Kennel training

[4dabirds]

If a dog needs to be burned to the pile to show competitive promise, would it not be better to have bred a dog that did not need this treatment to become a so called champion ? And if a dog that has had this treatment is bred ,as some sort of specimen of the breed , isn't this the antithesis of the whole idea of the competition in the first place?

You don't understand the concept. No dog has to be "burned to the pile". They are burned to the pile so that they never, ever, refuse to go, no matter how cold the water, how big the water, or how tight the marks.

So the dogs that are trained this way, don't have to be, it is to ensure command compliance under the most rigorous of test situations.

My friend has a poodle pointer. Its drive for retrieving is so great that I think the dog would run through fire to get to a bumper let alone a bird. My point is it was bred to do that. My dog has no great desire to retrieve . Once he was force retrieve trained he has a perfect retrieve with great enthusiasm. The way I see it is that since cover dogs are not expected to retrieve, the trait has not been so important in the minds of breeders trying to win these trials. Maybe I am off base here but it was just a thought that has occurred to me.

[whoadog]

The secret (if there is one) ,Is getting the dog to do what it wants to do , and that thing was actually what you wanted the dog to do! Now that takes ''training''!

x2
Struck squarely on the head! Done properly what is produced is a dog with fire and intensity that performs nearly flawlessly because it believes that is the best way to get feathers in the mouth.

You don't understand the concept. No dog has to be "burned to the pile". They are burned to the pile so that they never, ever, refuse to go, no matter how cold the water, how big the water, or how tight the marks.

If you all will be so kind as to bear with me on a lengthy response, I have a story of one trainer and two dogs I believe to be pertinent to the discussion. I worked for a nationally known retriever trainer for about 18 months. He has trained a national champion dog and more FCs than I can count. During one particular training session with his field trial dogs, he set up a double mark and a long blind. The first mark was a dead bird thrown across water and the second was a long, long flyer. He had a bitch that refused to swim and started to run the bank. He recalled her and put her back on the trailer without her getting to pick up any of the birds. It drove her crazy. She howled and scratched and howled some more while we trained other dogs. He had a big dog with loads of desire that wanted the flyer and refused the swim. That dog met "Max" so long he was writhing on the ground and starting to froth at the mouth. When the trainer finally let off on the electricity, he jumped up and sat intently exactly where he was supposed to, ran the session nearly flawlessly and showed absolutely no worse for the wear for a correction that before I saw the results would have thought cruel. At this point the bitch had finally quieted in the trailer. He pulled her out and sent her across the water. She went so hard she was putting out a wake a small boat would have been proud of. What's the point? Burning a dog "to the pile" can be accomplished in different ways. The most successful trainers have the ability to read a dog and understand what forms of pressure will produce the best results. Sometimes it takes physical pressure, sometimes pyschological. I'll return to polmaise at this point and the secret to training: make 'em think what you want is what they want!

[gonehuntin']

The most successful trainers have the ability to read a dog and understand what forms of pressure will produce the best results. Sometimes it takes physical pressure, sometimes pyschological. I'll return to polmaise at this point and the secret to training: make 'em think what you want is what they want!

I agree with that totally. The point also is, that the dog HAS to go when told to go, because no matter how much desire that dog has, there will come a day it won't want to go. So great training is always a blend of the need two: Has to, and Wants to.

[gonehuntin']

The way I see it is that since cover dogs are not expected to retrieve, the trait has not been so important in the minds of breeders trying to win these trials. Maybe I am off base here but it was just a thought that has occurred to me.

I think that is totally true. If you don't use a trait, it diminishes. There are different pointing venues that don't require the retrieve so trainers don't train for it. Makes the dog's easier to steady That's too bad.

[crackerd]

If you all will be so kind as to bear with me on a lengthy response, I have a story of one trainer and two dogs I believe to be pertinent to the discussion.

whoadog I'll bear with you a whole lot longer if you've got more stories like that to relate, and bet Robt. (Polmaise), our friend from Scotland, will do same. Great stuff, informational and I'll risk saying "enlightening" as well insofar as e-collar use.

Bet we could also get gonehuntin' to go through the archives of the Cro-Magnon Chronicle (pre-e-collar era) and tell about the methodology used on field trial retrievers before those kinder kilowatts became available.

