Kennel training

[quackwhacker]

I am using the Hickox training program for my lab. She is 7 months old. She is great at going into the kennel. My problem is that she doesn't like to come out some times. Is this normal in the beginning?

[SpringerDude]

I am not totally familiar with Hickox program. Are you going through the process of collar conditioning? You give the dog a stimulus and the kennel command. The collar is turned off when the dog enters the kennel. Is this correct?

Like I said, I am not real familiar with the program and it has been a while since I saw the video.

[quackwhacker]

That is correct. But I have to drag her out.

[Kiki]

I'm guessing she figured out the kennel is her safe zone. When she's in there she doesnt get nicked.

[NLsetter]

Only kennel training I have ever had to do is cover with a blanket and feed the dog every meal in the kennel. When I put food in the kennel I give the command "load up" Is the dog "here" trained? if so open the door and give the command and he should come. If not there is a reason he has been conditioned to be fear full to come out. Has he messed in the kennel or chewed up blanket or bed and been disciplined as soon as he gets out?

[Neil]

It happens, usualy when too high a stimulus was used. She will recover, just ignore her for awhile, give her a rest from training.

[SpringerDude]

I'm guessing she figured out the kennel is her safe zone. When she's in there she doesnt get nicked.

Yep. That's what I was thinking but wanted to know what had caused it. If I understand the system, the process is about teaching the dog to turn the stimulus on and off, not necessarily to teach Kennel. Obey the command and the stimulus is removed.

Now, when she is in the kennel and you say here and nick her, she is really going to be confused. 7 mths old and she really doesn't have a good understanding on where the training is heading. You might want to get with someone that has been through this before and get some assurance you are heading in the right direction. You might think you are doing things just like the video but if your timing is off, the dog will get confused. You might have other issues pop up which could be much worse.

[Del Lolo]

I don't use Hickox for a Lab (I use Smartwork).
Is the dog ecollar conditioned to HERE ?

[Munster]

I dont think you should have to use a collar to teach a dog to kennel. Try teaching her to kennel with out it if u can. Make it a positive place.

[Neil]

I dont think you should have to use a collar to teach a dog to kennel. Try teaching her to kennel with out it if u can. Make it a positive place.

You clearly do not understand the system.

[Munster]

I dont think you should have to use a collar to teach a dog to kennel. Try teaching her to kennel with out it if u can. Make it a positive place.

You clearly do not understand the system.

I clearly do. But I also know you dont have to use that system to teach Kennel. Teaching kennel is super simple and you dont need to use an ecollar for it.

[Francois P vd Walt]

I dont think you should have to use a collar to teach a dog to kennel. Try teaching her to kennel with out it if u can. Make it a positive place.

You clearly do not understand the system.

+1 AND Evan Graham Smart Fetch! my 2c

[Munster]

I dont think you should have to use a collar to teach a dog to kennel. Try teaching her to kennel with out it if u can. Make it a positive place.

You clearly do not understand the system.

+1 AND Evan Graham Smart Fetch! my 2c

Sooooooooo, because someone doesnt agree that you need to collar condition the dog to a fricken kennel, that means they dont understand the system?

Spoken like true internet jockeys.

[quackwhacker]

This is the beginning of ecoller training. Sit, heal, here are next. I may be over thinking this as it is early in the training. She is very good when in her kennel. I may of had the collar a little hot for the beginning. I will continue to do show pups for sitting and heal and hold off on the collar for a little while. I think I may need some patients. Thanks for your help guys. I will post up some pics.

[4dabirds]

Just to clear things up here. The training the original post is talking about is collar conditioning. It is not supposed to be teaching the kennel command. At this point in the training the dog has already, or should have already learned to go into its kennel with positive reinforcement only. Since the dog is familiar with the kennel command at this point the dog is learning to obey a command to avoid the collar stimulus. This allows the trainer to use the collar for all commands as an avoidance tool, not punishment. The dog obeys the command it avoids the e-collar. Coupling the difference between the e-collar and the reward for compliance makes the reward more significant as well as making the correction more significant. As far as the dog using the kennel as a safe zone during this exercise, this is intentional. When collar conditioning the dog using the kennel as the safe zone, as opposed to collar conditioning on say the here command ,helps to avoid the dog from finding the safe zone when yard training starts and the dog is learning whoa or hup. If the dog is confused when conditioning for these behaviors , it will come back to the owner for the safe one. If the kennel is not present there is no way for the dog to find the safe zone. The issue at hand here is the dog is staying in the kennel to avoid the stimulus and is avoiding the "game" to avoid the stimulus. Do two things. Take a step back and retrain the kennel command using positive reinforcement. Make sure that the dog understands the kennel command in different locations . This is important, as something as small as you standing on the other side of the kennel when saying kennel is enough to throw the dogs ability to understand what is expected. Then using positive reinforcement make coming to you from the kennel a rewardable behavior. Once these things are accomplished the dog is ready for the collar conditioning. Be sure to use only the lowest level the dog feels on the collar for this. As with all commands the dog should be generalized on the command before the e-collar is overlaid. Without this deep understanding of the command the dog only will associate the collar with the cues that it is reading in its environment with the stimulus. The cues could be anything in the area intentional or not and the dog connecting the stimulus and the command will become a crap shoot. This leads to apprehension and confusion. Good luck with the dog its long journey that is very rewarding.

