcord is your control. If the dog moves after he points, launch the bird. This teaches him that creeping doesn't work for him. The bird(s) in the air will get his attention. I generally run this drill twice with 1 planted bird, and 2 flyers. 1 in each launcher, or sometimes 2 quail in each launcher. You can also program multiple launchers to fire simultaneously to simulate a covey. While electronic launchers are pretty reliable there is still room for human error. Forgetting to set one or not setting it properly will happen at some point. Weak batteries and safety pins are two other potential problems to watch for.

Nate

[DonF]

There is a program I used to use on my dogs that will stop a dog. My setter's are to cautious and won't relocate so not so good on them. When you get your dog on a bird and it's off 20 or so yards, relocate the dog right into the bird. The dog hits about ten yards, pop the bird. What you'll end up with is a dog that will get so close and no closer. Worked to our advantage during our trial days. Sue, the ex, would be out scouting and if she found the dog, first thing she'd do is relocate the dog. Whistle two times thru her teeth. If the dog didn't relocate we knew there was a bird there for sure. If the dog went, the bird had run out and would be down shortly. I never rode to a non productive. To use it on wild birds, simply let the wild bird teach the dog how close it can get. The point of the exercise when I started doing that was to have the dog stand firm when really on a bird. Strong body scent and the dog doesn't move. Edge of the scent cone or a hot spot, if the dog would establish then send it in if you know exactly where the bird is. Kind of like putting an fence between the bird and the dog that the bird will not allow the dog to violate. But Squirt and Bodie don't relocate; I don't know why! But then they don't point hot sport either so I guess it's alright.

[roaniecowpony]

If you pop the bird as soon as the dog makes scent but doesn't stop, what keeps the dog from going right in on the planted bird unless the launched bird takes its attention away from the planted bird. That is a variable and potential problem in your training situation that you are not controlling which is never good.

Run the dog on a check cord until he reliably points the bird. The checkcord is your control. If the dog moves after he points, launch the bird. This teaches him that creeping doesn't work for him. The bird(s) in the air will get his attention. I generally run this drill twice with 1 planted bird, and 2 flyers. 1 in each launcher, or sometimes 2 quail in each launcher. You can also program multiple launchers to fire simultaneously to simulate a covey. While electronic launchers are pretty reliable there is still room for human error. Forgetting to set one or not setting it properly will happen at some point. Weak batteries and safety pins are two other potential problems to watch for.

Nate

I've had transmitter faults where the launchers failed to launch last time out. I ended up kicking the 3 launchers open, but couldn't hold the checkcord. Fortunately, the dog held steady.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

If you pop the bird as soon as the dog makes scent but doesn't stop, what keeps the dog from going right in on the planted bird unless the launched bird takes its attention away from the planted bird. That is a variable and potential problem in your training situation that you are not controlling which is never good.

Run the dog on a check cord until he reliably points the bird. The checkcord is your control. If the dog moves after he points, launch the bird. This teaches him that creeping doesn't work for him. The bird(s) in the air will get his attention. I generally run this drill twice with 1 planted bird, and 2 flyers. 1 in each launcher, or sometimes 2 quail in each launcher. You can also program multiple launchers to fire simultaneously to simulate a covey. While electronic launchers are pretty reliable there is still room for human error. Forgetting to set one or not setting it properly will happen at some point. Weak batteries and safety pins are two other potential problems to watch for.

Nate

Nine times out of ten it is low batteries. If the V is not 9, U will have failures.


I've had transmitter faults where the launchers failed to launch last time out. I ended up kicking the 3 launchers open, but couldn't hold the checkcord. Fortunately, the dog held steady.

[4dabirds]

Dogs being very pliable, I ask this question of people who train their dog to see the launched bird as a negative. Is it not possible to train the dog to see the launched bird as a positive reward? If dogs learn by association and you are training the dog to see the launched bird as a loss for roading in on the bird. then the dog has made the association that its movement caused the bird to fly away. In this case you are making the assumption that the dog is not rewarded by the birds flight. Maybe through actions of your own you may need to communicate to the dog that what it has done is the wrong thing. Say a nick with the collar or a jerk on the cord. Take the same situation and launch the bird as soon as the dog stops. Then communicate to the dog that what it has done is a good thing . The dog then learns that the act of stopping and standing still is a good thing that is rewarding to the dog. The message to the dog is positive in the presence of the bird and the dog sees it in a positive manner. No chance of negativity with the bird. I will wait for the accusations of heresy with baited breath My second comment has to do with the idea of using a scent bird away from the launcher. The whole idea that the dog is learning to hunt in a natural way using launchers to mimmic a wild bird is what I would call bogus.Yes you can control the situation in a similar fashion , but wild birds do not smell like your feet put hem there , they do not smell like metal lubricating oil and batteries. The dog may have a brain the size of a lemon but it can smell one from a long way off. At the point in which you are training a dog to be steady on point you are in no way training it to hunt. If you think that you are beating mother nature at her own game you are just kidding yourself. In due time the dog will train itself to hunt ,through millennia of evolution dogs have got this in their DNA. What you are training is a behavior that the dog will realize, through consistent repetition ,is rewarding to the dog. Dogs live for reward as it is in their DNA as well. Once the behavior is solidified the dog is allowed to hunt and since it is now programed to see this behavior as beneficial it will repeat the behavior when it is working out all the other details of the hunt such as live bird dead bird, old scent new scent. working the wind and cover. I believe we can guide a dog to certain realization but the dog is a lot better at it then we will ever be. So my point is that the scent bird is not representative of anything other then keeping the bird away from the launcher and all its pitfalls. Obviously when using any of these drills wether the use of a scent bird or not the trainer needs to be in control of the dog since at this point the dog is not ready to handle birds .

[gonehuntin']

Dogs being very pliable, I ask this question of people who train their dog to see the launched bird as a negative. Is it not possible to train the dog to see the launched bird as a positive reward? .

The launched bird is a negative only if the dog's movement causes the flight of the bird. When the dog is steady through the launch, I will shoot the bird and that then becomes his reward for his steadiness.