MG

[whoadog]

Bet we could also get gonehuntin' to go through the archives of the Cro-Magnon Chronicle (pre-e-collar era) and tell about the methodology used on field trial retrievers before those kinder kilowatts became available.

I used a checkcord and running shoes! But, back in those days I was running 5k and 10k fun runs with my wife. Thank God for tri-tronics! I can't lay hands on a 6 week old puppy these days. Arthiritis sucks. If I get it in my thumb bad enough, I'm finished.

[SanerSoft]

I had the same problem after Hcikox collar conditioned my 6 month old high drive, bold and confident, GWP pup to kennel at a four day seminar I attended. I attended another of his seminars two months later and the moment he took the lead, she shutdown. He handed her back to me proclaiming "I can't work with this dog." She was having flash backs on the collar conditioning he had done. I left the second seminar before it was over.

The best method I have found for teaching "kennel" is by Susan Garret. Check out her DVD "Crate Games". http://www.clickerdogs.com/crate_games.php

For collar conditioning I like Michael Ellis's methods. He takes very seriously the negative consequences that can occur from collar conditioning when it is not done correctly. You can get his DVD at Leerburg.com. The DVD provides clear, concise steps for collar conditioning.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I had the same problem after Hcikox collar conditioned my 6 month old high drive, bold and confident, GWP pup to kennel at a four day seminar I attended. I attended another of his seminars two months later and the moment he took the lead, she shutdown. He handed her back to me proclaiming "I can't work with this dog." She was having flash backs on the collar conditioning he had done. I left the second seminar before it was over.
.

Interesting story. When were these seminars and where? Something seems out of place here.

Nate

[SanerSoft]

The first seminar was in Ohio in April, 2013. The second was a series of four Saturdays in June of this year in Bismarck ND.

In Ohio we were working in an outdoor pavilion with a kennel on the ground. The point being this was a 6 month pup, new enviroment, with 10 people standing around. He asked me to tell the dog to kennel. I did and she did not go in - no big surprize given the age of the dog and all the distractions.

Hickox immediately told me to stop right there, proclaiming either the dog knows how to kennel or she doesn't. He then proceeded to try to get her to kennel using his infamous "bonker", followed by an ear pinch, followed by the e-collar. He keep cranking up the ecollar until she went in, which is what he defines as the proper level.

Remember, he knew this was a dog who had never felt stim from an ecollar prior to that day.

[Maurice]

What's a bonker? I teach 1 seminar a year. We spend 3 days in the field training bird dogs. I have not had 1 person ask me how to teach a dog to kennel in 10 years.

Mo

[cmc274]

I had the same problem after Hcikox collar conditioned my 6 month old high drive, bold and confident, GWP pup to kennel at a four day seminar I attended. I attended another of his seminars two months later and the moment he took the lead, she shutdown. He handed her back to me proclaiming "I can't work with this dog." She was having flash backs on the collar conditioning he had done. I left the second seminar before it was over.
.

Interesting story. When were these seminars and where? Something seems out of place here.

Nate

It sounds about what everyone else on this thread has been trying to tell the original poster, get a different program. Besides the the three of you that take it for scripture, not a lot of other folks drinking the kool aid.

[UplandJim]

The first seminar was in Ohio in April, 2013. The second was a series of four Saturdays in June of this year in Bismarck ND.

In Ohio we were working in an outdoor pavilion with a kennel on the ground. The point being this was a 6 month pup, new enviroment, with 10 people standing around. He asked me to tell the dog to kennel. I did and she did not go in - no big surprize given the age of the dog and all the distractions.

Hickox immediately told me to stop right there, proclaiming either the dog knows how to kennel or she doesn't. He then proceeded to try to get her to kennel using his infamous "bonker", followed by an ear pinch, followed by the e-collar. He keep cranking up the ecollar until she went in, which is what he defines as the proper level.

Remember, he knew this was a dog who had never felt stim from an ecollar prior to that day.

Sounds like a lovely training technique.

[polmaise]

Bet we could also get gonehuntin' to go through the archives of the Cro-Magnon Chronicle (pre-e-collar era) and tell about the methodology used on field trial retrievers before those kinder kilowatts became available.

I used a checkcord and running shoes! But, back in those days I was running 5k and 10k fun runs with my wife. Thank God for tri-tronics! I can't lay hands on a 6 week old puppy these days. Arthiritis sucks. If I get it in my thumb bad enough, I'm finished.