[tailcrackin]

Just as easy to use a bird. Going in, or coming out. Thanks Jonesy

[whoadog]

Just to clear things up here.......Good luck with the dog its long journey that is very rewarding.

One of the most well-written explanations I have ever read on the internet. Kudos to 4dabirds. My questions to the OP are, do you really know what your setting on the collar should be, and, if not, how to figure them out?

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I am using the Hickox training program for my lab. She is 7 months old. She is great at going into the kennel. My problem is that she doesn't like to come out some times. Is this normal in the beginning?

Apparently you are using George's old DVD. Watch the new Great Beginnings DVD for retrievers and you'll be able to better understand 4dabirds post.

If you teach all of the behaviors with click and treat, and make the transition to the e-collar for avoidance training it will go much smoother for you. Establish the desired behavior and generalize kennel, here and heel. Work on sit last, because you need to establish the recall first. The sit command will eventually lead into line steady and steady to wing and shot. Don't use commands in the field until yard work is complete.

Nate

[Kiki]

I've seen several of Hickox videos. In one of them he uses the clicker
to mark the behavior. The collar came later after the dog knew a
learned behavior. My dog is kinda soft, so I didn't start using the collar
until she was 2. Being consistent and praise goes a long way.

[polmaise]

I am using the Hickox training program for my lab. She is 7 months old. She is great at going into the kennel. My problem is that she doesn't like to come out some times. Is this normal in the beginning?

I can't comment on Hickox program,even if I did know it,then all reference would be directed back to it!..If the program isn't working however,then perhaps it doesn't suit you or your dog, or there has been a misunderstanding of the program?
....................
I have a huge problem with my dogs bustin a gut to get out of the kennel every day I take them out! But I programmed them that way

[quackwhacker]

4dabirds hit it on the head.

Whoadog - I have on older tri tronics collar. Levels go from tone to 5. I am using it on 2 as she seems to not feel level 1. She did however yelp on 2 the first time.

I guess I have some decisions to make now. I understand the hickox program, but maybe I need to get the most current one as I have the older dvd. Or maybe I need to go with a different program. I feel we are early enough in the training still. What is the preferred program for a upland/water lab? Thank you so much for the responses.

[polmaise]

Pm 4dabirds ,or better still, go and see them?...they should keep you right without diverse information?

[Neil]

Sooooooooo, because someone doesnt agree that you need to collar condition the dog to a fricken kennel, that means they dont understand the system?

Spoken like true internet jockeys.

[/quote][/quote]

Yes.

[4dabirds]

4dabirds hit it on the head.

Whoadog - I have on older tri tronics collar. Levels go from tone to 5. I am using it on 2 as she seems to not feel level 1. She did however yelp on 2 the first time.

I guess I have some decisions to make now. I understand the hickox program, but maybe I need to get the most current one as I have the older dvd. Or maybe I need to go with a different program. I feel we are early enough in the training still. What is the preferred program for a upland/water lab? Thank you so much for the responses.

I think you should consider a new collar. The levels of stimulation on those collars are not close enough as you rise through them. If a 2 on the collar is making the dog yelp then it is far too hot to use for this purpose. The idea is not to punish the dog in any way ,it is to teach the dog that the dog has the ability to control the stimulus. If the dog barely feels the stimulus it will not have such a negative reaction to the training. Once the dog learns to control the stimulus it has learned that complying to a command avoids it altogether. That coupled with reward for compliance gives the dog an easy choice to make. When the dog is fully understanding what it is that gets reward the dog will approach training with a greater sense of confidence. It is when the dog is confused about what is expected that it has trepidation towards training sessions. As far as what program to use the Hickox program for flushing dogs only covers field work for upland hunting. If this is your expectation stick with it. The thing that I like about the way George trains is that his program will work great, if implemented properly, for any dogs temperament . Since he uses positive reinforcement in the show pups stages of training the dog should understand what is expected before it ever gets any negative reinforcement. If you are planning to work advanced training for retrieving be sure that it falls in line with the type of collar conditioning that you are working on now. The new dvd has some changes that I think make the training process easier for the trainer as well as for the dog.