I done the same whoadog' in the early years ,but soon found out ''much like the dog' that all this running aint gettin us nowhere fast!
Took a different approach though, purely because of the laws over here and found that 'psychology' of the dog working it out themselves and having a good old hamlet' cigar while they do, is a more relaxing way to teach them critters what they all ready know !..when they choose not to?, I usually call the happy crew on forums for fun.

[4dabirds]

The first seminar was in Ohio in April, 2013. The second was a series of four Saturdays in June of this year in Bismarck ND.

In Ohio we were working in an outdoor pavilion with a kennel on the ground. The point being this was a 6 month pup, new enviroment, with 10 people standing around. He asked me to tell the dog to kennel. I did and she did not go in - no big surprize given the age of the dog and all the distractions.

Hickox immediately told me to stop right there, proclaiming either the dog knows how to kennel or she doesn't. He then proceeded to try to get her to kennel using his infamous "bonker", followed by an ear pinch, followed by the e-collar. He keep cranking up the ecollar until she went in, which is what he defines as the proper level.

Remember, he knew this was a dog who had never felt stim from an ecollar prior to that day.

I attended two hickox seminars and what you are describing is not what he has taught me. In fact it is the exact opposite. Maybe he just did not like you. At one seminar he had a dog that was case hardened to the collar . The owner stated that there was no way he could get the dog in the kennel . He said it took he and his wife together to put the dog in the kennel every night. This owner had this dog up to full power with his tri tronics and the dog would refuse any command and stand perfectly still as he was being shocked. When I tell you stand still I mean would not even flinch. After about a half an hour the dog was entering the kennel on low stimulation , about a four on the dt collar. The owner had a dog he could work with at the end of the seminar. His previous dogs were trained with the owners original technique and both were hit by a car after chasing a deer across a highway. My point is and has been on this post that what the op was doing was not the intention of the drill to begin with. And the training that george was doing with the dog at this seminar was remedial work to rectify the mistake of the owner. The kennel was being used to reintroduce the e-collar in an effective way. It sounds to me that what you describe in your post is more of the latter.

[4dabirds]

Had another thought on this . When George does this part of his seminar he asks "Does anybody have a dog that is trained on the kennel command that has not been collar conditioned" If some one responds that the dog knows the kennel command he is taking the person at their word. If the dog does not respond to the command at that moment he can not work with the dog because it was not properly trained on the command. If the dog was not trained it was not ready for the pressure. This may be the reason for the misunderstanding of what was actually happening. Sanersoft surely misread the dog as well as the trainer.

[Meller]

Had another thought on this . When George does this part of his seminar he asks "Does anybody have a dog that is trained on the kennel command that has not been collar conditioned" If some one responds that the dog knows the kennel command he is taking the person at their word. If the dog does not respond to the command at that moment he can not work with the dog because it was not properly trained on the command. If the dog was not trained it was not ready for the pressure. This may be the reason for the misunderstanding of what was actually happening. Sanersoft surely misread the dog as well as the trainer.

I think you need to reread his post.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

The first seminar was in Ohio in April, 2013. The second was a series of four Saturdays in June of this year in Bismarck ND.

In Ohio we were working in an outdoor pavilion with a kennel on the ground. The point being this was a 6 month pup, new enviroment, with 10 people standing around. He asked me to tell the dog to kennel. I did and she did not go in - no big surprize given the age of the dog and all the distractions.

Hickox immediately told me to stop right there, proclaiming either the dog knows how to kennel or she doesn't. He then proceeded to try to get her to kennel using his infamous "bonker", followed by an ear pinch, followed by the e-collar. He keep cranking up the ecollar until she went in, which is what he defines as the proper level.

Remember, he knew this was a dog who had never felt stim from an ecollar prior to that day.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this story. I attended a Hickox seminar in Minnesota in 2005. This was a few years before the clicker was in the picture. I had my 8 month old ESS with me. He had never had an e-collar on. My pup had been previously introduced to the kennel, and would go in reasonably well when commanded. I believe it was day 3 of a 5 day seminar that George did the kennel command with him. The pup was put on a check cord and told kennel and led into the kennel several times. Show pups. No e-collar stimulation was used at this stage. When George did introduce the pup to stimulation, he first checked the dogs level. He did this by beginning with a level 1 with a DT collar. The level was increased one level at a time until the pup showed a sign of feeling the stimulation. Which was a 5. The pup could actually feel a level 1, but showed no sign of it at first. The kennel command was then done at a level 5 until the pup would go in on stimulation alone. The sequence used was Stimulation / Command ; Stimulation ; and then Command followed by Stimulation. This was accomplished after 3-4 training sessions. When the pup would reliably go into the kennel 80 % of the time without stimulation, he tested the pup by taking a step back, turning the kennel 90 degrees, etc... Generalizing the command until the pup was going in reliably and enthusiastically. There was very little pressure, sessions were kept short and the pup showed no sign of apprehension.

As I recall there were several dogs done on the kennel command during this seminar. None with any adverse effects. There were a few dogs that did not make it to that stage however. One English Setter was blinking birds badly so focus was on field work and less on yard work. By day 5 George had the dog beginning to turn the corner, and the dog had a much more positive attitude around birds. One 2 year old lab that looked like a total basket case was turned into a confident dog that was carrying a lock wing pigeon around by the 5th day. No one left the seminar disappointed, as far as I know. I remember one guy had a dog that was probably not going to ever become a bird dog, but he still seemed to overcome this and learn some things.

I attended a second Hickox seminar in 2008 near Denver, CO. This seminar was much different than the first, in that the clicker was used to teach behaviors before any e-collar training was done. Carol Brown, George's new assistant and current puppy program leader, was there to help out. She did a demonstration with a 12 week old English Pointer that was absolutely amazing. That pup would go into a kennel, stand on place boards and walk down a 2x4 board like a little circus dog. With nothing more in hand than a clicker and a few pieces of hotdog. Call it kool aid or what you will, but I was and still am sold on this process. There were a handful of students that didn't buy into the clicker, but none left the seminar empty handed or disappointed. All but one guy, but there always seems to be that one guy.

The third Hickox seminar I attended was in Delta, CO in 2009. This was the first year he did 4 day seminars. I was recruited as a bird steward/assistant/bird boy for that one. I can tell you from experience that George has much higher expectations of repeat students and assistants than he does of first time students. Temps were in the 90's every day which caused low attendance numbers. We were forced to start early and finish late in the day in order to run dogs in the field. Fortunately we had a good indoor area to work. George was also able to begin a dog on my portable force fetch bench. My friend's lab, that I had started working with at 10 weeks.

George also introduced the "bonker" at this seminar, but hardly in the way that was described in this quoted post. Rather he explained its use in the same manner that animal behavior expert, Gary Wilkes, showed him. http://www.clickandtreat.com The bonker is a rolled up towel that is fastened together with duct tape. When the dog exhibits an undesired behavior, such as jumping up on someone, he is notified with the command NO! The bonker is then thrown at the dog. This does little more than startle the dog, and make it reconsider repeating the undesired behavior in the future. One or two corrections usually has a lasting effect. This is the only way I've ever used the bonker or heard its use described. George never actually bonked a dog for any undesirable behaviors during this seminar, and he certainly never use it to correct a dog for not going into a kennel. In fact every dog learned to enthusiastically go into a kennel by the clicker process during this seminar.

Nate

[SanerSoft]

Mo - George Hickox's bonker is a rolled up towel that he hurls at the dog. He teaches that "dogs hate missiles". He uses it as a correction method.

[SanerSoft]

4dabirds writes I attended two hickox seminars and what you are describing is not what he has taught me. In fact it is the exact opposite. Maybe he just did not like you.

So... for your dog's sake, make sure George Hickox likes you before attending his seminars. Actually I think you are on to something. I had specifically requested in an email to him before the seminar that an ecollar not be used on my dog at the seminar. He may have been showing me who was in charge.

Bottom line is if you are going to attend his seminars, make sure you know what you are getting "your dog" into. Or go without a dog if think you like his training techniques. In my opinion, there are far better way methods to train dogs obedience and bird work.

For obedience, Michael Ellis is great. He has a very balanced approach. He has the handler develop a communication system with the dog using three voice markers.

1. "Yes" is used to tell the dog they did what you wanted. This is followed by reward and release from the activity. This has the same function as a clicker (Hickox prefers the clicker). I like Yes because it is always with me where as I may not always have a clicker.

2. "Good" is used to tell the dog to keep doing what they are doing. When using "good", you deliver the reward to the dog.(works great for whoa training)

3. ""No or Nope " is used as a negative marker to tell the dog that is not what you want them to do

Here is an example of using this method to teach whoa. You walk your dog onto a board - you say Yes and give the dog a treat - while the dog is standing on the board you start walking around them repeating good and delivering treats to the dog. If the dog moves, say "No", put them back and continue with good and treats if they stay.