[quackwhacker]

Great information. Thank you.

[quackwhacker]

Here is a picture of my hunting partners. Thanks again for the info.

[4dabirds]

Nice looking dogs.

[tailcrackin]

What's going be the fix, or helper on the fix, when the kennel area, becomes a hot spot? And dog becomes very nervous around it? Or wants to blink it totally, because it cant do anything right, when it deals with it? Just curious? Thanks Jonesy

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

What's going be the fix, or helper on the fix, when the kennel area, becomes a hot spot? And dog becomes very nervous around it? Or wants to blink it totally, because it cant do anything right, when it deals with it? Just curious? Thanks Jonesy

That's an interesting, but very separate question from what's going on here. The dog has probably been pressured too much, and now doesn't want to leave the kennel. A good example of place orientation. " If I stay in here I won't get in trouble." This is likely what the dog is thinking. Whether the dog was corrected with too much electricity or too much was expected in a training session, its clear that the association was made to go in or else. That is why click and treat is so effective. The dog goes in the kennel for its own gain. The reward is far more pleasing to the dog than to be forced in. The compliance to the command comes after the behavior is already a conditioned response.

You would undoubtedly make the dog apprehensive about the kennel if you corrected it every time it approached. That's why showing the pup what you want is a prerequisite to correction.

Nate

[gonehuntin']

First teach the dog to go in, then teach it to come out. A dog learns three responses: to go away from you (kennel), to stop (whoa or sit), to come (here). They have to perform all three flawlessly. When a dog refuses to come from his kennel it is refusing to come. Period. It has to learn to come to you as well as to go. I de-bolt every dog I own and every dog I ever trained.

[tailcrackin]

I question, what or why, the dog doesn't want to come in or out of the box. There isn't a need for a program, or ecollar, to get your dog to kennel, or come out of.....to me, that's trust between you and the dog.

but very separate question from what's going on here.

I put that question up, because it will be hard to answer, unless you worked a good number of dogs. A book or video isn't gonna tell you how to fix, what you messed up. That imo, is where this could be going.
When you use an ecollar in a way, or situation, that the dog doesn't understand, you have made your hands full. That can turn into a big can of worms. When things are to hot, and the dog locks up, and doesn't want to move........while its inside the box, that's a bigger can of worms. We don't know the person, or the dog, that's teaching. There is a lot of stuff that can happen, if you are not paying attention, it will. If you don't have any idea what your doing, it will. If all you post is something from a book or video, that isn't your own idea, your feeding hickox, and no one else. When you get to work a bunch of the "Hickoxed" dogs, you will learn a lot. Until, that happens, I guess people will have a whole lot of posts, which shows there aren't many dogs getting worked. Thanks Jonesy

So, this went over you guys head earlier, don't know why, but it did.
If the dog likes the bird, why cant you use it? When it doesn't want to come out of the box, why couldn't you tape a wing to the body, play with it in front of the dogs nose, and toss it 4-7 ft in front of the kennel? You cannot say that a dog that likes birds, will not fly out of the box after it.
You can work on: the retrieve, the carry, the manners of the retrieve, obedience, kenneling, or un-kenneling.......and last but not least, getting the dog to think that "you are pretty cool stuff" Now, here is the best factor of it all........it cost about 5 dollars, 3.50 for the bird, and 1.50 for electrical tape.

[EvanG]

First teach the dog to go in, then teach it to come out. A dog learns three responses: to go away from you (kennel), to stop (whoa or sit), to come (here). They have to perform all three flawlessly. When a dog refuses to come from his kennel it is refusing to come. Period. It has to learn to come to you as well as to go. I de-bolt every dog I own and every dog I ever trained.

X 2!