[4dabirds]

That is the broadest over simplification of dog training I have heard of. Dogs are motivated to please themselves . The dog is motivated by food but when game is present that is the motivator. All training is based on the dogs interaction of itself and the trainer, but only relative to the dogs motivation. Lets say for instance you have a dog that has been subjected to an improper introduction to birds ,guns, e-collar conditioning. What do you do then. What if you want the dog to not only be steady to wing and shot but to retrieve. If you want to have a dog that stops on a dime at your command. To compare one persons program to another based only the idea that the e-collar is not necessary with very little understanding of that persons program or dog training in general is a fools game. While I agree that dogs can be trained to a certain level with out the e-collar , It would depend on many factors wether this is better than that. The dogs motivation for game for instance is a great determiner of how to proceed in any program. While I have great respect for what george has done with his program , I also have great respect for the Higgins method of training dogs. The thing here is that one is not necessarily better then the other. They are both great methods that result in a well trained dog. The thing with the Higgins method is it would not work well for someone like me who is hunting on small parcels of land that require an iron clad whoa command to keep the dog from running out into a road. The important thing here to understand is that there are many different methods out there, but you should learn something about what you are talking about before you criticize . Your opinion is based entirely upon your predisposition against e-collars. It is obvious after reading your post that you are greatly confused. Approach this game with an open mind and not only ask how but ask why. Why is an important factor , and the most complex part of the game. Go to the Higgins site and watch some of his videos http://higginsgundogs.com/ . Then ask the question why it works. Do some more research on why Georges works. But understand what it is that is happening, in the dogs mind ,and stop worrying about your own.

[SanerSoft]

That is the broadest over simplification of dog training I have heard of. Dogs are motivated to please themselves . .. Do some more research on why Georges works. But understand what it is that is happening, in the dogs mind ,and stop worrying about your own.

It sounds like we just need to agree to disagree. Lack of research on my part is not the issue. I already told you I have been to 8 days of Hickox seminars. I attended a seminar by Rick Smith, did a three month online course on training the recall with positiive reenforcement, a two month online course on shaping dog behaviors with positive reenforcement. I have already read four books on bird dog training and watch numerous dog training videos. Knowledge his what is forming my opinions.

I am not adverse to the ecollar, I earlier referecenced Michael Eillis's video for ecollar condition which is a far "safer" method of collar conditioning.

Remember this post was started because a dog would not come out of it's kennel after being collar conditioned using the Hickox method of collar conditioning. I had the same experience (only amplied with residual responses when the conditioning enviroment was recreated) when the conditioning was done by George Hickox himself. This reaction from the dog might be ok with you as a part of the collar conditioning process but it is not ok with me.

[big swill]

That is the broadest over simplification of dog training I have heard of. Dogs are motivated to please themselves . The dog is motivated by food but when game is present that is the motivator. All training is based on the dogs interaction of itself and the trainer, but only relative to the dogs motivation. Lets say for instance you have a dog that has been subjected to an improper introduction to birds ,guns, e-collar conditioning. What do you do then. What if you want the dog to not only be steady to wing and shot but to retrieve. If you want to have a dog that stops on a dime at your command. To compare one persons program to another based only the idea that the e-collar is not necessary with very little understanding of that persons program or dog training in general is a fools game. While I agree that dogs can be trained to a certain level with out the e-collar , It would depend on many factors wether this is better than that. The dogs motivation for game for instance is a great determiner of how to proceed in any program. While I have great respect for what george has done with his program , I also have great respect for the Higgins method of training dogs. The thing here is that one is not necessarily better then the other. They are both great methods that result in a well trained dog. The thing with the Higgins method is it would not work well for someone like me who is hunting on small parcels of land that require an iron clad whoa command to keep the dog from running out into a road. The important thing here to understand is that there are many different methods out there, but you should learn something about what you are talking about before you criticize . Your opinion is based entirely upon your predisposition against e-collars. It is obvious after reading your post that you are greatly confused. Approach this game with an open mind and not only ask how but ask why. Why is an important factor , and the most complex part of the game. Go to the Higgins site and watch some of his videos http://higginsgundogs.com/ . Then ask the question why it works. Do some more research on why Georges works. But understand what it is that is happening, in the dogs mind ,and stop worrying about your own.