EvanG

[Chukar12]

The methods taught by Hickox work exceptionally well, especially if you are George Hickox. In fairness, it is my belief if you study well and are willing to attend the seminars and be extremely studious and are committed to the methods, and you have some dog and e-collar experience, again, the methods work exceptionally well. If not, there are risks. As Jonesy has described avoidance training around a kennel can go terribly wrong if you are unfamiliar with the concept, do not know how to read a dog, and you are not proficient with e-collar timing.

I read too often thoughts and comments from folks that are not ready to train using these methods. Avoidance training is about education first, proper timing and proper stimulus. Without that you risk a major wreck that is difficult to fix. I really believe that new trainers and their puppies/adolescent dogs can benefit from some of the methods and thoughts both from Hickox and Huntsmith, and some of the most impressive dogs i have seen have come from both camps, I hope someday to have 1/10 the skills of George, Rick, Ronnie or Delmar...but for my money, when you go to break your young dog, if you do not have experience or proven experienced support by your side...you are best served using the West method or a variation thereof (Training With Mo)... to me the least risk in breaking comes from this camp. And for the LOVE OF GOD...if you have the resources go to somebody's class or seminar.

To the original poster. If you have clicked and treated for the dog to enter the kennel...stop doing that. When the dog enters cue it with your body and take a big step back away, when it comes out click and treat. In a day or two you can time a "come or here" to the dog coming out, click and treat and you have a basis for the here command. Save collar conditioning for come after you have overlayed some stimulus with the check cord...IMO it is much easier.

Joe

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

So, this went over you guys head earlier, don't know why, but it did.
If the dog likes the bird, why cant you use it? When it doesn't want to come out of the box, why couldn't you tape a wing to the body, play with it in front of the dogs nose, and toss it 4-7 ft in front of the kennel? You cannot say that a dog that likes birds, will not fly out of the box after it.
You can work on: the retrieve, the carry, the manners of the retrieve, obedience, kenneling, or un-kenneling.......and last but not least, getting the dog to think that "you are pretty cool stuff" Now, here is the best factor of it all........it cost about 5 dollars, 3.50 for the bird, and 1.50 for electrical tape.

Mixing any part of introductory field work (birds and guns) with introductory yard work, is totally contradictory to Hickox's training method.

Here are a couple of George's pertinent rules paraphrased:
Keep the yard work and introductory field work separate, and when the yard work is complete the two will merge in the field. It is not realistic to expect a dog to respond to a command in the field if it won't respond to the command in the yard. If it won't respond to the command in the yard, it certainly won't respond to it in the place of a bird.

Nate

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

And for the LOVE OF GOD...if you have the resources go to somebody's class or seminar.

Joe

x2

That's an uphill battle Joe. Kinda like chukar huntin'

You will learn a great deal more from a seminar than a DVD. However the Great Beginnings one does lay out a pretty good path for that first year. I've found that a lack of consistency is most people's problem in training a dog.

Nate

[quackwhacker]

There sure is a lot of info and different opinions. I have been working with Remi this week with no collar. It turns out that she really likes hotdogs. She is being less apprehensive in the kennel and is coming out when requested. I am a rookie trainer, but have a pretty good grasp on the training program I am using. I have decided to stay with George and get the most updated version of his program and also going to get a higher quality collar. Thanks again for all your comments. I think Remi and I are back on track.

[Meller]

So why not do all your training in the field? Not as confusing for the dog.

[Neil]

There sure is a lot of info and different opinions. I have been working with Remi this week with no collar. It turns out that she really likes hotdogs. She is being less apprehensive in the kennel and is coming out when requested. I am a rookie trainer, but have a pretty good grasp on the training program I am using. I have decided to stay with George and get the most updated version of his program and also going to get a higher quality collar. Thanks again for all your comments. I think Remi and I are back on track.

Good plan.

There have been a lot of dogs trained with the older T-T's.

[gonehuntin']

So why not do all your training in the field? Not as confusing for the dog.

Because your putting pressure on the dog where the dog makes it's living. Bad idea. The yard is for pressure, the field for birds.

[gonehuntin']

There sure is a lot of info and different opinions. I have been working with Remi this week with no collar. It turns out that she really likes hotdogs. She is being less apprehensive in the kennel and is coming out when requested. I am a rookie trainer, but have a pretty good grasp on the training program I am using. I have decided to stay with George and get the most updated version of his program and also going to get a higher quality collar. Thanks again for all your comments. I think Remi and I are back on track.

If you have to bribe and coax her, she has won the battle and defeated you. A dog obeys because it HAS to, not because it WANTS to.

[crackerd]

There sure is a lot of info and different opinions. I have been working with Remi this week with no collar. It turns out that she really likes hotdogs. She is being less apprehensive in the kennel and is coming out when requested. I am a rookie trainer, but have a pretty good grasp on the training program I am using. I have decided to stay with George and get the most updated version of his program and also going to get a higher quality collar. Thanks again for all your comments. I think Remi and I are back on track.

You may have a good grasp of the program, but -

By your handle "quackwhacker," you're a duck hunter, and by doing right by your breed, a Lab, for hunting waterfowl, you may want to have a rethink altogether with your training methods.

Evan Graham here and Mike Lardy, among others, espouse e-collar training that's almost antithetical to what you've got going on with Hickox. Their programs are for non-slip retrievers, not upland dogs, though it seems to me that it would be far easier applying their retriever training programs with e-collar use to flushing and pointing dogs than trying to extract any modern advanced retriever training information from Hickox with any proficiency.

MG

[Meller]

So why not do all your training in the field? Not as confusing for the dog.

Because your putting pressure on the dog where the dog makes it's living. Bad idea. The yard is for pressure, the field for birds.

Guess I should have said in the training field not the hunting field!

[4dabirds]

If you have to bribe and coax her, she has won the battle and defeated you. A dog obeys because it HAS to, not because it WANTS to.[/quote]
I think this is where the divergence of two training methodologies is happening and the crux of why there is a difference of opinion on this thread. The entire emphasis in George Hickox training program is based on the idea that a dog is motivated to please itself. The idea that a dog performs a certain task for reasons other then self preservation is rejected. The dog does not work for the master it only exhibits behaviors that are beneficial to the dog. Wether the dog is avoiding correction for compliance or seeking reward is viewed as one in the same. The dog does it because the dog wants to do it relative to the desire for the action. As lets say the desire for non compliance is greater then the correction the dog will chose non compliance. An example of this is when a dogs desire to chase the bird is so great that the level of correction has to be increased to guarantee that compliance. In any case the dog that is forced to obey will invariably need to be corrected more, depending on the dogs desire for the action. When training with a food reward, if done properly ,the dogs compliance is gained through using the dogs nature to to trick the dog into compliance. The dog is doing what is best for the dog at the moment and there fore there is no need t put any pressure on the dog. The pressure comes later on when the dog is exhibiting the wanted behaviors and these behaviors have become ingrained in the dogs repertoire of actions that it will take, to guarantee its survival. The reason for this is the dog that is trained this way will retain its natural style since the need for pressure is greatly reduced.

[gonehuntin']

If you have to bribe and coax her, she has won the battle and defeated you. A dog obeys because it HAS to, not because it WANTS to.

If I think this is where the divergence of two training methodologies is happening and the crux of why there is a difference of opinion on this thread. The entire emphasis in George Hickox training program is based on the idea that a dog is motivated to please itself. The dog does it because the dog wants to do it relative to the desire for the action. As lets say the desire for non compliance is greater then the correction the dog will chose non compliance. An example of this is when a dogs desire to chase the bird is so great that the level of correction has to be increased to guarantee that compliance. In any case the dog that is forced to obey will invariably need to be corrected more, depending on the dogs desire for the actio When training with a food reward, if done properly ,the dogs compliance is gained through using the dogs nature to to trick the dog into compliance. The dog is doing what is best for the dog at the moment and there fore there is no need t put any pressure on the dog.

The problem with this entire philosophy is that it has been tried for decades by both trainers and amateurs and it has always failed when a HIGH degree of training is demanded. The higher the degree of drive a dog has, the harder that dog is to train and the less likely that his training will be successful with this method. I think that if you look to the retriever world, and these guys basically wrote the book on ecollar training, there has not been an FC made in years that was not trained by the shotgun or ecollar.

Pointing dogs are somewhat different in that their training is no where near as precise, but still, I'm not aware of any champions that have NOT had pressure used to train them in some form.
I don't believe you can EVER have a NON-SLIP field dog trained without the use of pressure. Their tremendous desire will ALWAYS over ride their desire to please the trainer.

[4dabirds]

I dont know what you are talking about. I never said anything about not using correction. What I said was that the correction needed to be commensurate with the desire of the dog. The positive reinforcement is there specifically to create desire for a given behavior at a young age to imprint it into the dogs mind. once this is done the e-collar is overlaid to guarantee that the command is followed. If a dog needs to be burned to the pile to show competitive promise, would it not be better to have bred a dog that did not need this treatment to become a so called champion ? And if a dog that has had this treatment is bred ,as some sort of specimen of the breed , isn't this the antithesis of the whole idea of the competition in the first place?