I've not posted on here in awhile and have been reading this thread with great interest in the responses. There is a lot in this post in particular that I agree with, specifically the ask why statement. Anyone who doesn't ask why a method, technique, etc. is used or is successful isn't getting the whole picture. There is no method by anyone that is flawless and fail proof because every dog is not the same. Most people say that but then only try to train using one method. Every "method" I've ever seen is a generalized way of training. If you're not willing to shamelessly steal ideas and techniques from anyone and everyone you're short changing yourself in the long run as a trainer. Subscribing to one successful trainer exclusively limits your bag of tricks. No trainer has it neither all right nor all wrong.

As far as Michael Ellis's e- collar techniques go, he probably is a little "softer" than most with an e-collar. Michael competes and trains mostly in bite/protection sports. In every one of those venues the dogs are judged, in part, on enthusiasm in the work. The e- collar comes in later rather than sooner and used as more of a proofing tool. Trainers in those venues are parannoyed about "capping" a dog's drive so they tend not to beat the dog up at all on the obedience training. but make no mistake, the dogs Michael personally owns are more dog than most people ever want to own, and he has had to have "come to Jesus" meetings with them.

I also agree with the statement that dogs are self pleasing. I always chuckle when people tell me "Oh this dog really wants to please me". No, it doesn't. Dogs eventually tend to figure out that the path to get to what they want goes through the handler/ trainer. I've said it 100 times since I've been into bird dogs, if a dog wanted to please you force fetching would not be necessary.

There is only one absolute truth in dog training and it's this: The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third guy is doing wrong.

[Neil]

This personal attack on a well respected trainer by name makes me very uncomfortable. I am certain there is another side to the story. George did not get where he is by abusing dogs.

[Chukar12]

I agree that something is amiss in this description...Hickox did not simply ask someone to command their dog to kennel and burn it for lack of compliance. His personality and or methods may not suit some people but he knows behavior and training and would not conduct himself with the dog as described.

He may have shown some open disdain or frustration with a human..but I am more than comfortable saying not the dog.

[SanerSoft]

This is not a personal attack. It is an open honest recap of what happened with my dog at a Geroge Hickox seminar. If you gents only want to hear the good stuff you should simply watch the George Hickox videos.

[Luminary Setters]

I guess I'm a little confused..., if you didn't want him to use a e-collar on your dog, why did you let him? And, if he messed the dog up with the collar at the first seminar, why would you attend another one?

[Chukar12]

Sanersoft

It did not happen that way. George Hickox did not correct your dog or use corrective tools without having a great deal of confidence that the dog knew exactly what it was to be doing. Whether you are an exceptionally poor communicator, have an agenda, or both will be evident soon enough. I know him and the other trainer you mentioned through personal interaction, and they both know a great deal about dogs. You say in your bio you want to learn all you can....based on what you have presented so far you are off to a poor start. This method or that one may resonate more with an individual and therefore increase a persons odds of effective execution... But a closed mind and a victim mentality is a big handicap for a dog trainer to overcome.

[SanerSoft]

I guess I'm a little confused..., if you didn't want him to use a e-collar on your dog, why did you let him? And, if he messed the dog up with the collar at the first seminar, why would you attend another one?

I should not have attended the second seminar. I made a big mistake and it cost both my dog and I.

[SanerSoft]

Sanersoft

It did not happen that way.

Were you at the seminar?

[Chukar12]

No SS...no I wasn't. That is certainly a logical retort that explains your completely out of character, nonsensical rendition of what a well respected dog trainer did in a seminar. So if my reading comprehension has not failed me, this pro dog trainer took a dog and stood him by a plastic crate and asked you the handler to give the command " kennel " an English word, that he had no idea whether the dog understood or not, and then corrected said dog for non compliance?

You are right...that's horrible. I am sure Brad will be able to help you.

You know, I have met quite a few trainers and pro handlers. Someone made the comment that the only thing two dog trainers will agree upon is that the third is doing it wrong. When professionals are confident in themselves I have not found that to be the case. Quite the opposite, the best are usually openly complimentary, and they keep a vigilant eye to see what they can learn.

[SanerSoft]

... So if my reading comprehension has not failed me, this pro dog trainer took a dog and stood him by a plastic crate and asked you the handler to give the command " kennel " an English word, that he had no idea whether the dog understood or not, and then corrected said dog for non compliance?