[polmaise]

I am using the Hickox training program for my lab. She is 7 months old. She is great at going into the kennel. My problem is that she doesn't like to come out some times. Is this normal in the beginning?

Does Hickox training program cover or address the situation and method for dog going in or out of kennel?
Sorry I'm not familiar with the program.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

If you have to bribe and coax her, she has won the battle and defeated you. A dog obeys because it HAS to, not because it WANTS to.

If I think this is where the divergence of two training methodologies is happening and the crux of why there is a difference of opinion on this thread. The entire emphasis in George Hickox training program is based on the idea that a dog is motivated to please itself. The dog does it because the dog wants to do it relative to the desire for the action. As lets say the desire for non compliance is greater then the correction the dog will chose non compliance. An example of this is when a dogs desire to chase the bird is so great that the level of correction has to be increased to guarantee that compliance. In any case the dog that is forced to obey will invariably need to be corrected more, depending on the dogs desire for the actio When training with a food reward, if done properly ,the dogs compliance is gained through using the dogs nature to to trick the dog into compliance. The dog is doing what is best for the dog at the moment and there fore there is no need t put any pressure on the dog.

The problem with this entire philosophy is that it has been tried for decades by both trainers and amateurs and it has always failed when a HIGH degree of training is demanded.

Not true, and taken out of context. The Hickox training method is not entirely click and treat / positive reinforcement. Once the behavior becomes a conditioned response with use of the clicker, the command is reinforced with the e-collar / avoidance training.

The higher the degree of drive a dog has, the harder that dog is to train and the less likely that his training will be successful with this method.

Just the opposite is true. A dog with good prey drive is far easier to train than an apprehensive dog or one with little drive. Furthermore, all dogs can benefit from click and treat training regardless of their breeding or age. This type of training will open a dogs mind to learning, and help to fulfill its desire to please itself.

I think that if you look to the retriever world, and these guys basically wrote the book on e-collar training, there has not been an FC made in years that was not trained by the shotgun or e-collar.

Although George Hickox is an upland guy, he does breed and sell some pretty nice retrievers. I don't know of anyone who would thumb their nose at one of his dogs. All of his dogs are trained with positive reinforcement, and a transition is then made to the e-collar. DT systems designed the 2400 series of e-collars around his requests. The jump and rise options were actually included by his request.

Pointing dogs are somewhat different in that their training is no where near as precise, but still, I'm not aware of any champions that have NOT had pressure used to train them in some form.

The level to which a dog is considered finished is in the eye of the beholder. I've seen a lot of pointers that are trained to a far higher level than many retrievers are. I believe the current field trial champion "Shadow Oak Bo" was trained with positive reinforcement methods before avoidance training was used to shape him. All dogs have pressure put on them in training. Its really just a matter of perception on the dog's part.

I don't believe you can EVER have a NON-SLIP field dog trained without the use of pressure. Their tremendous desire will ALWAYS over ride their desire to please the trainer.

All dogs are far more motivated to please themselves than they are to please you.

Nate

[polmaise]

Coming from someone that trains many different breeds I never went for the 'It's a pointer,It's a retriever.It's a anything! when it came to behaviour. It's a dog was always what I had in front of me.
All dogs do what pleases them ,that's for sure!....The secret (if there is one) ,Is getting the dog to do what it wants to do , and that thing was actually what you wanted the dog to do!
Now that takes ''training''!.....How you do that will determine how much the dog has understood your 'training'?..er having the dog to do what it wanted to do. (That is positive training! without the fancy lingo in 'MY BOOK').
......
This dog, in the OP situation was not born with the issue of ''Not coming out of the kennel''?.. :roll:

[gonehuntin']

If a dog needs to be burned to the pile to show competitive promise, would it not be better to have bred a dog that did not need this treatment to become a so called champion ? And if a dog that has had this treatment is bred ,as some sort of specimen of the breed , isn't this the antithesis of the whole idea of the competition in the first place?

You don't understand the concept. No dog has to be "burned to the pile". They are burned to the pile so that they never, ever, refuse to go, no matter how cold the water, how big the water, or how tight the marks.

So the dogs that are trained this way, don't have to be, it is to ensure command compliance under the most rigorous of test situations.

[gonehuntin']

All dogs are far more motivated to please themselves than they are to please you.

Nate

I totally agree with that; that's why they require training.