No, that is not correct. Your reading comprehension has failed you and you should reread my post that detailed what happened.

[Chukar12]

Yeah I looked again, I am comfortable that I am close enough for a sporadic discussion with the gaps you left...I did not read your follow ups until now, they explain it well. You have an opinion of how you want your dog trained and that is what you should get...but I would wager its a moving target no one will ever figure out.

That does not justify you misrepresenting something. It's very clear to me that the dog is capable of learning in multiple techniques and you are capable only the way you see fit. Keep posting, the aforementioned agenda will just get more clear.

[tailcrackin]

You know, I have met quite a few trainers and pro handlers. Someone made the comment that the only thing two dog trainers will agree upon is that the third is doing it wrong. When professionals are confident in themselves I have not found that to be the case. Quite the opposite, the best are usually openly complimentary, and they keep a vigilant eye to see what they can learn.

Big Swill, that is spot on. Thanks Jonesy

[Moulders Farm]

Well I have read enough to tell me not to wast money on a sin or tape by George . I hunted birds & trained my own dogs for 20 years before I bought a e coller even hunted begales on rabbits never had a dog of any breed I could not get to Kennal or box up when the hunt was over . The only time I have ever burnt a dog was when I gave the come back comand to a dog to far out then it was just a hit & off . why mess up a dog you gave good money for & spent so much time raising & training it .

[Neil]

This is not a personal attack. It is an open honest recap of what happened with my dog at a Geroge Hickox seminar. If you gents only want to hear the good stuff you should simply watch the George Hickox videos.

No, it is a very personal attack from your side only. I have no idea how honest you are. I do know Mr. Hickox by reputation, which is top notch, considerd one of the best.

You are a guy hiding behind a keyboard with a fake name and agenda.

It is my hope you are banned from this group,

Neil

[SanerSoft]

That does not justify you misrepresenting something...

There is no misrepresentation. I have accurately described exactly what happened.

[whoadog]

this thread has gone south and i'm done with it

[Meller]

This is not a personal attack. It is an open honest recap of what happened with my dog at a Geroge Hickox seminar. If you gents only want to hear the good stuff you should simply watch the George Hickox videos.

No, it is a very personal attack from your side only. I have no idea how honest you are. I do know Mr. Hickox by reputation, which is top notch, considerd one of the best.

You are a guy hiding behind a keyboard with a fake name and agenda.

It is my hope you are banned from this group,

Neil

No need to kill the messenger; I'm sure Mr. Hickox knows what is going on here and if wanted to can defend himself. Would be nice if someone else from the seminar would share their view on what happened.

[Chukar12]

I will let this go after saying this...I have no doubts there are bits of accurate detail in this account. Just like any story that parts are told the picture we see in our minds will look nothing like the reality of a moment. In the time frame discussed, clicker training would have been employed prior with the kennel command over laid, and the dog would have been enthusiastically entering the box. THEN and only then when it was consistent, an e collar would have been introduced in avoidance style training. BE CLEAR the collar is not used to teach a kennel command, rather kenneling is a safe way for him to introduce the collar. I do acknowledge for the record as I have before, if folks timing isn't good they can have a wreck with avoidance training....the handler and the dog are mutually confused....George doesn't have bad timing or get confused.

Anybody reading this dribble that has trained more than a couple of dogs themselves or is familiar with competent professionals will know that this is not the way ANY of them would approach a dog, employing a collar before a behavior...please. The owners however....I am pretty sure this is what would keep me forever an amateur. As far as professionals knowing what's going on here? There are only a few with the tolerance for this and they should get HOF mentions...the others would read about a paragraph of this, deem it a waste of time and go back to doing what they do without the baggage of the irritation gained from arguing with weekend warriors and the vast experience from the three dogs they have raised.

[big swill]

You know, I have met quite a few trainers and pro handlers. Someone made the comment that the only thing two dog trainers will agree upon is that the third is doing it wrong. When professionals are confident in themselves I have not found that to be the case. Quite the opposite, the best are usually openly complimentary, and they keep a vigilant eye to see what they can learn.

Chuckar12, that is spot on. Thanks Jonesy

I'm the one who said that, but I don't disagree with you, Chuckar, after some thought. I've met several trainers and handlers myself and you're right; for the most part top notch trainers at least know how to check their egos and are helpful. To be honest I guess what I've seen more of is the cronies of other trainers sitting around blasting how others are doing it.

[tailcrackin]

I fixed it on my post, but cant on your quote!! Lol!!
That was good way to put things, IMO, Thanks Jonesy

[Neil]

This is not a personal attack. It is an open honest recap of what happened with my dog at a Geroge Hickox seminar. If you gents only want to hear the good stuff you should simply watch the George Hickox videos.

No, it is a very personal attack from your side only. I have no idea how honest you are. I do know Mr. Hickox by reputation, which is top notch, considerd one of the best.

You are a guy hiding behind a keyboard with a fake name and agenda.

It is my hope you are banned from this group,

Neil

No need to kill the messenger; I'm sure Mr. Hickox knows what is going on here and if wanted to can defend himself. Would be nice if someone else from the seminar would share their view on what happened.

Messinger? Without verification it is unfounded accusations. And if it costs George even one customer it is wrong. As you suggest, if it did happen surely one witness would come forward.

Neil

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

No need to kill the messenger; I'm sure Mr. Hickox knows what is going on here and if wanted to can defend himself. Would be nice if someone else from the seminar would share their view on what happened.

Messinger? Without verification it is unfounded accusations. And if it costs George even one customer it is wrong. As you suggest, if it did happen surely one witness would come forward.

Neil

X2
You beat me to that one Neil.

I wanted to call BS on sanersoft's original post, but elected to prop and leave the door open for more drivel. This may have been a mistake, but at least it led to more revealing information.

By the way sanersoft, George Hickox and Rick Smith have the utmost respect for one another, and many people who post here respect them both as well.

Nate

[Neil]

A quick Hickox story. About ten years ago I wrote 3 or 4 articles on Buddy Smith and the Buddy Stick for Field Trial Magazine and American Field. George read them or heard about them, so he made a special trip to Collierville, TN to check it out. I don't think he adopted the Stick, but the point is he was willing to learn before judging. His ego does not seem to get in the way.

I have known Delmar and Rick Smith since 1974 and I have never heard either say anything negaive about another trainer.

Neil

[SanerSoft]

A quick Hickox story. About ten years ago I wrote 3 or 4 articles on Buddy Smith and the Buddy Stick for Field Trial Magazine and American Field. George read them or heard about them, so he made a special trip to Collierville, TN to check it out. I don't think he adopted the Stick, but the point is he was willing to learn before judging. His ego does not seem to get in the way. Neil

I can confirm Geoge uses that buddy stick and I personally say it used at both of his seminars.

[SanerSoft]

So in conclusion, unless members plan to post flowery compliments on this forum about their experiences with pro trainers they should be prepared to be subjected to intimidation, called a liar, and a coward (Neils hiding behind a keyboard comment) or simply uneducated about dog training.

George Hickox and Rick Smith are proud of their training methods and hardly need you Neil on this forum trying to intimidate posters in their defense. During the Rick Smith seminar I was at he even told a story about his being taken to court over his methods being cruel (the judge through the case out of course). The intensity of their methods obviously get results as evidenced by their success's.

But training methods don't alway go as planned and when they go bad it can have a life long effect on the dog. If you are a pro trainer and they work on 80% of the dogs you are super star. The other 20% are found a nice home as a farm dog or are simply sent back to the owner. Pro trainers don't talk about the errors in seminars and video tapes. At least I have never seen or heard it.

As a guy training his own dogs, I want to error to the other extreme and I will train using softer more cautious methods.

[Neil]

It was identifying the trainer by name while remaining anonymous that made me uncomfortable.

I respect your traing philosophy, not you personal attacks.

Neil

[SanerSoft]

It was identifying the trainer by name while remaining anonymous that made me uncomfortable.

I respect your traing philosophy, not you personal attacks.

Neil

This thread started with quackwacker writing "I am using the Hickox training program for my lab. She is 7 months old. She is great at going into the kennel. My problem is that she doesn't like to come out some times. Is this normal in the beginning?

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Wow! You guys make dog training sound so hard. It's really a lot simpler than all that. Too many gadgets and gimmicks. All you really need is a pinch collar, a check cord and a e collar. Course I'm a Dave Walker guy.

Doug

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

+1 Doug the simpler the better IMO!!But then I'm a simple kinda guy. I don't even own a Cell phone!